Joey Bart's Unsmooth Swing

[rog]

I'm not trying to set you up here, Boagie, but I've been meaning to ask what it was about Joey Bart's swing that you felt wasn't smooth.

Regarding the Giants and Joey, I'm surprised the Giants haven't moved him up beyond Salem-Keizer.

Speaking of not moving guys up, the Blue Jays promoted Vladimir Guerrero, Jr. to AAA after he hit .402 in half a season in AA.  Prior to tonight, he was hitting .441 in AAA.  Clearly he's ready for the majors, and in the old days he would be brought up -- to sell tickets if nothing else.  But in today's game of service time, he likely won't be brought up until soon after the 2019 season begins.

Guerrero will likely be an even better hitter than his dad.  Junior is only 19.

[Islandboagie]

His swing just didn't seem fluid to me. I forget the exact mechanics of the swing itself, and it's hard to see those mechanics during a game at full speed. If I saw him more or in batting practice I might be able to give a more thorough evaluation. But it seems like his swing is more built for power than average.

As for Guerrero's kid being a better hitter than his pops, that's a pretty bold statement prior to him even taking a major league at bat. No doubt he's a good looking prospect, but his pops is on the fence for being a HoFer, in my opinion. His kid has a long way to go before anyone should claim he's a better hitter.

[Islandboagie]

oops, looks like Vlad is already in the HoF...I guess that happened this season? I stopped paying attention to the induction ceremonies when the HoF voters proved themselves to be a laughing stock. Anyways, that only proves my point more. Possibly? yes, likely? no. It's not likely anyone that hasn't played in the major leagues to be a better hitter than someone who finished his 16 year career with a lifetime .931 OPS.

[rog]

Let's place a gentlemen's bet on it, Boagie. You are right that the bar is set exceptionally high, but I and others think Junior just might leap over it.

One area Junior doesn't approach his father is in the field. Nor on the bases. (Dad once had 77 steals over two seasons.) But with the bat -- let me give you an idea:

Between AA and AAA -- and this is at the age of 19 -- Vladimir is hitting .397, with 18 homers in 290 at bats. Remember how his dad was a free swinger known as a bad ball hitter? I wonder how well he would have hit had he stayed in the strike zone.

We may find out. Junior has 31 walks and 35 strikeouts this season, which in today's game is exceptional bat control, especially for a power hitter. Especially, especially for a 19-year-old power hitter.

Senior hit .314 in Rookie League ball at age 19. Two years later he was a September call up by the Expos. Three years later he batted .302.

Not surprising that Dad snuck on you (and many others) and the Hall of Fame. Despite a .318 career average and 449 home runs, Senior didn't make the Hall in his first try. He wsa elected this past year though in his second try.

Gives us an idea now competitive entry into the Hall of Fame is right now. There are plenty of great players becoming eligible, and the steroids guys like Bonds, Clemens, McGuire and Sosa are taking away votes.

I'm something of a purist who would like to see the Hall made tighter than it is. But it's getting really log-jammed as it is.

I wish the Veteran's Committee (now renamed, although I forget what) hadn't voted in so many marginal candidates along the way, even though that would mean Orlando Cepeda wouldn't have made it. But I guess we can say the Hall is for Super Stars, not just Super Duper Stars. As great as he was, Cha Cha wasn't Willie McCovey. And, boy, were those two guys intertwined early in their careers.

[rog]

I have to admit, Boagie, that I didn't realize Vlad the Dad had a career .931 OPS. That's pretty spectacular, especially for a guy with as strong an arm as he had and legs to almost match. Senior had 181 career steals and 126 career outfield assists.

I would think that in even a slightly less competitive Hall of Fame environment, he would have been a first ballot Hall of Famer. Then again, for different reasons, Juan Marichal didn't make it until his second year of eligibility either.

[rog]

In a way we could look at Juanito as one of the most overlooked players ever.

One of the great pitchers of his era, Juan never won a Cy Young Award. That is surprising. That he got only one VOTE in his career is almost unfathomable. The vote was only a third-place vote, and I believe it came near the end of his career in 1971, when the Giants made the playoffs and surely seemed as if they would make the World Series.

Then not to make the Hall in his first year of eligibility, probably in great part because of his incident with Johnny Roseboro.

Overlooked.

[klaiggeb]

He has lots of hand movement at the start up, Rog, so I'm GUESSING that's what boagie was referring to.

But once the bat gets to hitting position, and mark my words, ALL OF THAT unnecessary movement as he's starting up, will be troublesome in the days to come.

Not that he won't be a good hitter, he likely will be.

But the more movement at start up, the more difficult it is to keep all the moving parts in sync.

[rog]

I think you're on to something here, Boly. I hadn't really looked before, but he has the hand movement, then draws the bat back, then -- and this is what I think Boagie may have seen -- pauses for an instant as his hands are still except for being drawn slightly upward, and then begins his swing. I think it may well be that brief pause that caught Boagie's eye. Boagie might want to go to some video of Joey -- which can be done in freeze frame by going off and on with the pause button -- and see if that is what it was.

I think you nailed it, Boly. Let's see if that is how Boagie saw it.

[rog]

It is indeed being pretty presumptuous to think that Junior Guerrero could become a better than his dad. But at 19, he's tearing up the high minors almost like Willie Mays did at 19. I think Junior is the best hitting prospect in quite a while. I hadn't read this particular article from Baseball America before, but it kind of shows Junior combines his dad's agression with a plate discipline his dad didn't come close to possessing.

While he certainly doesn't have the body and athleticism of his dad, it seems that he got some of Dad's best hitting traits while being able to rein himself into a hitter who combines power with bat control.

I'm excited to see him play, and I suspect we'll see so pretty early next April.

For Mark: Top 10 pick next year? And Mark, while I screw up a lot more than I do right, how about my call of Mookie Betts as a top 10 pick this year? If he wasn't, he should have been. It appeared Mookie hit in tough luck in 2017.

It will be intruiging next season to see if Joe Panik can bounce back from what I view as tough luck this year. If the Giants don't agree with me about the tough luck part, he could also be traded.

[klaiggeb]

If the giants don't make the post season, and make a good run in it, I think they'll be a huge house cleaning, which is what Randy wants, and Joe, likely will be a part of it.

There is still that ridiculous talk of moving Posey to 1B, and that disturbs me.

Go ahead, if you think you can do better, SF, and trade Belt.

But from what I've seen, Chris Shaw is NOT ready, not with his number of K's, and moving Belt leaves a huge hole there, too.

[rog]

With Joey very likely being here in 2020 (assuming my vision is clear) and Buster's having a no-trade clause, Boly, what WOULD you do? I too would likely go to Buster, tell him the house was going to be cleaned, and ask him if he would like to be traded. But if Buster says no, what would you do once Joey arrives?

If I were truly doing a house cleaning, I would pretty much try to trade everyone over 30. If Buster and Brandon Crawford refuse to waive their no-trade deals, at least they could provide valuable leadership in remaining.

I understand why the Giants, in a desperate attempt to stave off the wolves of the 2016 season, tried to buy time with the strategy they employed. What surprises me is that we, as objective Giants fans, didn't agree with Randy that a rebuild was the best strategy.

[rog]

As for Belt, he has suffered more injuries and slumped off his scorching start to the season (after being briefly horrible), but are we finally beginning to appreciate him? I have a sneaking feeling the Giants' infielders and pitchers do.

[klaiggeb]

Boagie, that's a great question.

We need a catcher and leadership in 2019 as we await Bart.

Let's make the following assumption; that Buster never regains his power because of that hip.

Posey catches in 2019. He has to.

I bring up Joey for a taste around August, depending, of course, how he's doing in AAA.

If he sucks, everything changes.

I would then speak with Buster and explain that Joey is the future, and that IF buster would like, he can be the back up and Tutor and get some time at 1B

Crawford I don't move.

His leadership and influence are too strong.

Belt, Panik and everyone is fair game.

[rog]

I would then speak with Buster and explain that Joey is the future, and that IF buster would like, he can be the back up and Tutor and get some time at 1B


Rog -- Telling Buster he is becoming a part-time player at two positions at the age of 33. Little question Joey should be good enough to move Buster to first base, but to tell the player who would likely still be your best proven player he's a part-timer would be overwhelmingly embarassing.

You just don't do that to a future Hall of Famer unless he's not healthy enough to play full time (which seems a slim possibility).

I do agree with you that moving Buster would be a strong statement in the right direction. But he's got a no-trade contract.

I don't believe Joey will be called up until mid-April of 2020. The Giants are really slow-playing him right now, which would seem to be a precursor that they're going to keep him in the minors for service-time reasons. If the Giants call Joey up next August and he doesn't go back to the minors for more than a month plus, he would become eligible for free agency after the 2025 season instead of after 2026.

Maybe we now see why Joey hasn't been promoted beyond Short-Season ball.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4754/joey-barts-unsmooth-swing#ixzz5OHylAKva

[klaiggeb]

I left out the part that said I'd offer to move Posey if he wanted.

And embarrassing?

That's not really an issue since it faces EVERY hitter and pitcher sooner or later.

Pence is the most recent for us.

I'd be extremely respectful to Buster, but just as Molina moved aside for him, the day IS coming when he will have to move aside for someone, too.

[rog]

Bengie wasn't nearly the player Buster is, and he was 35 at the time of the trade. Bengie was essentially done, retiring at the end of the season.

In support of your idea, the Marlins told a prime of his career Giancarlo Stanton that he had the choice of being traded or spending the rest of his career with a rebuilding team. Stanton, who apparently was quite happy in Miami, also had the dream of playing for the Yankees, so once New York entered the picture, Giancarlo was in.

Maybe the Giants force a similar situation with Buster, who might like to go to Atlanta in his native Georgia. Maybe Buster is glad to go under the new circumstances. Buster will have to swallow his pride when Joey comes up to take his position. He knows he'll eventually move to first base, but he probably didn't expected it that soon.

[klaiggeb]

He's going to have to swallow that pride, AND admit how bad he's been in the power department these last 2 or 4 years.

He's just not the player he was.

3 more horse crap at bats tonight.

[sfgdood]

Boly, if Buster does not go to 1B, where does he go when Joey Blart, Mall Cop is ready? The only other option is to trade him. I will remind you that only 4 hitters in the big leagues have a higher BA w/RISP than Buster and I guarantee Big League teams think much more highly of Buster than you do.

[klaiggeb]

Randy, we've been over and over this ground, and your argument just doesn't hold water.

Just look at the numbers, for Heaven's sake.

If hi BA w/RISP is so good, how come he' only 40 RBIs this year?

That's terrible.

Look up his career, bases loaded BA.

Last time I saw it, I think it was in the mid .220's

Then there is his power, or lack there of.

You can give me that BA numbers w/RISP all you want, but you can't get around this:

HRs; 22, 19, 14, 12, 5.

RBIs, 47, 56, 64, 61, 40

Why in the world would some team go crazy to trade for a guy whose best days aren't just behind him, but is a guy basically crippled, it seems, by a hip injury that's likely being going on for a couple of years.

The poor numbers seem to back that up.

Therefore, in light of the numeric proof, how you can latch on to that one stat to justify your argument is beyond me.

[sfgdood]

I'm not making an argument Boly...I'm just stating a fact. You can ignore or dismiss it if you like...but the fact is no more than 3 big leaguers hit for a better average in the clutch than Buster. 340 is clutch, no matter how you slice it

[klaiggeb]

I acknowledge his average with RISP, but even Orel Hersheiser pointed out on the Dodger broadcast last night that Posey has become little more than an "on base" guy.

No power, no drive on the balls he hits.

[klaiggeb]

And for me, the bottom line is two things that overwhelm the one you point out.

1-Lack of power and RBIS

2-His incredible number of "off balance," soft contact swings.

[rog]

He's going to have to swallow that pride, AND admit how bad he's been in the power department these last 2 or 4 years.

He's just not the player he was.


Rog -- I think we pretty much all agree with that. I think most of us also agree he's one of the best catchers in the game. You don't think the catcher voted ahead of him to start the All-Star game -- Contreras -- is better than Buster, do you?

The one catcher I thought was clearly ahead of Buster -- Gary Sanchez -- has had a horrible, injury-riddled season.

I think the ideal situation for Buster would be something like we've seen over his career -- playing fewer and fewer games behind the plate as the years pass by. That is a trend that Buster's career has followed. If he were traded in two years to a team where he could play about half his games behind the dish and half at first base, that might be an idea situation.

This season the Braves are splitting their catching duties between Kurt Suzuki and Tyler Flowers. Suzuki is nearly 35 years old. The Braves might be the one team Buster would accept a trade to. At least if the Giants decide to trade Buster there might be an avenue.

But don't think Buster isn't one of the best catchers in the game. And don't think he won't make the Hall of Fame barring injury.


Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4754/joey-barts-unsmooth-swing#ixzz5OMFEYDSX

[klaiggeb]

He still IS one of the THE best defensive catchers in the game.

Although last night was the SINGLE WORST NIGHT behind the plate I've ever seen from Posey.

He flat out screwed up at least 4 pitches I can recall, 1 of which went to the backstop upon which he barely got a glove.

But that aside, I have said from day one that he's:

Awkward, not smooth, but very, very good back there.

[rog]

Regarding Buster's home runs, RBI's, batting average with RISP, etc., you guys are both right. Buster's lack of power reduces his RBI's even if his batting average is the same. Even though he doesn't have the power, he has the reputation, and teams pitch him very carefully with RBI opportunities, resulting in fewer chances for him.

Here's something that could enter in too. With Buster not hitting the ball as sharply, teams probably aren't playing him as deep, meaning they are able to better hold runners at third base. Randy hate the idea of the "hockey assist" type of moving runners up with hits but that don't result in a run scored or RBI for the player, but some of what used to be RBI's for Buster are likely turning into, shall we call them "run assists?"

Buster isn't the hitter he once was, but he's still a very fine hitter for a catcher. And he's pretty good defensively. And while Boly questions Buster's RBI's, he feels Buster handles a pitching staff exceptionally well.

Buster is a fine catcher who is an important part of a team trying to win a pennant. If the team is rebuilding, getting his permission to trade him might result in a nice return. The Braves have a couple of catchers good enough to complement Buster's hitting. They have young pitchers who can benefit from Buster's experience and leadership. I believe Buster grew up a Braves fan, and he certainly wasn't far away.

If the Giants rebuild, they should talk Buster about waiving his no-trade clause to play for the Braves. No guaranteed he would do so, of course, but Buster and the Braves seem like a natural fit. Buster has trade value and would get salary off the books that could then be used elsewhere.

I believe Boly's idea is a good one. There is no guarantee Buster would waive his no-trade for the Braves or anyone else, but inquiring to see what Buster would like/be willing to do would seem to be a good move if the Giants begin rebuilding. They could look at what they can get for Buster and for Brandon Belt. If they trade both, perhaps they could look toward a platoon of Slater and Shaw, two young guys they would need help from.