Powell and Schu, or 23 skidoo?

[klaiggeb]

"23 skidoo (sometimes 23 skiddoo) is an American slang phrase popularized during the early 20th century. It generally refers to leaving quickly, being forced to leave quickly by someone else..."

Alonzo Powell received praises up the wazoo in Houston... but for us? I think he deserves to be shown the door.

Thus, 23 skidoo.

From what I can tell, he's really only helped one hitter, Gorkys who currently has more home runs than:

Posey
Longoria
McNuthin
Crawford..

and only one less than Belt.

We can't hit with RISP...

The power numbers are down for 3 of the 4 mentioned above...

And did I mention we can't hit with RISP?

I'm simply adding this to a long, LONG list of failures by Bobby Evans...who also should be told, 23 skidoo.


What? You think I shouldn't blame Powell?

Well, Evans and others blamed Righetti and Gardner, why can't the same rules be applied to these 2?

Thus, I can, and I will.

Show 'em the door along with Bobby Enema

[sfgdood]

Are you suggesting that Powell, Schu and Evans shuffle off to Buffalo before they get the heave ho?

[klaiggeb]

As far as I'm concerned, Randy, those 2 can shuffle off to the Far Side of the Moon, for all I care.

So much for "launch angles," and "exit velocity," and what ever other saber metric crap they come up with.

Either you can help hitters NOT named Gorkys, or you can't.

Clearly these two can't.

[rxmeister]

It always bugs me when people blame hitting coaches when the team can’t hit and pitching coaches when the team can’t pitch. It’s silly. It’s the players. If Alonzo Powell suddenly became the Dodgers hitting coach you think suddenly Machado, Kemp, Dozier, Taylor, Bellinger etc would suddenly turn into automatic outs? If Young takes over the Astros pitching staff they’d stop throwing 98 mph and getting people out? It’s not the coaches. And the whole “sabermetric crap” seems to be working for other teams. If you don’t embrace new methods, you’re a dinosaur waiting for the meteor to put you out of your misery

[klaiggeb]

The ONLY reason I'm blaming Powell and Schu is that they came over BECAUSE of saber metrics. Remember, we needed a 'fresh approach' on the mound and in the batter's box... thus, the new coaches.



Our offense last year was terrible. That's a fact.

But this year we added Longo and Mccutchen... and IMHO, considering the talent, we are worse.

Last year's team had all sorts of reasons why they didn't score a lot of runs, lack of talent topping the list.


This year, that ain't so.



With Longo and McCutchen and Posey and Crawford... we should be scoring a lot more often.


Only we aren't.

And we're regressing.



I mean for crying out loud!

Kuechel has a high 3 ERA, darned near 4... and we score 1 run?

With those bats?


Roger will make all sorts of noise that: "Longo and Mccutchen are on the down side of their careers... their numbers have been declining for years, and blah, blah, blah.

I say, horse crap!

These are proven major league hitters who are grossly UNDER achieving.

At least part of that, I say a lot of that, is coaching.


So I put these questions to you, then, Mark.

1-Why aren't we scoring more runs? In the second half in particular.

2-Why are we SO TERRIBLE the moment a runner gets into scoring position?


I'm blaming the coaches for a couple of things;

1-They came in preaching launch angle and exit velocity...it ain't working with THESE hitters. The coaches need to adjust to the HITTERS, and what their strengths are, not the other way around.

2-I see ZERO adjustments in the offense of this team. But runners on base and the fold. They simply choke on their own anxieties.

A coaches job is to watch and tweak and help...I question their ability to do that with THIS group.


Powell stuff might have played well in Houston, but it's not playing well here.


Something has to give, either Randy's right, and we blow up the team, or the coaches take a flying hike.

[klaiggeb]

As to Saber metrics, I take them with a grain of large salt.

Just because they are "the latest thing," DOESN'T make the other ways wrong or out dated.

And they cannot and will not work with everyone.

Kruk and Kuip have been saying that since Spring Training.



I don't get it when a new thing comes down the pipe and all of a sudden, you're a dinosaur if you don't start doing it.


Of course, I'm a dinosaur, so what else would I say?

[Islandboagie]

Here's an idea...how about we get someone who could hit to teach our guys to hit? That seems like a no-brainer to me. Fire these two jokers and hire Bonds and Burrell.

[rog]

Bobby Enema


Rog -- I love you, Boly, but rarely if ever have I been so disappointed in you.

[rog]

Powell stuff might have played well in Houston, but it's not playing well here.


Rog -- And that's really awful, given that the hitters he has here are even better.




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[rog]

Roger will make all sorts of noise that: "Longo and Mccutchen are on the down side of their careers... their numbers have been declining for years, and blah, blah, blah.

I say, horse crap!


Rog -- I am saddened that you don't let the facts get in your way, Boly.





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[rog]

As to Saber metrics, I take them with a grain of large salt.


Rog -- And that is a huge mistake, Boly. Are sabermetrics the be-all, end-all? Of course they aren't. But when combined with more traditional baseball knowledge, they have significantly improved the game.

I'm older than you are, but my mind seems to be far more open. And that's a big advantage.

Open your mind, study, analyze, and see if you don't learn -- a lot. MLB itself has.



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[rog]

I don't get it when a new thing comes down the pipe and all of a sudden, you're a dinosaur if you don't start doing it.


Rog -- IMO you're not a dinosaur if you don't start doing it, but you ARE a dinosaur if you don't study it in detail with an OPEN mind before rejecting it.

By the way, Boly, did you take the scouting quiz? It's referenced in the thread "How good a scout are you?" It's a multiple choice test, with four possible answers. Boagie doubled the odds by getting five out of ten. I'm curious to see how you do, Boly. I think it favors the old-timers a bit, since some of the players are old-timers.





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[rog]

By the way, Don is the oldest of us all -- and he may be the most progressive and open-minded about topics non-Posey.

[klaiggeb]

Bobby Enema


Rog -- I love you, Boly, but rarely if ever have I been so disappointed in you.

***boly says***

I've tried to explain this to you before, Rog, more times than I can remember.

I love sarcastic nicknames.

If you didn't like that one, you're going what I come up with in the future, though likely none will be as good as boagies; Autistic Jacksonl.

[klaiggeb]

Roger will make all sorts of noise that: "Longo and Mccutchen are on the down side of their careers... their numbers have been declining for years, and blah, blah, blah.

I say, horse crap!


Rog -- I am saddened that you don't let the facts get in your way, Boly.

***boly says***

Once again, Rog, you either missed my point, or only read what you wanted to read in what I wrote.

Both of those guys are still TALENTED players.

McCutchin in 31, Longoria is 32.

Those are the ages when players should be just on the other side of their primes, but still playing at a relatively high level, not flailing around like they've never played the game.

To believe otherwise is, to me, just nuts, and the numbers of similar players justify my point.



Declining some, yes, but not what these two are doing.

Here are some examples of similar type players.

Each player has his average listed at age 31. Other averages for the same players show subsequent years.

JT---.284

Ellis Burks--290, 292

Felipe Alou---274, 317, 282

Vizquel--330, 287


And I just selected 4 random players.

Only Vizquel was not a guy who hit with some power, and I selected HIM because when he first came into the league you could knock the bat out of his hands.



You're incorrect here, Roger, and not by a little.

These guys should STILL be performing at an acceptable level.

[rog]

McCutchin in 31, Longoria is 32.

Those are the ages when players should be just on the other side of their primes, but still playing at a relatively high level, not flailing around like they've never played the game.


Rog -- Did you read what I posted about these guys -- especially Longoria -- last winter?

Let's focus on Longoria. Last season he was a contact hitter, not a power hitter. I've never seen a guy make such a clear negative adjustment from one year (2016) to another (2017).

I realize you expected more from Evan than the Giants have gotten, but that is because you haven't fully researched Evan.

I understand your thing about age. I don't know if it's because the pitching is so much faster and better, but most hitters are declining faster than they used to.

Longoria hasn't been the same hitter since 2013 (although he was pretty good in 2016). It's clear as day if you look at his numbers. McCutchen hasn't been what he was since 2014 or 2015, although he was pretty good last season. There was simply little reason to think either player -- especially Longoria -- would be a lot better than they have been, especially since they play at AT&T Park.

Now, the timing of their hits has been horrible, but some of that is random. A guy doesn't simply stop hitting in just one situation unless it's random.

Evan's timeliness hasn't been as good, but overall he has had essentially the same season he had in 2014, 2015 and 2017. We probably shouldn't have been expecting 2013 and prior or 2016 numbers. Neither of these guys -- especially Andrew -- has hit in the best of luck either. And I think Joe Panik has been one of the most unlucky hitters in the majors.

We overestimated the Giants the first half of 2016, and we overestimated what they would be this season. Given the injuries, I think the Giants have played at the high end of their spectrum.


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[rog]

And I just selected 4 random players.


Rog -- None of the four faced the pitching today's hitters face. We're comparing apples and oranges. The game has changed -- a LOT.

[rog]

By the way, we're saying that the Giants' pitching coaches had their jobs taken away unfairly and then using that to justify taking away the job of the new coaches. Isn't that the hobgoblin of little minds?

[klaiggeb]

Go back and ready Bobby E's comments at the end of the last season.

I'll paraphrase: "We need a fresh approach."


Really?


That doesn't fly with me, and it obviously DOES fly with you.

But to answer your questions, yes, I do think they had their jobs jerked away unfairly.

[sfgdood]

Bobby Evans will go down in Giants lore as the man who killed the dynasty

[Islandboagie]

If you don't do your job correctly it shouldn't be safe.

[klaiggeb]

Man! do I agree with both you and Randy, boagie!

[rog]

Both of those guys are still TALENTED players.

McCutchin in 31, Longoria is 32.

Those are the ages when players should be just on the other side of their primes, but still playing at a relatively high level, not flailing around like they've never played the game.


Rog -- If you read and understood what I posted about Evan over the winter, you realize that he was a very different hitter in 2017 than he had been in 2016. Or, really, than he had ever been in his career. For the first time I could see, he was a PASSIVE hitter.

He's changed back again this season. (I mentioned there might have been an injury involved in 2017.) But he hasn't been the same hitter since 2013. I know you're skeptical of sabermetrics, but if you had understood them and looked at Evan (or even paid attention to and believed me), you would have seen that it was unlikely that he would hit close to the Evan who might have been on his way to the Hall of Fame had he kept it up. You would have realized that his winning the Gold Glove in 2017 was likely a fluke.

It was kind of like your not understanding when I said that Denard Span was a platoon player. As was and is Pablo. As is Alen Hanson.

With Denard, your challenge came because you looked only at his career splits, not how his hitting against left-handers had declined from where in his rookie season it was even BETTER than his hitting against right-handers to where for most of the several years right before joining the Giants, his hitting against southpaws had really fallen off.

Contrary to the popular saying, Boly, statistics don't lie. But they can certainly be misinterpreted. Misinterpret them -- or simply ignore them -- at your own risk.



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[rog]

But to answer your questions, yes, I do think they had their jobs jerked away unfairly.


Rog -- I don't know whether they lost their jobs fairly or not. But my point was that your saying they lost their jobs, so it would be fair if the new guys lost theirs, is unfair.




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[rog]

Go back and ready Bobby E's comments at the end of the last season.

I'll paraphrase: "We need a fresh approach."


Rog -- I'm right with you here, Boly. The Giants didn't need a fresh approach. The old one worked just fine in 2017.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4735/powell-schu-23-skidoo?page=1#ixzz5Nk16YmRE

[rog]

Both of those guys are still TALENTED players.

McCutchin in 31, Longoria is 32.

Those are the ages when players should be just on the other side of their primes, but still playing at a relatively high level, not flailing around like they've never played the game.


Rog -- Evan Longoria's #1 comp as a hitter is Eric Chavez. Eric was a fabulous hitter through age 26. After that he wasn't the same hitter. Evan was a fabulous hitter through age 27. With the exception of 2016, he hasn't been the same hitter since. Quite a similarity, isn't it?




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[klaiggeb]

Ahhh, I see.

I gave four or five examples...you give one.


How is that not called cherry picking?

[rog]

I understand how you could think this is cherry picking, Boly, since you gave four examples to my one. But whereas your examples were picked at random and may have been relevant to Evan or not especially so, I used as my example Evan's #1 comp -- the player whose hitting came the closest to Evan's at this point.

Not all Evan's comps had the great followed by mediocre pattern, to be sure, but his #1 comp certainly did.

I guess what I'm saying is that if one were to pick one example, the best choice would be a player's #1 comp. Four players chosen at random are intriguing, but not necessarily relevant.