sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 29, 2018 22:25:21 GMT -5
Here we are 8 games after the AS break, falling deeper and deeper into the pit of despair. The additions from last offseason have all proven to be brutally non-productive. It would have been a much more hope-filled season had the Giants followed my advice and begun to unload useless veterans insted of adding to them. The longer you put off rebuilding, the more you wind up languishing in mediocrity...just good enough to give your fans false hope year after year and never giving them a real chance of going to the ship anytime soon. This season was everything I feared.
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Post by Islandboagie on Jul 29, 2018 23:19:21 GMT -5
Randy, while you're crying in your beer let me point out something that is obvious to most of us, but tends to escape you...we can't unload our veterans because they are under contracts that makes it nearly impossible to trade them. This is a result of what happened a few years back that YOU wanted. They were aggressive in the free agent market, and you and Boly were singing Bobby Evans' praises. Now you're taking the "I told you so" stance? That's laughable.
Hey I had hope for this season, I always have hope. But do remember who I wanted this off season? I believe my main two guys I wanted just smacked us around for 4 games...Lorenzo Cain and Christian Yelich. I believe I mentioned getting Cain before last season ended, and when the Stanton circus was in full force, I kept saying I'd rather the Giants trade for Yelich. Do you remember that? If not I can pull the posts for you.
I didn't want Samardjiza at 19 mil a season. I didn't want Melancon, Span or Jackson. I liked getting Longoria because it got rid of Span, and I thought Longoria would be a decent power bat, and he actually has been. Prior to his injury I believe he was leading the team in homeruns and rbis. But we would have never needed Longoria if we had kept Duffy whom I was against trading for Matt Moore, who ended up failing as well.
I didn't hate McCutchen deal, but I wasn't all for it either. I actually believed the biggest loss in last season's trades was Crick. Thus far I've been correct.
I have been against Evan's strategy since day one. The only one I was undeniably for was the Cueto signing. Cueto was great in 2016, but has struggled with injuries since. I will admit I was wrong about that one, but Cueto has come much closer to earning his money than many others.
You're welcome to discuss the Giants mistakes, but don't play the "I told you so" game with me, because you won't win that argument.
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Post by rxmeister on Jul 30, 2018 7:35:05 GMT -5
Saying you wanted Christian Yelich is like saying you want Mike Trout. You can’t pat yourself on the back and think you’re right, because the Giants have a weak farm system and the Brewers don’t and they put a package together for him that we couldn’t match. As for Cain, he would have been an awful signing. You don’t look at a long term deal for a 30 year old plus player and say it’s a good deal in year one. Get back to me in two years. His power has already declined and his speed will be gone by then too. Longoria was a terrible trade because he’s 32 and has FOUR years left after this. He’s already declining and was last year as well. That’s a good trade if he had two years left or less. Cutch was a great trade, I thought. Yeah he’s been disappointing and he’s declining too (although it could be our lousy hitter’s Park) but they’re not stuck with him and they can give him a QO and get a pick when he leaves. And if he takes the QO, it’s just one more year. So not only can Randy not say I told you so, but you’re not being quite accurate either.
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rog
New Member
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Post by rog on Jul 30, 2018 7:37:57 GMT -5
You made a lot of good points here, Boagie. I was with you for the most part, but I thought the Moore deal was worth the risk. I still don't know what went wrong there, but then again there are times pitchers never come back from Tommy John surgery, and I guess that's what happened.
I liked the McCutchen deal too. I didn't think Crick would ever find his control, and I figured if things didn't work out with McCutchen, the Giants could flip him right about ... now.
I was right with you in really liking the Cueto signing, and if not for injury, I think that one would have worked out pretty well. Then again, older players carry a higher chance of injury -- especially pitchers. If Cueto gets healthy, that deal could still work out decently -- although one would have thought the early seasons of the contract would be better than the late years, and Johnny would need to pitch pretty well from now on in.
I was against the Samardzija deal, although he did some excellent things last season. Aside from his very fine 2014 season though, he has yet to put it together. Fortunately Jeff is making only $18 million per season, not $19 million. That million saved could make all the difference!
Yelich would have been an excellent trade, but I don't know what the Giants would have given up to get him. Although Lewis Brinson has had a very tough season for the Marlins, he was one of the top prospects at the time of the trade. The Giants didn't have any prospect to compare with him.
There were three other prospects involved in the deal: Isan Diaz was a top 100 prospect who is a middle infielder with power. Monte Harrison is another top 100 prospect, and he has power and the ability to steal bases. Jordan Yamamoto is the least of the prospects, but he has posted a 2.51 and 1.92 ERA the past two seasons between High A and AA.
The Brewers have done quite well in that Yelich has easily met expectations, and the four prospects haven't yet established themselves. See though how the Brewers' prospects might have looked just a tad better than the Giants' prospects? With the exception of Yamamoto, only Heliot Ramos among the Giants' prospects were ranked as high as the Brewers' players.
Since he is ground ball hitter who is a good fielder who can play any outfield position, Yelich was tailor made for the Giants. The problem is that the Giants' prospects weren't tailor made for the Brewers.
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Post by Islandboagie on Jul 30, 2018 10:32:45 GMT -5
Mark- Saying you wanted Christian Yelich is like saying you want Mike Trout.
Boagie- Except Mike Trout wasn't being shopped around, and Yelich was. Plus, I like Yelich, but he's no Mike Trout.
We put together a package for Stanton that the Marlins found desirable, what makes you think they couldn't have done the same with Yelich? I believe they could have, and the return would have been worth it.
The problem with the Giants these days is they're too worried about what they're giving up and not worried enough about the return. They could have packaged Arroyo, Beede and Crick and that would have maybe landed us Yelich or at least opened the conversation.
If we had Yelich batting third and Cain leading off it would have significantly changed the dynamic of our lineup.
I'm not patting myself on the back, Mark. I was just objecting to Randy telling me he told me so. I like Randy, but sometimes he is dillusional.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 30, 2018 10:46:26 GMT -5
you convinced me Boagie...infinite years of patching up the dike with aging vets way past their prime and hovering around 500 is the way to go...good call
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Post by Islandboagie on Jul 30, 2018 13:42:53 GMT -5
Where did I say I was ok with that strategy?
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rog
New Member
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Post by rog on Jul 30, 2018 22:12:05 GMT -5
We put together a package for Stanton that the Marlins found desirable, what makes you think they couldn't have done the same with Yelich? Rog -- The Stanton and Yelich situations were quite different. Stanton was owed what used to be the national debt, while Yelich was being paid from $8 million this season to $14 million in 2022, which a $15 million option for 2023. The Marlins were mostly trying to get RID of Stanton's contract, while they were far more interested in their return for Yelich. The Giants were in the running for Stanton because they were one of the few teams willing to pay the freight for Stanton. They were out of the running for Yelich because they didn't have nearly the right prospects to deal. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4715/say-told#ixzz5MnWf2mPk
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rog
New Member
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Post by rog on Jul 30, 2018 22:15:48 GMT -5
Adam Duvall has been traded to the Braves in what is being described as a trade of unwanted assets. Duvall is considered what I guess they might call the least unwanted of the assets dealt. Duvall may create a platoon with the struggling Ender Inciarte, who hits right-handers better as Duvall hits southpaws.
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rog
New Member
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Post by rog on Jul 30, 2018 22:18:16 GMT -5
Andrew McCutchen is slumping at the wrong time for trading him. The Giants might be better off holding onto him, hoping he can snap out of it and improve his value for waiver trading. Or they could just get Andrew out of the way and play the youngsters more. Chances seem good though that the Giants will simply hold onto him.
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rog
New Member
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Post by rog on Jul 30, 2018 22:19:43 GMT -5
A question for Boagie: What would have offered for Yelich?
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Post by Islandboagie on Jul 30, 2018 23:11:03 GMT -5
That's a tough question...that would depend on what they were looking for. I'm sure a deal could have been made if the Giants where serious in getting Yelich.
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Post by rxmeister on Jul 31, 2018 10:20:03 GMT -5
We had the assets for Stanton because as Rog said, less was required because we were taking on the entire salary. We couldn’t compete on Yelich or Ozuna, so they went to teams with much stronger farm systems. I go back and forth on trading Cutch. The Giants are a .500 team, but I’d rather watch that than the garbage we watched last year, and there’s still two months left.
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rog
New Member
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Post by rog on Jul 31, 2018 10:34:15 GMT -5
Would you have given up Ramos, Panik, Arroyo, Duggar and Suarez for Yelich? You might be saying yes, given that both Ramos and Panik are having down seasons.
Well, guess what? That probably wouldn't have been enough. And because of Yelich's salary, the Giants would have been $7 million over the cap.
Last winter the Giants simply didn't have enough in the cupboard to land Yelich. The Marlins wanted prospects, particularly it appears. One of the Giants' biggest weaknesses? Prospects.
Ramos was the prized prospect, and the Giants are said to have refused to part with him. He wasn't even a part of the Stanton package. The problem with Ramos from the Marlins' standpoint was that he was so young and raw. He hit last season, but he also struck out like crazy. We're talking about a guy who might not be ready until 2021 or 2022 -- and who might never be ready at all. Brinson was a much higher rated prospect, and he'd already played a little in the major leagues.
You say you're sure the Giants could have put together a package for Yelich, Boagie, but you don't really have much idea what it would have been. Maybe the Marlins would have wanted to have Bumgarner added to the package -- but probably not, since they would lose Bumgarner to free agency after next season. Do you think the Giants would have wanted to include Bumgarner in the trade, even if the Marlins had wanted him?
The Giants simply weren't a match for a Yelich trade. I'm open to your ideas to the contrary.
Meanwhile let's think of the Giants with Yelich but without Bumgarner, Panik, Duggar and Suarez. I don't see any improvement, do you?
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