E-6?

[rog]

I just wanted to ask again before I forget it, didn't Crawford's play on the game-winning hit Sunday have to be an error?  Didn't it seem like he simply missed the ball?

There are some plays where I HATE to see an error called, given how tough the play is.  As far as infield hit or error, I think the hit was the much better call.  But didn't Crawford's whiffing on the ball allow the winning run to score from third? 


Maybe the official scorer felt it was such a difficult play that Crawford shouldn't be charge with an error no matter what.  I would probably have agreed if the ball had short-hopped Brandon, but it didn't.  The ball simply went under/in front of his glove.

And, no, I'm not simply trying to get Crawford called for an error for any ulterior motive.  I still think he may be one of the 10 best defensive shortstops to have played the game, and few if any have been smoother.  Omar Vizquel may have been more graceful (He was/is after all an artist.), but Brandon makes plays so smoothly that it's almost as if he WILLED the ball to first base, not having to even bother to to go to the trouble of catching and transferring it.  Has any shortstop been a combination of smoother and stronger on the pivot?

Speaking of pivots, as I mentioned earlier, isn't Hanson's one of the worst from second base?

[klaiggeb]

I wouldn't have scored it an error, Rog.

THAT was one tough play. Do or die, as the saying goes, and not deserving of an error

[rog]

I understand your thinking here, Boly, and I most certainly would agree with it if the lead runner was on third base. But the lead runner was on second, and Brandon's #1 responsibility to avoid a run scoring was to at least knock the ball down.

The batter deserved a hit, but just as if Brandon had overthrown first base after making a nice pickup, he would have received an error allowing the winning run to score, he should have been charged an error for allowing the ball to get by him, which is what enabled the run to score.

The run didn't score on the batter's hit. The run scored on Brandon's error.

Tough error? You bet. But just as if Brandon had fielded the ball and overthrown first base, it was an error. I believe the league reviews such plays, and if they're on top of it, they will change the play to a hit and an error, taking away the batter's RBI.

The batter certainly deserved a hit. But did he deserve an RBI? If not, then the play involved an error. Brandon likely couldn't have gotten the batter at first no matter HOW good a play he made. But his first responsibility was to keep the winning run from scoring. He failed to do so.

And please don't take this as a criticism of Brandon's fielding. He's a GREAT fielder. I'm merely talking about how the play should have been scored.

To be honest, I'm somewhat shocked that no one seems to have picked up on this. Not just here, but anywhere else I can find.

[rog]

I believe that if we asked him, Brandon will say he should have caught the ball -- or knocked it down at the very least. He might say something like "I thought I could get him out, so that's the play I made." If he were being totally candid, he might even add that since it was such a tough play, he was focusing somewhat on his footwork to enable him to get off the best possible play, and that could have broken his concentration on the ball just enough to make the difference.

I don't think Brandon would have used any type of excuse though, even if he was concentrating on his footwork in addition to the ball.

[klaiggeb]

Right on the button, Rog. I agree.

One of Brandon's strengths, as they CONTINUALLY have pointed out over the last 7 games, is his 'instant,' it seems, recognition of what to do.

Likely he feels he made a mistake, and maybe should have either laid back, or charged harder.

All of which is great for arm chair QBs... but he had less than a 1/2 second to make and instinctive choice.

I'll take HIS instincts over any other SS in the game today, right or wrong on that play

[rog]

I actually like Andrelton Simmons' instincts even better, but everyone here is aware of how I feel about both Simmons and Crawford (both of whom are great). Crawford's instincts are fabulous and one of the things I like about him best. He rarely makes a bad play. But I've seen Simmons turn his instincts into outs more often.

As for Brandon's play, I didn't see anything wrong with it other than that he missed the ball. If he COULD have charged the ball harder, that would have been an advantage, since he could have fielded the ball higher and closer. But at the time I didn't see evidence of that.

It would have been a very tough error, and because of that I can understand why the official scorer WOULDN'T have wanted to give Brandon an error. But the fact is that the runner was allowed to score from second base, which shouldn't have been the case. Brandon deserves the error not for the excellent effort he gave to prevent a hit, but because he missed the ball, and it allowed the winning run to score.

I'm not putting down Brandon's fielding. Quite the opposite. I think he's a marvelous fielder. But the results of the play pretty much demanded an error be called, and it couldn't have been to anyone aside from Brandon.

And coming back to his instincts, as is almost always the case, I didn't see anything wrong with them in this case. When the play happened, I didn't see the ball short-hop him, but I felt it must have. Otherwise how would he have missed the ball? But in this case he did. I didn't go back to see the play again with this in mind, so I could be off base, but my best guess is what I mentioned earlier -- that he was focusing on the position of his feet when he fielded the ball, which most certainly could have allowed him to get the ball to first base more quickly, and might have suffered from the multiple focus.

I guess he could have laid back on the ball, but there is no guarantee it wouldn't have bounced over his head on the second bounce. I thought he played it the best way possible -- except that he missed the ball.

[Islandboagie]

And there it is, we all knew it was coming.

[rog]

I didn't. I was almost shocked that Brandon missed the ball. He would likely tell you he was shocked too.

It does go to show that a lot goes into making tough plays look easy, such as fine footwork. And once in a while I would think that working on a play with difficult footwork takes just a little off the concentration on the ball. I don't know what happened, and I haven't examined Brandon's footwork, but while the play was a tough one, he would keep the ball on the infield 95 times out of 100 IMO. Whether he could have gotten the out was problematic, but I believe he is as good coming in on a ball as anyone. His smoothness and quick exchange give him an advantage on the play over other shortstops who have lesser tools at short.

[rog]

Anyway, Boagie, as tough as the play was, don't you think Brandon should have received an error? Getting the out at first base was a REALLY tough play, and might not have even been possible. But keeping the ball on the infield wasn't a particularly tough play.

The question one should ask himself as official scorer is, how did the runner get from third to home? Hey, remember that if the Brandon keeps the ball on the infield, the bases would still be loaded and there would still have been about a one in three chance the runner would score to end the game anyway. And if the runner DIDN'T score, there was still about a 50% chance the Giants would lose anyway. So Brandon only took the Giants' 33% chances of winning and turned them into 0%. They would likely have lost the game anyway.

But he did allow the runner to score from third base, and that shouldn't have happened.

[Islandboagie]

He should have made the play, but it was going to be a tough play. Crawford decided to try to get the out at first instead, it was a judgement call, and not necessarily the wrong one due to the situation. Do you really think that's an error for someone to try to get the last out of an inning rather than eating the ball and hoping to get the next out? It's easy to sit here now and say that maybe he could have done that, but should it really be an error? I don't believe so.

It would be like charging two errors to anyone who misplays a grounder that allows a run to score...one error not coming up with the ball, and another error for not smothering it so the run doesn't score.

[rog]

Do you really think that's an error for someone to try to get the last out of an inning rather than eating the ball and hoping to get the next out?


Rog -- No, I don't. I thought Brandon made just the right play to get to the ball and give himself the best chance to throw the batter out. He simply missed the ball. That was the error. It's similiar to a first baseman on a low throw. If the ball hits the dirt, it's not his error. If the throw comes in on the fly, it's his. The ball didn't short-hop Brandon. If it had and he simply hadn't been able to field it and it bounce away, I wouldn't have given him an error.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4699/6#ixzz5MPuBgCzR

[rog]

It would be like charging two errors to anyone who misplays a grounder that allows a run to score.


Rog -- No, it would be like having a runner on second, having him advance to third when the fielder booted the ball, allowing the batter to reach first base safely, and then allowed the runner to score with a bad throw.

Brandon didn't deserve an error for allowing the batter to reach first base, or the lead runner to reach third, or the back runner to reach second. He deserved the error because he missed the ball, allowing the lead runner to not just reach third, but to score.

I will be surprised if MLB doesn't change the scoring on that play -- assuming they look at it, which I believe they do.

Remember, the scorer was initially going to give the Game 7 World Series win to Madison Bumgarner when he realized that Madison wasn't the pitcher when the winning run scored and thus deserved a save instead. Didn't change the result in any way, but it did change the official scorer's scoring.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4699/6?page=1#ixzz5MPv4FVE1

[rog]

Speaking of Game 7 of the World Series, I have commented that it might have been worth sending Alex Gordon home with two outs on the misplay by Gregor Blanco and Juan Perez if Alex had busted it right out of the box. That would have made it interesting, since Brandon Crawford is an excellent relay man and would likely have thrown Gordon out and saved us the suspense of Madison having to face the potential winning run with the tying run on third.

[rog]

And speaking of the scoring we were discussing, the play has been changed to a hit and an error. Tough error, but it was the right call. I suspect Brandon would tell you the same.

[Islandboagie]

It would be like charging two errors to anyone who misplays a grounder that allows a run to score.


Rog -- No, it would be like having a runner on second, having him advance to third when the fielder booted the ball, allowing the batter to reach first base safely, and then allowed the runner to score with a bad throw.

Boagie- clearly that's two errors.

I'm saying catching the ball was difficult, and if that is ruled a base hit...then the runner scored on the base hit, not Crawford's inability to smother the ball. You can't give an error for not playing it safe. Either you give him an error for not catching it (which I wouldn't say was an error) or it's a base hit that ended up in the outfield, and that's why the run scored.

[rog]

You are correct that two errors would be scored on the play I described. On this play it was eventually ruled a single and an error. As I posted earlier, I would have been surprised if the scoring weren't changed. And as I later posted, it has been.

Hit and an error. As I said, a tough error. But an error nonetheless.

[Islandboagie]

You don't get it, but that's ok.

[rog]

What is it that I don't get? The play was scored precisely the way I said it should be (under the rules of official scorekeeping).

You keep saying I don't get it, but you can never seem to come up with good examples. Anything close to an example that you have given thus far has been opinion, not a case of either one of us not getting it.

When I am right on a topic and you say I don't get it, something is awry.

I suspect on this play you will say that I don't get that it was a tough play, that Brandon had to make an instantaneous decision on how to play the ball (as Boly pointed out) and that he shouldn't be charged with an error just because he didn't take the safer choice. Except that I'm not entirely sure there was a safer way to play it (A short hop could have also gotten away, and if he had laid back, the ball might have jumped over his head), I understand what you're saying here. I could take you through every step of the play as I remember it, second by second. As I said, it was a tough error.

But the fact remains that the error on the play was caused by Brandon's flat-out missing the ball. It was a tough play, but he reached out his glove and the ball simply went in front of and under his glove. I took you through what may have been going through Brandon's mind that helped cause him to miss the ball.

I explained that the runner scored from third base because Brandon let the ball get away and that while he may not have been able to get the runner at first base, the play deserved an error under official scorekeeping rules. I mentioned that it was a tough error, but an error nonetheless.

Aside from being right and explaining pretty much everything about the play, what was it you expected from me?

If I'm wrong when I'm right, no wonder it's tough for me to be considered right here.

I'm almost certain Brandon would agree that it was an error. I called it an error; the official scorer or the league ultimately called it an error; and Brandon would almost certainly agree it was an error. What is your point?