Bart to the ballgame

[rog]

Two for four with another homer for Joey Bart today.  Joey now has 7 homers in 42 at bats with Salem-Keizer.  I wonder if he'll be able to hit with a wood bat?

Feeling any better about the Giants' draft this year, Randy?

Ten years ago Buster Posey began his minor league career in the Rookie League, as did Bart.  Like Joey, Buster was promoted to Salem-Keizer before the season ended.  Buster was called up to San Jose for the playoffs.  Joey might know the way to San Jose before the regular season ends.

I would think a promotion for Joey to Low A Augusta should be coming by the end of the month if he keeps this up.  Then maybe a step up to San Jose.  Or perhaps even a skip directly to San Jose, which doesn't appear likely to make the playoffs this season.

Buster started the 2009 season at San Jose, catching fellow first round pick Tim Alderson in San Jose's season opener and then Madison Bumgarner in the second game.  Buster made it to San Francisco late that season as a September callup.  One would think that at this point Bart is on at least as fast a track as Buster was.

Remember too that the Giants sent Buster out to AAA to begin the 2010 season, the stated reason being that he needed more catching experience.  Keeping him away from free agency an extra season might have had something to do with it too.

We're looking at a very small sample with Bart, and remember that while he has looked like a right-handed Babe Ruth for Salem-Keizer, he started slowing in the Arizona Rookie League.  But it seems quite possible that Joey might begin the 2020 season with the Giants, putting him must ahead of Buster's time table.  I don't think the Giants will feel it necessary to send Joey down to AAA to begin the 2020 season to work on his catching.

The Giants of course won their first World Series in 56 years in 2010, with Buster being a key contributor.  That doesn't look nearly as likely ten years later, but it didn't look likely back in 2008, either.

Odd parallels between the two catchers from the state of Georgia drafted a decade apart.

[Islandboagie]

Rog- The Giants of course won their first World Series in 56 years in 2010, with Buster being a key contributor.  That doesn't look nearly as likely ten years later, but it didn't look likely back in 2008, either.

Boagie- I didn't think a world series was a sure thing, but our system gave me hope, and I had a strong suspicion Posey would be a part of that. That San Jose team in 2008 was stacked with talent.

[rog]

That 2009 San Jose team was indeed extremely talented. Thomas Neal began the season as the #9 hitter and soon had moved all the way up to cleanup. That's how deep they were. The third baseman turned first baseman Angel Villalona was there, and while he didn't go much further, he was one of their top prospects at the time.

The number of players from that team who played in the majors reached double digits, but three players made an impact. Those three -- Buster Posey, Madison Bumgarner and Brandon Crawford -- did indeed make an impact, and Bumgarner and especially Posey made a big difference as soon as 2010. Crawford joined them a year later.

Although he wasn't on the postseason roster, Darren Ford played a role in 2010. It was on September 1st when he scored the winning run by stealing third and scoring on an errant throw. That gave Tim Lincecum the win and broke Lincecum and the Giants out of a horrible August slump. The Giants had a very fine September, and they needed every game of it, not making the postseason until the final game of the regular season.

I got to see Bumgarner make his San Jose debut on April 10th, the day after Joey Martinez got hit so hard in the head with a line drive pitching for the big league team that the ball bounced all the way back to the screen. Martinez himself did some rehab work with the Little Giants that season.

I can still see Bumgarner throwing to Buster as Madison warmed up before that debut. I remember that while Bumgarner showed a decent breaking ball and change up in the bullpen, I was disappointed that he threw almost all fastballs during the game. Not that he needed much of anything else. He threw hard, but not that hard. It was mostly that the batters had a hard time picking up his easy three-quarters motion. Madison posted a 1.48 ERA while pitching only five games there before being promoted to AA, and in September, both he and Buster were last month call ups.

Madison was the Giants' #1 prospect then, with Buster being a very close #2. They were among the top minor league prospects of all the prospects from all the teams. That is the last time that has happened for the Giants.

Buster played most of the season in San Jose before being called up to AAA Fresno and then to the Giants in September. While with the Little Giants, he was beaned and missed 10 days. Fortunately he has suffered few concussions since.

A little over a year later, both Posey and Bumgarner contributed to the first World Series team in 2010.

Later that summmer Raiders beat writer Steve Corkran wrote an article about how good that team was. For a guy who obviously spent the vast majority of his time on football, his article was excellent. The one thing he missed? He spoke of Conor Gillaspie's "fine glove," or something to that effect. Other than that, the article did a very nice job of capturing, as you mentioned Boagie, the excellence of that club.

In a way that team reminded me of the 1994 San Jose squad. Both teams had talented players at virtually every offensive position. Many players on that 1994 team also made the majors, although only Bill Mueller made much of an impact -- unlike the 2009 team which now totals a dozen All-Star games. The major league strike occurred late in the season, and Bobby Bonds was among those in attendance.

The 1994 San Jose team was the first I saw play there, and the 2009 team was the last.

[sfgdood]

I'll feel better when Bart and the others are doing this well in AAA...I learned my lesson with Gary Brown. I'm hopeful, but not overly excited yet.

[klaiggeb]

I'm with you, Randy.

Only I learned my lesson earlier with Solomon Torres.

[Islandboagie]

I went to the game in Everett yesterday..I had to see for myself, and it was only a 20 minute drive from where I am. Bart can hit, and he's a big boy. He won't be in low A ball very long.

[rog]

I'll feel better when Bart and the others are doing this well in AAA...I learned my lesson with Gary Brown. I'm hopeful, but not overly excited yet.


Rog -- There was a huge difference in the scouting reports on the two players, Randy. Joey's scouting report befits a player drafted 2nd overall. Gary's scouting report said that he didn't have enough patience. (Apparently since he wasn't going to graduate anyway, he hardly walked his last year in college. As Boagie pointed out, he struck out very little either, but some scouts didn't think he had the right approach to be successful.

I realize you think all I do is look at numbers, but Gary's numbers -- even peripherally -- weren't bad at San Jose. So it wasn't the numbers that made me back off Gary, but the scouting reports.

This isn't what I read, but from mlbbonusbaby.com, this gives us a flavor of the complexities of Gary: "Gary Brown, Cal State Fullerton - Brown’s a controversial guy in the scouting community." From Sports Illustrated: "Brown's speed tantalizes scouts, who would love to see him perform at a more consistent level."

My line about Gary not walking since he wasn't going to graduate anyway takes on a new meaning when one reads that he is now going to Arizona State University's Masters of Sports Law and Business program, hoping to stick around the game in some capacity.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4679/bart-ballgame#ixzz5LU4VnMAA

[sfgdood]

I would not have gone out on a limb with Brown if his numbers were merely "not bad." He kicked MAJOR ass. He was the CAL League player of the year. He was a bad ass at the plate, a bad ass in the field and a bad ass on the basepaths. I have a feeling he was too much of a bad ass off the field too, but whatever. I don't shoot my mouth off for "not bad" players.

[rog]

I learned my lesson earlier with Solomon Torres.


Rog -- I bought into the hype on Salomon too. I spoke in depth with former Giant Brad Wellman about Salomon when Salomon was first brought up. Brad bought in hard as well.

The funny thing is that when we were discussing Salomon here years later, I went back and looked at his numbers in the minor leagues. They strongly indicated that the hype was misdirected.

To Salomon's credit, after not pitching in the majors or minors from 1998 through 2001, he came back almost a decade after his difficult first season to later become a very good reliever for the Pirates.

But when by chance based on our discussion here I went back to look at Salomon's minor league numbers, they screamed over-hype. I mentioned that it wasn't the numbers but the scouting report that saved me on Gary Brown. In Salomon's case, I went with the hype and didn't check his numbers until years later. I was quite a few years late in doing that or I would have judged him more accurately when he came up. Might have saved me some surprise if not disappointment.

Incidentally, while we remember him for that fateful final game against the Dodgers in 1993, the game that cost the 100+ win Giants team the 1993 postseason, he pitched some good ball prior to that game. And it was reliever Dave Burba who allowed the game to be blown open.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4679/bart-ballgame?page=1#ixzz5LUAhxubK

[rog]

I would not have gone out on a limb with Brown if his numbers were merely "not bad." He kicked MAJOR ass. He was the CAL League player of the year. He was a bad ass at the plate, a bad ass in the field and a bad ass on the basepaths.


Rog -- When I said that Gary's numbers "weren't bad," I was talking peripherals, Randy. I almost mentioned that he was the Cal League Player of the Year. The numbers considered most were very, very good. But I didn't forget the scouting report I had read and remained skeptical. I wish I could remember the precise words I saw in the scouting report, but I know they really bothered me at the time.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4679/bart-ballgame?page=1#ixzz5LUEAo9xO

[rog]

Thanks for going to see Joey, Boagie. Can you give us a scouting report?

[rog]

I was looking for Joey's line from tonight, but he didn't play. I did however see that Sacramento was going up against the Fresno Grizzlies' (Houston) Rogelio Armenteros. The game involved what appeared to be amost unfortunate coincidence.

Entering the contest, Armenteros' AAA record over two seasons was 15-1. The Grizzlie's second half record was ... 15-1. Both the pitcher and the team were hoping to improve to 16-1.

But the River Cats got them, 4-3. The Grizzlies fell to 15-2, but Armenteros avoided the loss, so he remained 15-1.

The Astros aren't too bad at the AAA level either, are they? But tonight the River Cats were better.

By the way, the Giants signed Peter Bourjos to a minor league contract, and he played center field for the River Cats tonight. Bourjos has never hit in the majors, but he is considered a very good defensive outfielder.

And the Giants needed SOMEONE to take the place of Steven Duggar there!

[Islandboagie]

Rog- Thanks for going to see Joey, Boagie. Can you give us a scouting report?

Boagie- I wish I could. Trying to scout a catcher is tougher. Usually with most fielders you can get a sense of their range, arm and athletic ability, catchers don't move much. I will say though he seemed to be a strong presence behind the plate. He looks like a brick wall with a glove, and very smooth. He kind of reminds me of a taller Kirt Manwaring. I saw the homerun, missed the double. I don't believe his swing is all the impressive, but he's a big boy and can hit the ball a long way.

[rog]

Did you see holes in his swing, and were there things mechanically that he might have been doing wrong to cause them?

When you say his swing isn't all that impressive, is it too long? Is it not quick? Has he been so strong that he may not have had to refine his mechanics?

How would you pitch him? Did he seem to be guessing or reacting? How was his eye, and was he able to lay off the pitch outside the zone? I presume he is a good fastball hitter, but how did he handle the offspeed stuff? Did you feel he could be set up?

Did he have much of a stride? Was he a patient hitter? What was his stance like? Where does his power come from? Does he look to be a ground ball or (I'm guessing) fly ball hitter? Did he seem to elevate his swing? How did he handle high and low pitches? In and out? Did the homer he hit appear to come off a mistake? How much did the catcher move his glove on the pitch? What did Joey do in his other at bats, and what type of pitches did they come against?

He played two years in the wood bat Cape Cod League, hitting pretty well (not great) in his first summer there and not very well -- he had limited at bats, so he may have been injured -- in his second. Did you get a good feeling about his adjustment from a metal bat to a wooden one? Any characeteristics of his swing that might make it easy or difficult for him to switch? (I'm guess he isn't having too much problem there!)

I realize this is a lot of questions about a guy you saw bat only a very few times, but I'm curious as to your impressions. They're the best we've got!

Defensively, you compared him to a taller Kirt Manwaring. It's been a long while since Kirt, but IIRC he was both quick and smooth behind the plate. Also take charge. Was that what you saw in Joey? Did you get to see him block pitches or throw?

Did he appear to call a good game? Could you guess what pitches he was going to call? Did he present a strong target, or did he move around a lot? Did he seem to have chemistry with his pitcher? Did he go out and talk with his pitcher when you thought it was appropriate?

Again, we're asking a lot given that you saw Joey only briefly. Will you get another chance to see him play?

You saw the homer. Do you remember what pitch it was and where it was located? Did you catch the speed of the pitch? Was it against a lefty or righty? Starter or reliever?

Would you grade him with say a power tool of 70 and a hit tool of 50? Did you get a chance to see him run? If so, whose speed would you compare him to?

What player does he remind you of?

If you got to see him throw, how well did he position himself to make the throw? What kind of pitch did he get to handle, and where was it located? Quick release? How strong did the throw seem? Did he keep it down? Did it have a tail? Did he throw over the top or have a lower arm angle? Did you get a feeling of confidence from his throwing?

All in all, what would you say were his strengths and weaknesses? Did you get to see Buster play for Salem-Keizer? If so, how do their styles compare?

Again, a lot of questions about a guy you barely saw. Not all your takes will be accurate, and in some cases you may not even have a take yet. You can see how tough it is to scout! And why not all scouts agree.

But I thank you. We don't get many scouting reports here, and you're the only one of us who has much of a clue about the specifics of Joey's game. Anything you can teach us helps. And if you think of things later, please throw them in then.

By the way, if you were making an educated guess, do you think he will contribute in the Lincecum/Bumgarner/Posey mode? How do you rank those three guys, and where do you think Joey will fit in once it's all over?

Can he be as good as Buster? Can he be even better? Did he appear to have the athleticism like Buster to be able to play another position when he is "resting" for a day? Did you happen to sit near the scouts and hear any buzz from them? What location did you have to watch him from? Sounds like you may have gotten there too late to see him warm up the pitcher?

From what you saw, what would you guess about Joey's makeup? Get any feeling how he intereacted with is teammates? While behind the plate, did he seem to communicate well with the umpire?

Do you remember who pitched for the Volcanoes, and did any of their other players impress you? Does Luis Gonzalez's kid play there? Did you hear anything at all about Gregory Santos, the 18-year-old ground ball pitcher? Any other players on the Volcanoes that you thought had a chance to at least make the majors?

On the 20 to 80 scouting scale, how would you rate Joey overall? Do you think he's close to can't miss status? If you were working with him, what would you look to improve?

[Islandboagie]

If I could answer all those questions by just seeing him once, I would probably be the best scout in history.

I will say, however, I believe he has more raw power than Posey did at any point. I think he would be more likely to hit 30 homeruns than hit .300. His swing doesn't seem fluid, but I imagine they will work on that. Defensively I think he's smoother and looks more comfortable behind the plate than Posey did early in his career. Bart did block a few in the dirt, and he did so effortlessly.

I got there around the second inning, there was a stolen base soon after I arrived, which Bart was unable to prevent. It looked to me like he stole the base on the pitcher more than anything, but I wasn't impressed by the throw. If you've never been to a low A ball game, it's not pretty. It's rather sloppy.

There were a few guys at the top of the order that were spraying the ball all over the place. I don't remember their names. I wasn't taking notes, I was just there with a friend having a few beers and getting a look at Bart.

It was a last minute decision to go to the game, I didn't come prepared to scout everyone, and I don't see myself as an amateur wannabe scout either way. I see what I see, and what I saw was a seasoned catcher who is powerful hitter, but is farther along with his defensive abilities than he is with the bat. The Aquasox beat up our pitching staff after I arrived, but I couldn't tell you if that was Bart's inability to call a game.

I don't believe I saw Luis Gonzalez's kid. Isn't he in San Jose?

[rog]

I realize it's tough to pick up on details in just one (partial at that) game, Boagie. Thanks for expanding a little based on your impressions. At that point that's pretty much all you have.

It does give an appreciation for scouts, who I believe file a report after every game they watch a prospect. I'm sure what it is REALLY difficult is if they scout two players in a single game, which I'm sure has happened before.

Different sport, but Aaron Rodgers wound up being recruited by Cal when the scout (probably an assistant coach) went to watch Butte College's tight end Eric Cross. He came away highly impressed with Rodgers and told Cal coach Jeff Tedford he show go watch this guy. Both players wound up being signed to scholarships.