Swings: Part II

[klaiggeb]

I got to actually watch a preseason game last night... BORING announcers for Seattle, but at least I got to watch some of the kids play.

Better swings over all.

Duggar's swing is a LOT longer than I thought. It needs to be shortened, IMHO.

I still like Shaw's swing.

Slater; too many darned ground balls.

Brown; Great inside out swings!

boly

[sfgdood]

Brown? If you mean Trevor, his swings wont matter much. He's got Posey and Hundley and maybe Hector ahead of him

[klaiggeb]

I know Hundley is ahead of Trevor, but I'm not a big Sanchez fan.

He's a mediocre to poor defender who doesn't throw well.

The only advantage of him over Brown, is power.

Add to the fact that Trevor can play multiple places, and that's why I prefer Brown.

[sfgdood]

my point is neither Trevor nor Hector are going to see much big league time unless something bad happens.

[rog]

The thing I like most about Steven Duggar's swing is his balance.

[klaiggeb]

excellent balance for sure.

It's just that his swing is longer than I thought... which CAN BE a problem with off speed stuff.

He's young and he has a ton of talent, though, and plenty of time to learn.

[Islandboagie]

I don't agree that Dugger's swing is long. Seems to me that it's reasonably compact and quick to the zone. I might be wrong though.

[klaiggeb]

I hadn't thought it was long, either, boagie, until the game vs Seattle.

[rog]

It looks long to me, although I think his hands are quick, which makes up for it a bit. Correct me if I'm wrong here, Boly, but doesn't a long swing have a greater effect on an inside pitch than an outside pitch, since the hands are closer in on a compact swing?

[klaiggeb]

A long swing means less ability to adjust to off speed/breaking stuff.

Short, quick, compact is better because the hitter can wait longer.

[rog]

I'm curious as to how much of hitting you think swing form, bat speed generated, pitch recognition and eye/hand coordination form in hitting, Boly, and how they fit together. Any other points worth discussing? Are there thresholds in each that are important, or is the effect of improvement in each more linear?

Also, which Giants hitter do you think is best and which is worst in each category?

Finally, how would you personally work with various Giants to improve their hitting?

Sorry to have so many questions, but I have a lot to learn and am eager to do so.

[klaiggeb]

It all really comes down to what Kruk says all the time; maintaining a repeatable stroke.

The more complicated the swing, the more needless moving parts, the more hitches and flinches and what not, the more difficult it becomes to stay in sync.

I do not believe bat speed can be taught. It can be helped by strength, but like running fast, it can't be taught, really.

Hand to eye coordination is the most important.

Ted Williams always talked about being able to "see the spin" out of the pitchers hands.

Very, very few hitters can/could do that.

If you have THAT kind of an eye, and great hand to eye... you'll likely be a great hitter.

[rog]

Thanks, Boly. I came across a video that used some flexible poles to illustrate to a hitter that if he hit them, his swing was too long. I would think that type of training would be good.

I agree with you that bat speed can't be taught or developed much. I would think that drills could be developed though to help hone reflexes. That speed is rather limited too, but I would think there could be drills that could combine recognition with reaction. Are you aware of any?

Ted was known to have perhaps the best eyes in baseball history. I can relate a more personal experience. My dad had excellent vision, being able to recognize road signs more quickly than anyone we knew. But Chris Speier could see them even ahead of my dad.

Coming back to bat speed, could certain flexibility exercises help improve that slightly? I would think the greater improvements would come in the recognition and reflex areas though. I would think too that a hitter would work on every area he could think of, since I suspect even a hundredth of a second's improvement could be meaningful.

Has hitting development improved, and are there still fertile areas to be explored if the proper methodology could be developed? I would think stuff like this is worked on almost daily somewhere, but have we approached the true limits of improvement that could be available?

It seems in life that just when we think we've got something completely covered, someone comes up with a new method of improvement.

[rog]

Another question on hitting: Do you subscribe to Ted Williams' areas of hitting, the way he assigns to batting averages to certain areas of the plate and just off the plate?

[klaiggeb]

I'm much more of a Charlie Lau disciple.

Ted was like most super star hitters; he had his way of doing things which may, or may not have been easy to acquire.

[rog]

What I was wondering though is whether you concur with the boxes showing the areas of the plate and just off it, and how much he feels he can hit in each area? Obviously his expected batting averages are higher the closer to the middle of the plate they are.

Here is what I think. I've seen heat charts for lot of batters, and indeed there appear to be hitting zones where they are hot, and other zones where they are cold. Seems to me that the heat zones for Brandon Crawford and Joe Panik leaned toward the outside of the plate. In other words, their personal strike zones were farther away from the inside corner than many other hitters.

In their cases, it appeared they could expand the zone off the plate a little without losing much effectiveness, but that they had a hard enough time covering the inside of the plate without trying to go off the plate to the inside.

What I'm exploring here is when it makes for a hitter to expand his zone, and when it doesn't. Without getting into the circumstances that might dictate WHEN a player should expand, I'm exploring WHERE he should expand, and it seems that varies from player to player.

I'm also wondering how that might affect hitting in regular situations. The obvious pitch to swing at is the one that is easiest for the hitter to drive, especially if it would be called a strike, as would almost always be the case. The next pitch to swing at would be the pitch just off the plate in the direction the hitters' heat zone leans. In the cases of Crawford and Panik, that appears to be off the plate outside, and IIRC perhaps toward the low end of the zone.

We've discussed how important it is for a hitter not to get two strikes on him. Almost no hitter is a good one with two strikes. Yet a hitter doesn't want to swing at a pitch he can't drive, and he particularly doesn't want to swing at a pitch that is far out of the zone, where it will be almost impossible for him to hit.

Now, a hitter such as Panik isn't troubled by two strikes as other hitters who have less ability to make contact and thus are in greater danger of striking out. Joe can afford to be more selective than the average hitter until he gets to two strikes. But even a contact hitter such as Joe isn't a very good hitter with two strikes. The danger of striking out and the loss of velocity off the bat by taking protective swings makes it tough for even Joe to hit well with two strikes.

F.P. Santangelo said that with no strikes, he was looking for a pitch to hit. With one strike he was still selective. With two strikes he was simply trying to make contact. Each hitter is different, but I'm thinking a reasonable approach might be to look at the hitter's best hitting area with on strikes (pretty obvious). Then with one strike, look for pitches in the strike zone or just off the plate in the hitting area of the particular hitter (if there is one, and there often is). With two strikes, I think it would depend on the hitter. If he's a contact hitter, he likely can protect with reasonable success. If he's a let-out-the-shaft guy, he should probably react based on his own strengths, which in many cases would mean still letting out at least some shaft.

In general:

. With no strikes, look for STRIKES in the hitter's hitting zone.

. With one strike, look for strikes and pitches just off the plate that are close to the hitter's hitting zone.

. With two strikes, protect, but only to the extent that the hitter still has a chance to drive the ball. The exception would be where contact may advance a runner or runners in a necessary situation.


Does that seem like a reasonable application of Ted's principles?

[rog]

As an aside, how would Charlie Lau approach the above situation?

[klaiggeb]

I can't answer that question, Rog. It's not one I ever heard lau address.