rog
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Post by rog on Jan 9, 2018 15:54:13 GMT -5
Another poll:
Whom would you vote for in this year's Hall of Fame election? A voter can vote for up to 10 candidates.
Speaking of the Hall, it now appears that both Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens will eventually make it there. Based on something like three-eighths of precincts reporting, both Barry and Roger have received close to two-thirds votes this year, or nearly double the votes they received in their first years of eligibility. A 75% vote is necessary to get in.
And a side question for Don especially: How do we see today's candidates compared to other Hall of Famers? I mention Don because he's seen more Hall of Famers play than any of the rest of us. Heck, Don saw Alexander Cartwright play his first game!
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Post by donk33 on Jan 9, 2018 17:43:56 GMT -5
Another poll: Whom would you vote for in this year's Hall of Fame election? A voter can vote for up to 10 candidates. Speaking of the Hall, it now appears that both Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens will eventually make it there. Based on something like three-eighths of precincts reporting, both Barry and Roger have received close to two-thirds votes this year, or nearly double the votes they received in their first years of eligibility. A 75% vote is necessary to get in. And a side question for Don especially: How do we see today's candidates compared to other Hall of Famers? I mention Don because he's seen more Hall of Famers play than any of the rest of us. Heck, Don saw Alexander Cartwright play his first game! dk...I missed Cartwright, but I threw to Connie Mack......the game of baseball has changed so much that I rarely compare players from different eras...but before you go into another spiel about how great the modern player is because of his size and strength, tell me again who was the best player in the AL last year?
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rog
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Post by rog on Jan 10, 2018 12:50:12 GMT -5
dk...I missed Cartwright, but I threw to Connie Mack......the game of baseball has changed so much that I rarely compare players from different eras...but before you go into another spiel about how great the modern player is because of his size and strength, tell me again who was the best player in the AL last year? Rog -- Mike Trout. So far he's been the best player in baseball every year he's played. Why do you ask? As for the difficulty in comparing players of different eras, what do you find difficult about comparing them?
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Post by donk33 on Jan 10, 2018 23:31:18 GMT -5
dk...I missed Cartwright, but I threw to Connie Mack......the game of baseball has changed so much that I rarely compare players from different eras...but before you go into another spiel about how great the modern player is because of his size and strength, tell me again who was the best player in the AL last year? Rog -- Mike Trout. So far he's been the best player in baseball every year he's played. Why do you ask? As for the difficulty in comparing players of different eras, what do you find difficult about comparing them? dk...you mean that little guy did n't win all those awards... if you don't know the differences in baseball by now there is little sense in trying to teach you....
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rog
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Post by rog on Jan 11, 2018 20:03:03 GMT -5
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Post by donk33 on Jan 11, 2018 20:56:52 GMT -5
you mean that little guy did n't win all those awards... if you don't know the differences in baseball by now there is little sense in trying to teach you.... Rog -- Don, I'm not sure what you're talking about here. dk...I'm talking about trying to compare players in different eras, and the change baseball has gone thru in the last 20 years.......and, Mike trout is a great ball player, but that little guy had a much better year.... Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4250/hall-fame-voting#ixzz53vaaKsVZ
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rog
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Post by rog on Jan 11, 2018 21:41:53 GMT -5
Mike trout is a great ball player, but that little guy had a much better year.... Rog -- Now I get it. You're talking about Jose Altuve. Heck of a player, very likely future Hall of Famer. But he didn't play as well as Trout. Longer, but not better. One example is that while Altuve hit a league-leading .346, he didn't approach Trout's league-leading .442 OBP. Mike walked more often (94) than he struck out (90). Trout hasn't played all that many years, but he's played about as well offensively as about anyone ever has in his first six full seasons. Up until this season Trout finished no lower than 2nd in the MVP voting, and frankly could have won it every year. This past year he finished "only" 4th -- because he played little more than two-thirds of the season. By the way, Aaron Judge had one heck of a season too. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4250/hall-fame-voting#ixzz53vwnpBx9
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Post by garyd4sf on Jan 12, 2018 13:19:24 GMT -5
I've followed baseball for ages....and all that time I questioned how the Baseball Hall of Fame worked. Some decade or more ago I saw a great deal of Cooperstown Hall of Fame area dedicated to sportswriters, and realized then that the HOF was primarily, like the All-Star game, a fabrication started by Sportswriters. It doesn't appear to be as much peer selection, as more of those following the game. I have also visited the Basketball HOF in Springfield, Mass (a town I grew up in) and the NFL HOF in Canton, Ohio.
The Baseball HOF looked oldest and most traditional, and actually stodgiest of the three. I think that same mentality may pervade the thinking in selection. Baseball as a game has never been pure. Its a sport where people always look for advantages. That included scuffed up balls, spitters, leaded bats and yes steroids. When they happened there was not a few but many that did steroids to compete. Not smart but that's the way it was . In particular some at the time (who would know) said 70% of the players dabbled in it. Yet here we are with a number of partakers not accused, and a few prime examples (e.g. Barry Bonds)being whipping boys. Barry was a HOF before drugs. Yet here we are in that old "we will teach him a lesson") crowd that wont vote for him but vote for dozens of others partaking of drugs at the time. One that I know pretty surely was a top Dodger reliever whose MPH and physiognomy grew together.
Its time for some of these voters to recognize that the HOF is for best players of their times. Barry is definitely in that category. The HOF is full of less than 100% pure characters (Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, etc.) . I spent most of my time there pointing out to my wife who did what illegally those years ago. My favorite player was Mays but the best hitters I ever saw were Ted Williams, Stan Musial, and Barry Bonds.
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Post by klaiggeb on Jan 12, 2018 14:28:12 GMT -5
That's an awfully good analysis, Gary!
boly
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rog
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Post by rog on Jan 12, 2018 14:30:32 GMT -5
I think the Hall is far too inclusive, and as you point out, Gary, not everyone in it is of the highest character. Ty Cobb admitted to killing a guy, although it is believe that isn't true. Either way, it shows that Ty was about as bad a man as he was a good baseball player. Tremendous player actually. Very likely one of the top 10 to play the game, and quite possibly in the top five or better.
Shoeless Joe Jackson and Pete Rose are kept out of the Hall because of gambling, which is understandably looked at as a huge crime, perhaps even worse than murder.
I believe by far the biggest damage to the Hall has been by the Veterans Committee. Even though it was they who got Orlando Cepeda in, few if any of the guys they have let in would be in my own Hall, which would be far more exclusive. To me, the Hall should be only for the creme de la creme.
The Giants have the most players who have played for them in the Hall of any team.
You mentioned Bonds, Gary, and I've never seen a hitter whose swing looked so good. His swing was so pure that one could almost wonder why he didn't hit the ball out of the park every time. To me, nearly a perfect combination of level and upper cut. And while he was of course aided in his performance in later years, have we ever seen any other guy who seemed to know if a pitch was a ball or a strike even as it was leaving the pitcher's hand? How often did we see him check his swing?
I reported how marvelously selective Joey Votto was this past season. Not sure if it is true or not, but I read that this past season he swung at the highest percentage of strikes of any batter and also swung at the lowest percentage of balls. That's Bondsian, which shows how great Bonds was in that regard.
When the Astros played the Giants in the penultimate series of the 2001 season, they asked their analytic guys when to pitch to Barry. The answer was to pitch to him every time he came up with no outs, to walk him every time with two outs, and to let the situation dictate with one out. In that series Barry got almost no balls to hit out, yet he got six hits in addition to his eight walks, and hit a homer late in the final game of the series. IIRC the pitch was from a lefty and was thrown at nearly 100 mph.
As it turns out, the pitch was thrown by southpaw Wilfredo Rodriguez who pitched in only two games in his career and is probably best known for that one pitch. Rodriguez did strike out three in his three-inning career, but Bonds wasn't the only hitter to pound him. Still, other than that one pitch, the Astros kept the ball out of Barry's wheel house.
In terms of being a five-tool player, I don't know of anyone as good as Willie Mays. As far as having a beautiful stroke, marvelous strike zone control and a ton of power, I don't know of anyone as good as Barry.
In the final six seasons of Barry's career when they began measuring strikes in the zone and outside it, Barry never swung at as many as one in five balls, and even though he often took the first pitch, he never swung at as few as three strikes out of five.
To roll back to Votto, already a sure-fire Hall of Famer, last season Joey (20 games) came within one game of the record for getting base at least TWO times in a game. In two of those games he didn't get a single hit. The streak was finally broken when he got on base only once. Joey also had a game in which he got on base five times (all walks) without swinging the bat.
Barry's .609 OBP in 2004 is one of the most spectacular stats in baseball history. I saw an analysis that had Barry not swung once -- and of course the pitchers didn't know in advance of each at bat that he wasn't going to do so -- he will would have reached base at something like a .608 clip.
Because of the steroids issue, Barry was let go after the 2007 season, but no Giant since has come close to equaling his 1.045 OPS that season. Barry led the league in walks 12 times in his career, including his last seven full seasons. Barry had an OPS of .999 or higher in each of his last 16 seasons.
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rog
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Post by rog on Jan 12, 2018 14:51:42 GMT -5
Among today's players, there seems to be a good chance that both Mike Trout and Clayton Kershaw will go down as among the very best who ever played. I'm talking top 10 or 20. Trout might even make the five if he keeps it up. I don't think any player has ever been as good offensively in his first six full seasons as Trout, and Kershaw is among the very best pitchers through nine full seasons. Kershaw has already done enough to make the Hall, and all Trout needs to do is get in his 10 qualification seasons.
In his past seven seasons, Kershaw has won three Cy Young Awards, finished second twice, third once and fifth once. I believe that is unprecedented. His 2.36 career ERA is the best of any pitcher in the live ball era. His ERA+ over the past seven seasons is well ahead of Sandy Koufax's final five. I do think with his back injuries, we've seen the best of Kershaw, expect perhaps in the postseason, where he inexplicably has struggled.
In is first six full seasons Trout has won two MVP's, finished second three times and finished fourth once. I know that is unprecedented. Trout is very likely on his way to becoming a 300/300 guy. He already has 201 homers and 165 steals in 197 attempts. And best of all for Angels fans, he's only 26.
I haven't scoped it out, but couldn't the Angels be the surprise team of 2018? They picked up Ohtani, and with the free agent signing of Zack Cozart, their left-side infield defense might be the best since Robinson and Belanger. And in Kershaw and Trout, we're talking about two of the best of all time.
In other Hall of Fame talk, even if Don has a vote, Buster Posey is becoming close to a shoo in for the Hall, and Madison Bumgarner has a shot.
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