Giants leave Meetings with work to be done

[klaiggeb]

This is the headline from the Giant Website.

Why am I not surprised.

This is precisely what I expected; nothing.

boly

[sfgdood]

Evans is a joke...he wants to stand pat after 98 losses...time for a complete front office shake up

[klaiggeb]

I'm not crazy about him either, Randy, but what can he do?

What could ANYONE do?

We have no trade chips.

No hitter wants to come to AT&T.

And with Heliot rated as highly as EVERYONE rates him, no way we can afford to let him go.

I have said for a while that IF we don't get Stanton, we need to roll the dice with some of the youngsters and let's see them develop.

What I proposed, and AM proposing, though Evans will never do it is:

1-Trade Jeffy the Stubborn

2-Trade Moore

3-Roll the dice with Stanton, Blach and Beede

4-Cut Pablo loose UNLESS he has a dynamite spring

5-IF they really think Duggar will be with the club in 2019, we live with Gorkys in CF for one, ONE year, no more.

Move Span and Pence to LF, and run Austin out in RF and let them all play

6-Unless he finally has that MASSIVE break out year we've all been waiting for, I move Belt at the trade deadline and call up Shaw.

I'd rather that than go with a ton of retreads.

boly

[sfgdood]

If you don't have prospects to trade then you have to use whatever assets you have. In the Giants case, it's money...money to pay salaries other teams want relief from...that's what had Miami drooling but Stanton killed the deal. The only other option the Giants have is to overpay...either give too many prospects in a trade or too much money in a FA deal.

Unfortunately either Evans or ownership is too stupid to understand this.

As for trading any of our rotation, you might as well trade Cueto or Posey and totally give up

[rog]

Evans is a joke...he wants to stand pat after 98 losses..


Rog -- How in the world do you know that, Randy? My guess is that he wants to do just the opposite -- but doesn't have the players to trade or the dollars to spend.

Let me ask you this, Randy. What trades and free agents signings would you have made thus far? How would you have fit them in the budget? Would you have been able to get the players you want in trade by giving up what you're willing to give up?

If Bobby wanted to make trades for the sake of showing action, I suspect he could have. But his job is to improve the team, not simply make trades for trades' sake.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4200/giants-leave-meetings-work#ixzz51Jee1z8j

[rog]

If you don't have prospects to trade then you have to use whatever assets you have. In the Giants case, it's money...money to pay salaries other teams want relief from...that's what had Miami drooling but Stanton killed the deal.


Rog -- It appears pretty clear that the Giants were willing to break the bank for Stanton, but without being able to land a superstar, they're trying to avoid the luxury tax threshold -- or at least not venture too far into it. Sabean has said as much.

By the way, I don't know how much the Marlins were drooling. The Yankees wound up taking on more of Stanton's contract than the Giants had offered, and I think Castro is far more of an asset than Beede and Garcia. I wouldn't trade Castro for Beede and Garcia. If the Marlins are willing to do so, make that trade and play Castro at third base.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4200/giants-leave-meetings-work?page=1#ixzz51Jfakwxn

[rog]

Unfortunately either Evans or ownership is too stupid to understand this.


Rog -- It appears they're far smarter than you are, Randy. At the very least, they understand much more than you think.





Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4200/giants-leave-meetings-work?page=1#ixzz51Jgphw26

[rog]

1-Trade Jeffy the Stubborn

2-Trade Moore

3-Roll the dice with Stanton, Blach and Beede


Rog -- If the Giants could get the right deal, I would indeed trade Jeff. By the way, doesn't it take concentration to be stubborn? If you're not concentrating, how can you be stubborn? By being stubborn, you may not be focusing on the right things, but clearly you're focusing.

Moore has very little trade value.

If the Giants can get one good starter between Stratton, Blach and Beede, they will be doing well. If they can get two, they'd be lucky. If they got three, they should quit the front office and go to Vegas.




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[rog]

The problem with giving chances to the young guys is that they're not very good.

No problem for the Dodgers to give a chance to Seager. Except that he got hurt, no problem giving it to Urias. No problem giving it to Bellinger.

The Dodgers have three prospects rated higher than Christian Arroyo, who is ranked #57. If he still qualified, their top prospect would very likely be Urias, who is still just 21.

So the Dodgers have four young players who are ranked ahead of Arroyo, who is considered a good prospect but not by any means a great one.

Look at the Giants who are 25 or under. Arroyo is considered the best, and the Dodgers have six 25-and-unders who are rated ahead of him. Seager and Bellinger are already playing at an All-Star level.

The Giants don't really have much to lose by playing the young guys. Unfortunately they likely don't have much to gain either.

[rxmeister]

I am also disappointed the Giants did nothing at the winter meetings, because the season starts tomorrow and it’s the same bums that lost 98 games. Wait, what? The season doesn’t start for four months? Why is everyone angry? Plenty of time to fix this mess. Alex Pavlovic said the Giants are confident on several fronts and something might happen as early as next week. He mentioned Avisail Garcia as a possibility, who hit .330 last year with 18 homeruns. I read an article yesterday that mentioned that his year was a bit fluky (backed up with solid stats) but he’s certainly better than any outfielder the Giants currently have on their roster. They’re also talking to other teams and free agents. I’ll save my despair for a much later time.

[klaiggeb]

I'm hoping that Alex is right, Mark.

Because right now, all I hear is rhetoric.

boly

[sfgdood]

The Giants were confident with Casey McGehee too

[rog]

Gosh, Mark, you almost always have something insightful to contribute.

I haven't seen the article on Garcia that you mention, but last night I came to the same judgment in virtually the very words you used -- somewhat fluky season but much better than what the Giants have now. A .330 hitter? No. But .280 seems reasonable.

Avisail didn't hit the ball much harder than in 2016, but his unsustainable .392 BABIP fueled his .330 average. In 2016 his BABIP was a more normal .309, limiting his average to just .245. He doesn't walk, although last season he struck out only once every five at bats.

Last night I was at the point where I was going to look up how he fared in The Fielding Bible Awards, so let me do so now. I wasn't very impressed last night, but perhaps I will be on second look. His defensive stats on Fan Graphs aren't very good, which turned me off a little. His arm is considered neither strong nor accurate by the fans. He seems more like a left fielder, not that the Giants need a left fielder!

This past season Garcia got two points out of a possible 120, finishing in a tie for 19th among right fielders. The previous season he got no votes at all. Maybe he could be an average fielder in left.

Garcia wouldn't be likely to hit many homers at AT&T. He's as much of a ground ball hitter as Billy Hamilton. That would limit his power even without AT&T, although he hit 18 homers last season. Most of his homers are to the power alleys or center field though, so between the location and his ground ball propensity, I don't see him hitting a lot of long balls as a Giant. On the plus side, he'd fit right in with the rest of the team!

The problem with these guys who are available is that they're available for a reason. Unless he could be had cheaply, I'd pass on Garcia. I prefer Hamilton to Avisail. Hard to imagine taking the weak-hitting Hamilton over a .330 hitter, isn't it? But Garcia will almost certainly come back to earth at bat, and his glove and legs are below average.

Hamilton has great legs, glove and arm and could possibly still become a good hitter. He really needs to learn to hit from the right side though.

[rog]

Here's the thing, Randy. The Giants have about as much action as any team this winter. They've also had as few results as anyone.

Something is likely to break loose somewhere. Aren't you the least bit encouraged that the Giants believe they'll make a deal, perhaps as soon as next week? The answer wasn't at all what the Giants wanted, but they were right on the money when they expected a decision from Stanton by last weekend.

Boly's cup is only about a quarter full, but yours almost always seems to be broken!

[rog]

The dam is beginning to crack a little, but have you noticed how few deals almost ANY team has been able to make? The winter is off to a very slow start. Not just for the Giants but for most teams.

Remember how upset you were with the return the Giants got for Nunez last summer? You seemingly ignored the buyers' market in which the trade was made. Now you're upset that all you're coming across is rhetoric, but that's the case with most teams. The environment has been a very slow one for teams and players alike.

As Mark pointed out though, the season starts tomorrow (What a great early Christmas present!), so the Giants have run out of time.

[sfgdood]

For myself, Rx, the reason I'm very irked is because Bobby boy and his band of incompetents swore up and down how much they were going to get done at the meetings in the wake of losing out on both Stanton and Ohtani. And what have they done? NOT A DAMN THING! So why should we believe anything they tell us anymore? It's just like the cock n bull crap they said about signing international studs...yeah that has worked out brilliantly hasn't it?

[Islandboagie]

While Bobby Evans isn't my favorite, I believe Baer is the main culprit when it comes to the poor decisions that have been made by the organization since 2012. Some have worked, some haven't. Baer pushes these grandiose ideas that don't pan out, then they're stuck overpaying for lesser options to keep the fan base hanging on.

I hear Evans talk and he seems like he knows what he's doing. Baer strikes me as a complete moron that the players don't seem to like. I kind of new we were headed in this direction when they pushed out Neukom, who I liked a lot.

[rog]

I too am a Bill Newkom fan, and I'm not especially a fan of Larry Baer. But in fairness, it should be noted that two of the three Giants World Championships came under Baer's regime.

In fairness the other way, Newkom could be given a good deal of credit for each of the three, even if he wasn't the active head for the last two.

Well, the season starts tomorrow, but let's see what they do at the the trade deadline. That's March 31st, right?

[rog]

Look at the foolish nicknames we see here such as:

. Jeffy the Stubborn

. Bobby boy and his band of incompetents

. What is it we call Brandon Belt?

. Did you have a nickname for George Kontos, Boly? Must have.

. Which other derogatory nicknames can we remember for Giants players and management?

[rog]

From MLB.com:

Though the Giants aren't believed to be actively shopping their top performers in trade talks, general manager Bobby Evans indicated Monday that he would listen to offers involving the team's biggest stars as San Francisco strives to upgrade its roster.

Speaking to reporters at the General Managers Meetings in Orlando, Fla., Evans did not completely rule out the possibility of trading either of the club's pillars: five-time All-Star catcher Buster Posey or ace left-hander Madison Bumgarner, the 2014 World Series hero.

"We have to be mindful of Posey and Bumgarner. They're centerpieces of our club," Evans said. "So is [shortstop] Brandon Crawford, and there's other guys, too, who are important elements. But we have to be open to what other opportunities present themselves, and some of that could require sacrificing something to improve in other areas."

[rog]

From Henry Schulman:

During a break in Thursday’s Rule 5 draft, Giants general manager Bobby Evans and Rangers counterpart Jon Daniels were locked in a ponderous conversation near the ballroom door.


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Either they were discussing a blockbuster deal or engaged in a heated debate over the merits of North Carolina versus Texas barbecue.

After the draft, in which the Giants snagged young, fire-throwing reliever Julian Fernandez from the Rockies while losing swingman Albert Suarez to the Diamondbacks, the meetings ended and team executives flew home, most without filling any of their top needs.

The 2017 meetings were more bizarre than bazaar.

[klaiggeb]

Give me time, and I'll come up with a bunch.

I grew up with those kinds of nick names, Rog.

It's part of my make up.

It's all MY WAY of referring to them and NOT swearing when they tick me off.

And when I give them a derrogatory nick name, they HAVE ticked me off.

And when a pro REFUSES to change, I have a problem with that.


I have zero time for pros with ego's the size of Great Britain.


Cadillac talent, Volkswagen brain was the phrase we used to use in the 1960's



I think my name for George was 'COUGH 'EM UP KONTOS.'

boly

[rog]

From Chris Haft:

The Giants have a lot going on at baseball's Winter Meetings. Take general manager Bobby Evans' word for it.

Though the Giants haven't agreed on a trade or signed a free agent, they're striving to seal a deal or two, insisted Evans and people familiar with the club's talks.

"I think there's a sense of urgency to try to address some of the needs, sooner than later," Evans said, pointing out that the Meetings are occurring a week later than usual.

So, beneath the silence, the Giants' trade talks remained ongoing.

[klaiggeb]

Lord, I hope you, and Chris Haft, are right, Rog.

We need to make some demonstrative moves.

Not just 'moves.'

boly

[rog]

Cadillac talent, Volkswagen brain was the phrase we used to use in the 1960's


The one I was used to regarding pitchers -- one of whom was Steve Stone -- was million dollar arm; 10 cent brain.

I'm kind of big on "legend in his own mind."




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4200/giants-leave-meetings-work#ixzz51MvV9jpS

[rog]

I think my name for George was 'COUGH 'EM UP KONTOS.'


Rog -- I realize we disagree on this and never the twain shall mark, er meet, but it's hard for me to believe that a guy with a 3.00 ERA and a 1.14 WHIP coughs 'em up too often.

Maybe I like him just because I noticed him when he was traded to the Giants for Chris Stewart right before the 2012 season. Maybe I just like him because he went to Northwestern, one of my two favorite colleges. (The state we live in gives a large clue as to the other one.) Or maybe I like him for his 3.00 ERA and 1.14 WHIP.

Or perhaps all of the above.

So far at least, the Pirates seem to like him.

Let's not forget that Mark and I worried prior to last season about his declining strikeout rate. Last season certainly wasn't his best, and he's now 32. He may already be declining. But while his 3.36 ERA and 1.22 WHIP didn't make his best season, the only other Giants pitcher to have a lower ERA and WHIP last season was Madison Bumgarner.

And George showed some signs of life by posting a career-high 9.5 per nine strikeout rate. His 3.0 walk rate wasn't outstanding, but it was lower than any other Giants reliever except Mark Melancon.

Still, not a great season for George. But not a bad one either.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4200/giants-leave-meetings-work?page=1#ixzz51MwJZ4jJ

[rog]

Hey, I don't know what moves the Giants will make, and if I'll like them when they do. Just about everywhere I look I see questions marks. I'd go for Manny Machado though! Given that the Giants need to trade for power hitters and sign pitchers as free agents, how about Madison Bumgarner for Machado? I don't know if I'd do that or not, but I certainly wouldn't reject it out of hand.

And the Giants have said they might trade a player or players we fans would miss.

I think Manny would have more value for another team though. He can play shortstop, and the Giants already have pretty good one of those! He could certainly fill their void at the hot corner though.

Two times in three seasons I myself have traded Machado in the fantasy league Mark and I play in. The first time (2015) I did so because I was stupid. Last season I did so only because I was able to leverage Manny and D.J. LeMahieu into Paul Goldschmidt, whose steals and walks made him more valuable than Manny. Manny was hitting the ball even harder than in previous seasons, so I was pretty sure he would bounce back from his slow start (which he did), but turning him into Goldschmidt for him and a second baseman who wasn't likely to start for me greatly helped my season.

In the real world I would LOVE to have Manny, who is as good with the glove as with the bat. The problem with signing Manny is that he's eligible to be a free agent after next season, and it seems unlikely he would re-sign with the Giants. And even Manny wouldn't likely make the Giants contenders in 2018, especially if they gave up Bumgarner to get him.

[sfgdood]

Once again...my biggest problem is all the unkept promises by Evans. I can't trust anything from his mouth anymore. Maybe you remember some of these beauties:


We're going to sign a bunch of International stars...Nyet

We're going to get a stud 3rd baseman before 2015 season...nope

Casey McGehee is going to be awesome...double nope.

We have a great chance of getting Stanton or Ohtani or both...nope.

We're going to make a splash at the winter meetings...nope

[rog]

I'm guessing you weren't as excited about the Moore trade as I, Randy. For me, Moore became less.