Crawford vs. Simmons

[rog]

I'm not immediately finding the thread where we were once again discussing Crawford's and Simmons' defense.  Are you guys up for going through both a Simmons and a Crawford highlight reel to see how they look?

I already mentioned that it is much easier to find Simmons highlight tapes than Crawford highlights, but highlight reels exist for both.

Here is something I thought of this morning.  I typed "Andrelton Simmons Defense" into my browser and here were the first headlines that came up:


.  Watch:  Andrelton Simmons Wows on Defense (SI.com)

.  Andrelton Simmons Defensive Highlights 2016

.  Andrelton Simmons Defensive Highlights 2017

.  Andrelton Simmons/Career Defensive Highlights

.  Andrelton Simmons good, not great, with his glove this season (LATimes.com)

.  Andrelton Simmons could be the best defensive shortstop ever (ESPN.com)

.  Stop everything you're doing and watch Andrelton Simmons (ESPN.com)

.  Andrelton Simmons impresses with great defense (MLB.com)

.  Andrelton Simmons is peerless

.  Andrelton Simmons creates an incredible defensive highlight


The LA Times article wasn't a great rating, but the others look really sharp -- especially "Andrelton Simmons could be the best defensive shortstop ever."

Here is what I found for "Brandon Crawford Defense":


.  Brandon Crawford is having an amazing defensive season (McCovey Chronicles)

.  Brandon Crawford glove highlights

.  Brandon Crawford's best defensive plays, statistically (Fan Graphs)

.  Brandon Crawford, the Giants shortstop, is the best at what he does (New York Times)

.  Defensive Player of the Month:  Brandon Crawford (ESPN.com)

.  Tools make good:  the case of Brandon Crawford (Minor League Ball)

.  The Giants rely heavily on shortstop Brandon Crawford

.  Braves' shortsop Simmons deserved Gold Glove -- "but so did Crawford." (FoxSports.com)

.  Best Defensive Player:  Crawford (MLB.com)

.  Crawford on Gold Glove Defense (MLB.com)

.  Giants' Brandon Crawford evolving into more than a "defense-first shortstop" (Yahoo Sports)


Both players show great defense in these headlines, but do you notice a slight difference?  Brandon had one highly impressive headline entitled "Best Defensive Player:  Crawford."  But did we notice that there was more of that on Simmons and how often Simmons' headline referred us to highlights?

I've spend hours watching Simmons highlights and have come to the conclusion that he's pretty good.  So is Crawford.  I think both are historically great.

One way to compare the two players is to look at the defensive statistics.  Simmons easily prevails.

Another way is the eye test, which is best accomplished by us without access to video of all the plays of each by watching their respective highlight films.  I know Boly did that in at least a cursory fashion and felt that Crawford had better fundamentals.  I think he's probably right. 

Both players are extremely aware on the field.

But here is the thing I noticed when I watched Simmons' highlight videos:  He makes plays we haven't seen Brandon make before, even though we've seen most of Brandon's plays over the years. 

I think Boagie is more impressed with Crawford because Brandon is so smooth.  I think Boly is more impressed with Crawford because of Brandon's better fundamentals.  I am more impressed with Simmons because he simply makes more plays, at least based on what I've seen of each, which is likely as even a balance as anyone here.

Statistically, Simmons prevails.  Based on the amount of highlights available, Simmons prevails by a lot.  Based on the headlines one sees when one puts each player's defense into his browser, Simmons is more highly thought of.  Based on just about everything I've read, Simmons comes out on top.

But for those who value their own eyes more than all the above, I suggest viewing all of Simmons' highlight tapes.  Or at the very least, let's compare our views on a particular video of Simmons' highlights and one of Brandon's highlights.

Personally I see better fundamentals with Brandon.  I see better results with Simmons.  Plays that I haven't seen Brandon make.  Plays that I don't think Brandon WOULD make.

[donk33]

dk..I haven't seen much of Simmons so it is hard for me to compare him to Craw....23as far as range factors, Simmons has a better score. However, RF can be biased towards the team with "ground ball" pitchers. So with little real facts to go on, I would take Craw because the way he slides into a ball in the hole and can than make a strong throw to 1b...I also love the way craw makes the double play...I also like the way Craw seems to get into the meetings on the mound....

Without the use of "The Fielding Bible" and all the stats, the best look at a SS?2B combination was watching a game (small sample) between the Cubs and Giants in the Polo Grounds. The Cubs were using some backups that day...Bobby Sturgeon at SS and Lou Stringer at 2b (Stringer had played some as a regular)...these 2 guys made plays all over the field going both ways and coming up with strong throws....this was the best demonstration of playing the infield I have ever seen both before and after that afternoon....In Baseball-Reference, Sturgeon had a RF/9 of 5.66 and Stringer reached 5.85....Simmons career average is 4.75 and Crawford is 4.43.... both Stringer and Sturgeon went into the service after 1942 (I think) and lost lots of their careers... neither were strong hitters.

When you talk about all- timers, remember many things have changed in baseball...new balls almost every other pitch...clean balls are easier to see and they don't have the funny English that slightly bruised balls have...the gloves are much better, today...and the infields are raked before, and several times during a game...the grass is better kept and the fields are cared for with more skill.

Aside...the day Frank Robinson was appointed manager of the Giants, I saw him at a Laker game....I went over and wished him luck and suggested that he makes sure they improve the care of the infield in SF...this was based on the knocks I heard about the field on the radio and TV....Robinson looked at me as if I was smoking the wrong stuff....

[klaiggeb]

Which is the way, IMHO, Frank managed.

The only MORE CLUELESS manager, IMHO, when it came to handling SF Giant pitchers, was Jim Davenport.

boly

[rog]

You make a fine point, Don, that range factor can be misleading. I say that even though I realize Simmons has a big lead in that stat over Brandon. Doesn't really mean much, for the reason you cited (ground ball pitchers vs. fly ball pitchers) and also because some pitchers get the ball hit up the middle more than others.

As we know, fielding percentage can be at least as misleading.

The more modern stats do a much better job of evaluating defense. But even they often disagree. Most feel the best way to evaluate a fielder's fielding is to use ALL the defensive stats, providing something of a blend of ratings. And having a sample of two or three years is better than having only one season to judge on.

Just as with hitters, fielders have good and bad seasons.

The thing with Simmons is that he rates at the top on a very high percentage of the metrics. One that is very important is that he has outranked all shortstops on routine plays. He has also outranked most of them on spectacular plays.

I've looked at hours of tape of Simmons. There are things I like better about Crawford (mostly smoothness), but I have seen Simmons make quite a few plays I haven't seen Brandon make.

As an example, Simmons' tagging ability may be second only to Javier Baez. Brandon is also good at making tags, but he hasn't made all the behind-the-back and between-the-legs tags Simmons has.

There is one play where a ball is hit slowly to the third baseman with a runner on first. The runner keeps right on going and tries for third. Simmons covers third as he's supposed to. The throw is wildly high and to the outside of third base. Crawford might not even catch the throw, preventing the runner from scoring. Simmons makes a fabulously athletic effort that not only enables him to catch the ball high in the air, but to tag the runner behind his back in an incredible effort.

The play that first got me going on Simmons is a play where he goes deeper in the hole than any other play I've seen. When he fields it, he's 10 to 15 feet back on the grass and to about the 5 1/4 hole. He's bent over and running away from the play. I don't know how long his throw is, but it's a very long one even though he doesn't take the time to set but rather makes a jump throw. Most shorstops, including Brandon, would need to set themselves rather than make the jump throw, likely taking three more steps to get off the throw.

The trade off of course is that by getting set for the throw, it is stronger and takes less time to get to the first baseman. But three steps is a lot to give a base runner. Simmons' arm is so strong and accurate that with the help of an outstanding stretch from first baseman Freddie Freeman, he just gets the runner. I don't think there is any other shortstop in baseball who makes that play. I've never seen a runner thrown out from anywhere close to as deep in the hole as Simmons went. Even with the jump throw though, the ball gets to first base rather quickly once it leaves Simmons' hand, and the throw is perfect enough to allow Freeman to stretch out fully.

Simmons is able to successfully throw behind runners more often than Crawford, who himself is pretty good at it. I think Crawford is even better at going back on a pop up than Simmons is, but I haven't seen Brandon catch a pop up with his back to the infield and then throw behind the runner on first to spectacularly double him off.

I haven't seen Brandon track down a ball hit off the side facing in short left field, then turn and throw the batter out at second base. It was somewhat surprising on the play that Simmons even WENT for the ball. Again, despite moving away from the base, his throw was strong and accurate.

I wrote previously that I felt Simmons got more help at first base from Freeman than Crawford did from Belt, but in watching Brandon's highlight tapes, he too gets a lot of help from Belt, who is actually considered by many to be a better first baseman than Freeman. I still think Simmons used to get more help from Freeman (obviously now that he's with the Angels, he no longer gets Freddie's help), but not by much. And I suspect that now that Simmons is with the Angels, it is Brandon who gets more help. I don't believe the Angels' first basemen are known for their fielding.

Crawford is excellent on relay throws, but on one of Simmons' highlights, he makes the third-strongest throw that has been recorded. Simmons is quite possibly even better than Brandon at the relay throw.

Watch their respective highlight reels. Crawford looks outstanding; Simmons sometimes looks unreal.

Watching the smoothness of Crawford, I would think he would be better on routine plays than Simmons. But an evaluation of both players on more than 2000 routine plays says just the opposite.

As I say, watch their highlights. One clue might be that one can look at well over an hour of Simmons highlights, while Crawford's are encompassed in low double digit minutes. Kind of like the headlines I found on the net. Marvelous headlines for Crawford, but headlines that at least once even asked if Simmons was the greatest defensive shortstop of all time.

Regarding that, and this is just a guess on my part, I'm going to guess that Ozzie was better before he hurt his arm, and Simmons is better than Ozzie was after his serious arm injury. Stylistically, Simmons is more athletic like Ozzie, while Crawford is more graceful like Omar Vizquel. One advantage Brandon has over even Omar is that his arm is much stronger. That is also an advantage that Simmons enjoys over at least the post-injury Smith.

As I have mentioned before, Lindor and Russell seem to be pretty exceptional as well. I'm not sure I've looked at too much of Russell, but Lindor's highlights are extremely impressive.

One last thing regarding Simmons and Crawford. Simmons' biggest advantages seem to come on routine and exceptional plays. It appears they're closer together on the plays in between.