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Post by Rog on Jul 4, 2017 17:47:29 GMT -5
Came across a couple of facts from even before Boly and I were Giants fans.
First, the Giants were in first place with an outstanding 25-8 record when Willie Mays was drafted into the army in 1952. They went 67-54 the rest of the way, having a good season with 92 wins -- but not good enough by four and a half games to win the pennant that season.
In 1951 they went 81-40 after he was called up, just enough to beat the Dodgers in a playoff. So in Willie's first 154 games -- the number of games in a full season back then -- the Giants went 106-48.
Second, one day various Giants were taking infield practice. Hank Thompson was at third; Al Dark was at short; Monte Irvin was at first ; and Willie was at second. As they came off the field, Alvin joked, "We Darkies were pretty good out there, weren't we?" Alvin later got into trouble as manager of the Giants for remarks he made, but he had actually grown up in the South just a couple of blocks from the black neighborhood and was well accustomed to having played with black kids, something most whites from the South hadn't experienced.
We don't have infield practice anymore, but if we did, we could imagine how the infield fielded compared to the "Darkies." I have mentioned this before, but Willie was a fine infielder, making plays in infield practice -- which he took on occasion; he had played the infield (shortstop) in the Army -- that I didn't again see until the days of Ozzie Smith. Circus plays. Just having fun.
Wish we could all have seen that, and I wish the Giants had played Willie at short in his career. With all the fine outfielders they developed, it might have been enough to have won them a handful more pennants.
We'll never know. But if they'd had analytics back then ... just joking. Although on second thought, who knows? If someone had shown how Mays performed at shortstop and how much more his bat was worth to the Giants as a shortstop ...
I have recently complained that we aren't forward-thinking enough. That we don't fix something until it breaks, as opposed to being ahead of the curve. If someone had been forward-thinking about Willie's position, who knows? I'll tell you one thing: In the early sixties he could still play short in a way I hadn't seen before.
Of course, he played center in a manner previously unseen in the majors, either. Played a very short center field, unlike Curt Flood -- the other top defensive center fielder in the early sixties -- who played a very deep center. Willie cut off a lot of potential singles by playing that way, and there weren't a lot of balls that got over his head.
As his first biography was titled, Willie was "Born to Play Ball."
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Post by donk33 on Jul 5, 2017 0:55:17 GMT -5
first, Al Dark's was called Blackie well before there were any Blacks in Baseball....and no one seemed to get worked up about it....
Second, why do you keep moaning about Mays not being played at shortstop??? How do you know he could have taken the wear and tear at that position and still hit??? John McGraw moved Mel Ott from catcher to the outfield to save the wear on his legs...sadly, his eyes went before his legs and Mel had trouble with glasses and there were no contacts.....Be thankful that Willie stayed in the outfield ... and by the way, the first two Blacks who played for the Giants were moved around between multiple positions even though they were good in their original positions....Leo the Lip moved almost all the Giants around to new positions and won the flag in 1951.....but he kept Mays in CF...maybe he knew more than Rog...
Third, First baseman were taught to move your feet when you gauge where the throw was going...and you went in the direction of the throw....Jackie Robinson had lots of trouble learning the foot work when he was moved to first and made the majors....several Giants were hurt avoiding his foot being on top of the bag...I saw Davey Williams take a terrible tumble trying to avoid stepping on Jackie's foot....Enos Slaughter didn't avoid Jackie's foot and he got tagged a raciest....didn't know Enos and he probably was a raciest...but so were a very large number of ball players...but it never should have been over the spiking....
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Post by Rog on Jul 5, 2017 10:34:33 GMT -5
first, Al Dark's was called Blackie well before there were any Blacks in Baseball. Rog -- Great point. The book I read said we "DARKIES" did pretty well," (based on his last name), but I wonder if it was we "Blackies," based on his nickname. I hadn't that of that one, Don. \ Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3956/don-fan#ixzz4lyJEE4ti |
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Post by Rog on Jul 5, 2017 10:36:48 GMT -5
Hadn't THOUGHT of that one, not THAT of that one. You're still Don though, right? I didn't mess that part up? Wait long enough, and I'll probably get that part wrong some day too.
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Post by Rog on Jul 5, 2017 10:48:39 GMT -5
Second, why do you keep moaning about Mays not being played at shortstop??? How do you know he could have taken the wear and tear at that position and still hit??? John McGraw moved Mel Ott from catcher to the outfield to save the wear on his legs Rog -- First, there's a big difference between wear and tear at catcher compared to shortstop. Also, there's more wear and tear in center field than right field. Much more running. Second, we don't know how well Willie would have hit if he had played shortstop, but there's little reason to believe it would have had a huge effect. Ernie Banks won consecutive MVP's at the position. That's as many as Willie won in his career. Hadn't thought of this before, but Banks is tied for the two MVP's that were closest together, while Willie singularly holds the record for the two the furthest apart (11 years). Isn't the thought of Willie playing shortstop and guys like Jackie Brandt, Felipe Alou and Ken Henderson playing center field enticing? Too bad the Giants didn't at least try it out. Maybe they would have if they didn't already have another "Blackie" and "Darkie" established there when Willie returned from the Army.  In the sixties, the Giants kept falling just short. Willie would have enjoyed more chances at shortstop to show off his defensive magic, which might have contributed to a win or two. And having a guy like Felipe Alou in center field instead of Jose Pagan at shortstop might also have made the difference of a game or three. Could have been enough to turn those close second's into close pennant's. I don't bring this subject up simply because Willie could play shortstop, but because of its possible impact to a team that came oh, so close too many times. I'm guesing I'm the only one here who saw Willie take infield practice. He was really just playing around when he did so, but, darn, he looked good. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3956/don-fan?page=1#ixzz4lyKQYJVT |
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Post by Rog on Jul 5, 2017 10:51:50 GMT -5
Third, First baseman were taught to move your feet when you gauge where the throw was going...and you went in the direction of the throw.. Rog -- That's kind of what I was getting at, Don. Today's first basemen seem to take throws with their foot in the middle of the bag, although I did see a first baseman in the College World Series make a stretch from the CORNER of the bag that was as good as I have ever seen. He did the splits of a ballerina and still managed to keep his toe on the very corner of the bag before coming off from the momentum of his stretch. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3956/don-fan?page=1#ixzz4lyNSLiCT |
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Post by donk33 on Jul 5, 2017 22:27:33 GMT -5
first, Al Dark's was called Blackie well before there were any Blacks in Baseball. Rog -- Great point. The book I read said we "DARKIES" did pretty well," (based on his last name), but I wonder if it was we "Blackies," based on his nickname. I hadn't that of that one, Don. \ dk...most guys that I knew from Louisiana were on the dark side...Dark was called Blackie because he was on the Dark side...I guess .... Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3956/don-fan#ixzz4lyJEE4ti |
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Post by donk33 on Jul 5, 2017 22:36:45 GMT -5
Second, why do you keep moaning about Mays not being played at shortstop??? How do you know he could have taken the wear and tear at that position and still hit??? John McGraw moved Mel Ott from catcher to the outfield to save the wear on his legs Rog -- First, there's a big difference between wear and tear at catcher compared to shortstop. Also, there's more wear and tear in center field than right field. Much more running. Second, we don't know how well Willie would have hit if he had played shortstop, but there's little reason to believe it would have had a huge effect. Ernie Banks won consecutive MVP's at the position. That's as many as Willie won in his career. Hadn't thought of this before, but Banks is tied for the two MVP's that were closest together, while Willie singularly holds the record for the two the furthest apart (11 years). Isn't the thought of Willie playing shortstop and guys like Jackie Brandt, Felipe Alou and Ken Henderson playing center field enticing? Too bad the Giants didn't at least try it out. Maybe they would have if they didn't already have another "Blackie" and "Darkie" established there when Willie returned from the Army. In the sixties, the Giants kept falling just short. Willie would have enjoyed more chances at shortstop to show off his defensive magic, which might have contributed to a win or two. And having a guy like Felipe Alou in center field instead of Jose Pagan at shortstop might also have made the difference of a game or three. Could have been enough to turn those close second's into close pennant's. I don't bring this subject up simply because Willie could play shortstop, but because of its possible impact to a team that came oh, so close too many times. I'm guesing I'm the only one here who saw Willie take infield practice. He was really just playing around when he did so, but, darn, he looked good. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3956/don-fan?page=1#ixzz4lyKQYJVTdk...based on what I saw with Willie in pre-game practice in the 60's, Willie was have arm problems...he rarely threw more than a few throws in fielding practice...and he used to hook his right thumb to his bel between pitches in the game...a little trick I used to take a little strain off my shoulder when I had arm problems...outfielders didn't have as many throws as shortstops...Willie used to throw submarine style when he didn't have pressure to make a good throw... |
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Post by Rog on Jul 6, 2017 11:41:01 GMT -5
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Post by donk33 on Jul 6, 2017 14:32:45 GMT -5
Second, why do you keep moaning about Mays not being played at shortstop??? How do you know he could have taken the wear and tear at that position and still hit??? John McGraw moved Mel Ott from catcher to the outfield to save the wear on his legs Rog -- First, there's a big difference between wear and tear at catcher compared to shortstop. Also, there's more wear and tear in center field than right field. Much more running. dk...there is more strain at SS than any outfield position....Center field in the Polo Grounds was an easier position to play than the corners because the concrete walls and the slant from a short field at the corners and the triple alleys in both right and left fields,and the bull pens in fair territory ..When Babe young recovered from breaking a leg, the Giants had Johnny Mize at first base so they moved Babe to the outfield and they used him in CF so that he wouldn't run into the walls... Second, we don't know how well Willie would have hit if he had played shortstop, but there's little reason to believe it would have had a huge effect. Ernie Banks won consecutive MVP's at the position. That's as many as Willie won in his career. Hadn't thought of this before, but Banks is tied for the two MVP's that were closest together, while Willie singularly holds the record for the two the furthest apart (11 years). Isn't the thought of Willie playing shortstop and guys like Jackie Brandt, Felipe Alou and Ken Henderson playing center field enticing? Too bad the Giants didn't at least try it out. Maybe they would have if they didn't already have another "Blackie" and "Darkie" established there when Willie returned from the Army. dk I saw a lot of Brandt when he was at Rochester and he was very mediocre in CF...and in fact(?), the Cards moved him to LF when he first came up..I never saw Felipe play CF...Matty would have been great, though, if you don't need a power hitter out there. |
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Post by Rog on Jul 7, 2017 12:17:55 GMT -5
First of all, Don, let's realize that no one else here is likely to give a care about what we post on this subject. They don't probably understand the significance of it, and they likely don't really care all that much about Giants baseball until possibly 1962.
But let's look at what you're saying here.
Center fielders are required to cover more ground than any other position on the diamond. When the Giants moved Babe Young to center field it likely had to do with the most clear opening.
Jackie Brandt played left field for the Cardinals when they brought him up because their center fielder was Bill Virdon, an above-average defensive center fielder who I saw once take away a homer in left-center from Willie. Not too many guys leaped over the fence to take away a home run in those days, but Virdon did.
Naturally Jackie didn't play center for the Giants with Mays ahead of him, but he did take over center field when he got his first true chance when the Giants traded him to the Orioles.
But you're missing the point. He, the other players I mentioned and your excellent addition of Matty Alou weren't going to play center field as well as Willie, but they usually had clearly better bats than the guy who played shortstop, and their bats were usually clearly better than the bat of the guy playing shortstop. It's similar to the question as to whether it is better offensively to have the bats of Buster Posey and Brandon Belt in the lineup or the bats of Posey and the Giants' backup catcher.
What we're talking about here is potentially a non-event. It is also possibly a revelation. It is something that might have allowed the Giants to win a handful of pennants from 1959 through 19771 rather just one. No one was going to provide a glove as good as Willie's in center field, but the point is that he might have provided a bat that would have helped the Giants significantly.
We can simply think about how often the Giants just missed out on the pennant, or we can reminisce -- as we old guys tend to do -- about how they MIGHT have been.
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Post by donk33 on Jul 8, 2017 17:58:08 GMT -5
I don't know what you are watching in the phone booth or had watched in the old Polo Grounds, but both walls from the foul lines out were slanted so much that the outfielders played well off the lines so that they could both play the rebounds and prevent the ball going into triples alley....as a result, the corners have to cover as much or more than the center fielder..
I don't know what your statement about Babe Young means, but the stated reason the Giants had for playing Young in center field was to keep him away from the concrete walls....the walls are not padded for lack of a reason...several very good ball players lost their careers chasing balls into the wall....one of the greatest young ball players I ever saw come into the majors ran into the walls so often that it ended his career...Pete Reiser of the Dodgers....Pete might have been the best of all times...better than Mays and Mantle/DiMaggio...
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