Base running and Tim Flannery

[klaiggeb]

I remember when the Giants hired Roberto Kelly. His job was to teach the Giants to be aggressive on the bases, which, when he was the 1B coach, he "appeared" to be doing.

But after reading the article about us hiring Vince Coleman, and the 'lingering doubt' about Roberto Kelly...I'm not sure Kelly helped at all.

I think all of us will agree on 2 points.

1-We MISSED the Flan-Man these last 2 seasons

2-Kelly never grew into the job of being a good 3B coach

Vince Coleman 'appears,' there, I'm using that word again, to be bringing in MY STYLE of play to the ball club.

An aggressive, attack-style of base running.

When I played, and even more so, when I coached both baseball and football, THAT is what I demanded from my players and team.

Put your foot down, drive the pedal to the metal and when you've got your foot on their throat, don't back off. Finish the job.

I often had players who weren't fast but they KNEW how to run the bases.

If that's what Coleman's bringing to the Giants, I'm all in.

boly

[Islandboagie]

In my opinion Vince Coleman was a little TOO aggressive at times. He did lead the league in stolen bases a lot, but he also led in being thrown out regularly. As I recall he also wasn't that good at getting on base. When you're already not good at reaching base, it could hamstring the offense when you also get thrown out often, especially when you're a leadoff hitter.

Throughout the years there could have been a good amount of players that had the same amount of steals if they had thrown caution to the wind like Vince did. But would that have helped their respective teams win? Probably not.

Obviously times have changed since Vince played, pitchers throw harder, are more aware at keeping the runner close, and catchers have fine tuned their skill at throwing out runners.

I like what I see out of the Giants base runners now, they're conservative when they should be, and aggressive when they need to be.

[klaiggeb]

Vince had a HUGE problem getting on base, boagie, I agree.

He didn't understand what I consider the basic role of the lead off guy: Work the friggin' count and get on!


But he WAS an extremely good base runner.

But you are also correct, he was too aggressive. Speed guys often are.

However I disagree with you. Outside of Crawford and Pence, I am not happy with our base running, and IMHO, that starts with Bochy.

We have a couple guys who can steal, and a number of players who would excel at the hit and run.

Span, and Nunez, for the 1st one, Posey, Panik, Span, who make a LOT of contact, for the Hit and Run.

Bochy seems reluctant to do either.


Now part of my opinion might be based upon what I consider border line terrible coaching at 3B by Roberto Kelly.

I've coached the bases a lot, and a coach KNOWS his players.

Outside of Crawford, we are far too conservative for my tastes.

What I'm hoping Coleman can bring is base running SMARTS.

You likely never saw Dick Groat. Not a fast guy, in fact, barely average, but he was one of the better base runners I've ever seen.

Our players simply get thrown out too much at 2B with balls in the dirt.

THAT is caused, mostly, by a bad read and NOT anticipating the ball in the dirt so you're ready to go.

Coleman has his work cut out for him.

We'll see, but he's GOT

[klaiggeb]

...to be an improvement over Kelly.

boly

[Rog]

I often had players who weren't fast but they KNEW how to run the bases.


Rog -- That's not a bad description of Buster Posey.





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[Rog]

You likely never saw Dick Groat. Not a fast guy, in fact, barely average, but he was one of the better base runners I've ever seen.


Rog -- He was also a two-time All-American basketball player. In 1951 he was voted the Helms Foundation player of the year, averaging 25.2 points per game for Duke.

Bill Russell won the award in both 1955 and 1956, as his USF Dons won the NCAA Championship both seasons. Bill opened his varsity college career in 1953, scoring 23 points and blocking 13 shots as the Dons upset the #10 ranked Cal Bears.

Showing that runs scored (and RBI's) are a team stat, despite his fine base running and excellent hitting, Dick never scored more than 85 runs in a single season. He did so in both 1960 and 1963, when he batted .325 and .319 and was voted the MVP in 1960 and finished #2 in 1963.

In 1963 Dick scored just the 85 runs despite having 201 hits, 60 of which were for extra bases. The odd thing is that Dick scored just 85 runs, batting mostly second, while lead off hitter Curt Flood scored 112 runs and 3rd-place hitter Bill White scored 106.

In 1960, Don Hoak -- not Groat -- led the Pirates in runs scored with 97.

Dick finished his fine career with the Giants in 1967, but he was a shell of his former self, batting just .171 in 70 at bats. Dick wound up a fine career batting .286, but scoring only 829 runs in 7484 at bats. I don't know the reasons, but it's odd that as good a hitter and base runner as Groat was, he scored so few runs.

Then again, runs scored and RBI's are team statistics.





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[Rog]

Our players simply get thrown out too much at 2B with balls in the dirt.

THAT is caused, mostly, by a bad read and NOT anticipating the ball in the dirt so you're ready to go.


Rog -- I know that Willie Mays was said to be already moving toward second when he would see a ball in the dirt, but in reality, getting the best possible secondary lead is the best way to go. If one has his best secondary lead and moves toward second, he's going to run the risk of getting picked off if the catcher comes up with the ball cleanly.

I agree with you that the Giants would benefit from being more aggressive on the bases. I think you and I have been saying that longer than most. But it would appear that the area of moving up on a wild pitch is one the Giants should be less aggressive in -- or, as you say, get better prepared for.

The reason I have cited for being more aggressive is that in stealing a 70% success rate is about break even. Something similar would be true of taking the extra base. Yet runners are thrown out very seldom attempting to take the extra base. That tells me that while doing so selectively, runners should be more aggressive in taking the extra base.

Back to Mays, Willie definitely knew WHEN to gamble taking the extra base. He took big gambles to try to score with two outs, especially if a weak hitter was coming up next. Willie was very successful in doing so because he was fast, got good jumps, had good instincts, and was good at knocking the ball out of the catcher's glove if the ball did beat him.

Picture this scene:

Giants and Dodgers. September 7, 1966. Willie is playing right field because of a leg injury he suffered two days earlier. The game goes to the top of the 12th, tied 2-2.

The first two Giants go quietly against reliever Joe Moeller, bringing Willie to the plate with two outs and no one on. Perhaps in part because they know Willie can't run at full speed and fearing his power, the Dodgers walk Willie intentionally, bring up September call up Frank Johnson for his second career at bat.

Johnson singles to right (right-center IIRC, and IIRC the ball wasn't hit extremely well). Even the slowed-down Mays should make it to third, right? Yes. But he keeps on going as the ball is thrown to unsuspecting second baseman Jim Lefevbre, who belatedly throws to the plate. On a bang-bang play, the ball beats Willie, but he kicks the ball out of the glove of his buddy, John Roseboro. The Giants hold on in the bottom of the 12th to win, 3-2.

The hobbled Mays somehow scored from first base on Johnson's single. Hobbled. Couldn't play center because of it.

Such was the greatness of Willie Mays. I didn't get to attend the game, which was in LA. But I was watching it with vigor. Well, actually with my dad, but he was watching it with vigor too. I remember seeing the headline in the Chronicle the next day when I went to the barber shop.

For old-timers Don, and to a less-old-time-extent-than-either-Don-or-me, Boly, this is the kind of thing you guys come to the board to remember, right?

I looked up some of the details, but I remember the game like it was yesterday. Like last night, in fact. Of course I haven't watched any games since then, so I don't have any other memories to get in the way!

Sadly, the Dodgers would go on to beat the Giants for the National League pennant, overcoming an Ozzie Virgil pinch single with two outs in the top of the ninth that kept the Giants alive to beat the Pirates in 11 innings on a two-run homer by Willie McCovey. Sandy Koufax and the Dodgers won minutes later, 6-3 over the Phillies, to win the National League. The Dodgers went on to be swept by the Orioles in the World Series.

I will go to my grave wondering how many more games the Giants would have won (They needed only two more that season) if they had played Willie Mays at shortstop, the position he played in the army. Think of the fine outfielders they had in the sixties, many of whom were traded due to the excess.

I realize Don and Boly likely didn't realize Willie had played there in the army and sometimes put on an Ozzie Smith-like show when ht took infield practice before the game, but can you guys imagine? Instead of looking at the sixties as such a frustrating decade for the Giants, we might be looking back at it in a similar manner to which we will look back at this decade.

By the way, the last time I remember it raining as hard as this winter? During the 1962 World Series. That rain contributed to the soft outfield that kept Willie Mays' ninth-inning double in game seven from getting past Roger Maris in the corner, holding the speedy Matty Alou at third base and setting up Willie McCovey's line drive to Bobby Richardson, perhaps the sharpest Giants disappointment since Fred Mercke failed to tough second base.

In the Peanuts cartoon, Charlie Brown lamented "If only Willie McCovey's line drive had been a foot higher!" He might as easily have said, "If only right field weren't soft from the rain on Willie Mays' double!"

And what did Willie say about the play? He said that if he had been on first, he would have scored. Nearly four years later, even with Willie hobbled, he did.

For you younger guys that never got to see Willie in his prime, that is just one reason Willie is considered by many if not most to be the best five-tool player ever. Another play that might give one the same idea was when Willie tripled to center, and Bob Stevens wrote of the triple, "the only guy who could have caught it, hit it."

Not to mention the barehanded catch Willie made on the track about which Branch Rickey said, "That was the greatest catch I ever saw, and the greatest catch I ever hope to see."

[donk33]

dk...I had a pretty good stint as a pitcher in the Army but that didn't mean squat...the Giants had a very good shortstop in Al Dark when Willie first came up to the Giants...

For all those commenting on Vince Coleman....he was not hired as a base coach, only as a running coach...the Giants hired 2 other guys to coach the bases...

[klaiggeb]

That I knew, Don.

What I liked, and still like about the move is the aggressiveness that Coleman, in theory anyway, will be teaching.

boly

[Rog]

dk...I had a pretty good stint as a pitcher in the Army but that didn't mean squat...the Giants had a very good shortstop in Al Dark when Willie first came up to the Giants...


Rog -- I get your point, Don. It meant more to the Giants how Willie did in the army.

The Giants were well equipped at shortstop when Willie came out of the army, and there was no need to play Willie at short. Maybe if Alvin hadn't been on board, they would have.

I was referring to the San Francisco era when the Giants' shortstops were Darryl Spencer, Eddie Bressoud, Andres Rodgers, Jose Pagan, Ducky Schofield, Tito Fuentes and Hal Lanier. The period between Al Dark and Chris Speier.

If the Giants had played Willie at shortstop, where from all I could see watching him take infield, he would have been quite good, they could have kept more of the bats among Leon Wagner, the three Alou's and Jackie Brandt. The Giants' strength was in the outfield, and their weakness was at shortstop.


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[Rog]

Anyone else see that September 7, 1966 game? If so, what were your thoughts at the time -- and now? How about your insights into Willie Mays?

[Rog]

Vince Coleman not only stole 752 bases, sixth all time, he did so at an 81% success rate, 43rd ever and just ahead of Rickey Henderson.

Just voted into the Hall of Fame, Tim Raines was successful 85% of the time. Carlos Beltran holds the success rate record for base stealers with over 300 stolen bases, being successful 86% of the time.

Willie Mays had a success rate of 77%, and Barry Bonds was successful 78% of the time. Bonds ranks #76, and Willie was #131.

[Rog]

Here is the first thing I would teach base runners: Run the bases as if every base is yours until the defense forces you not to take it.

What do I mean by that? When you hit a ground ball, run as hard as you can as soon as you can, so you have the best chance to beat it out. If it goes through, run hard through first base with the idea of taking second. Start setting up your turn as soon as you know the ball is through. If you hit a ball in the gap, think triple out of the box -- and don't let your thought process slow you down.

Don't watch the ball after you hit it. Your eyes can't control where it will go, but they can slow you down if you don't run all out right out of the box.

Unless the ball is right in front of you, watch your coach. His job is to tell you whether to stop or go. Your job is to run as hard as you can until he tells you to stop.

I'll bet there is at least a base per game that is lost by not running all-out right out of the box.

When you're on the bases, look to see where every fielder is positioned. Know the arms of the fielders. Know how big a lead and secondary lead you can get. Know who the next hitters are, and which pitchers they are likely to face. Above all, know the number of outs.

[Islandboagie]

Sounds a lot like Melky Cabrera. One of the smartest players on the field, while being one of the dumbest off the field.

[Islandboagie]

Speaking of Melky... why not take some of the overload of scrap heapers we have, package them with a young pitcher in our system and trade them for Melky?

[Rog]

The White Sox did a wonderful job of trading off assets for prospects over the winter. They held out for very high prices and got them. I'm pretty sure they would be willing to trade Melky, but I'm not sure whether the Giants have and/or are willing to give up the prospects the White Sox would want. The Giants may have also turned on Melky and not want him back.

Certainly another avenue to explore though, and one they might look at more closely at the trade deadline.

[Rog]

Sounds a lot like Melky Cabrera.


Rog -- I wasn't sure whom you were comparing Melky to here, Boagie.