Another infielder? Seriously?

[klaiggeb]

Well, you can't say there won't be a massive battle for infield spots, that's for sure, because it seems we've just signed Aaron Hill.

Personally, I've never been an Aaron Hill fan. Even in his hey day.

He can play 3B and 2B but he's sure as heck NOT a SS, and that limits our need for him.

Then again, Tomlinson ISN'T a very good SS either.

He has Gillaspie-like hands on the left side of the infield.

Kelby only has a couple of things going for him which, IMHO, makes him the front runner.

1- He's a better hitter than all of the guys battling for a spot on the bench other than Kwang. And I only say that because Kwang is an unknown.

2-His speed. He's fast! No one else on our team, save Nunez can run with him

3-He can play ALL the infield spots, at least to some degree.

It would have been nice to have had him healthy all last year to see what he 'could have' done.

boly

[Rog]

I like minor league free agent signings and wish there were even more of them by the Giants. Overall, the Giants have had nice luck in this regard. The moves are very low-risk and even if the player doesn't work out for the 25-man roster, sometimes he is willing to provide minor league depth.

I agree with you that it would nicer if Hill could play short, but the Giants already have one of those guys in Jimmy Rollins. Under certain circumstances, they might even wind up claiming or even trading for Ehire Adrianza.

The bottom line is that Tomlinson is a pretty good hitter, even if a bit overrated IMO. His average dropped only to .293 last season, but he had only four -- FOUR -- extra bases. Over his career, less than one out of every five balls he has hit has been a fly ball, so the power isn't likely to become relevant in the future.

He hits southpaws. He's been decent against right-handers. He can get on base.

What Kelby needs to do to become a truly valuable player is to learn to play more positions. He has the speed to play shortstop, and his arm isn't horrible. He would make a nice platoon partner for Denard Span if he could learn to play center field. Again, he has the speed to do so.

Because teams use so many pitchers, teams today have a much-shortened bench. If a player can play a lot of positions -- especially premium positions such as shortstop, center field and catcher, he greatly increases his value. It would seem Kelby could become such a player, but he's certainly not there yet.

If Kelby can play second, third and short, he's a nice right-handed complement off the bench with Conor Gillaspie, who bats left-handed and can play the corners. If Kelby could learn the outfield, his value would vault further.

We wouldn't be so worried if guys like Beckham and Hill could play shortstop if Kelby could do what a non-power hitting infielder is supposed to do -- play at least both middle infield positions.

Kelby has the potential to be what every team needs -- a player who can play key defensive positions. He has little power, but he gets on base and hits southpaws very well. Right now though, he's a flawed asset. Just as Conor is. Think how much more valuable Conor would be if he could play the middle infield. Or even the outfield.

The Giants badly lack depth in center field and at shortstop. Tomlinson and perhaps Ruggiano are the best bets to fill those roles. It would seem that Eduardo Nunez could learn to play about anywhere, but the Giants need him to start at third.

Regarding Tomlinson's power, over his major league and minor league career, he has homered once every 250 at bats.

[Rog]

I believe I have found out why so many believe Nunez is simply a utlity player. Few realize his defense has improved considerably. He's been pretty good at third, and I'll bet he could be a lot better than he was at short too if needed. Maybe he's the guy who should play short if something happened to Crawford, with a platoon of Gillaspie and Tomlinson at third.

I'm not sure if Ron Wotus has simply built Eduardo's defensive confidence, but I truly believe he's been a much different fielder with the Giants than he was before. And that is even after he blew a couple of games defensively in his first week with the team.

[Rog]

Intriguing headline today: San Francisco Giants Sign Aaron Hill; Because Why Not?

[klaiggeb]

I'm in for all the minor league signings, too, Rog... I was just commenting.

boly

[Islandboagie]

With Aaron Hill being signed, my original prediction of Nunez and/or Tomlinson seeing some time in the outfield is starting to gain some momentum.

[klaiggeb]

I agree, boagie, it's sure beginning to look that way.

My guess is they are developing a back up play if either Mac or Parker or both blow chunks this spring.

[Rog]

I see mixed signs regarding Tomlinson in the outfield.

A year ago in the Fall League the Giants were excited by the possibility, but apparently he was so bad there that Bobby Evans even commented on it. Then he played little there last season (20 innings), but did make two starts I had forgotten. He played fine when called up.

It would really help his value to the team if he could be at least a fifth option in the outer ring. As a starter? I don't know about that. It would seem we would have heard at least something in regard to that being an outside possibility if that were the case. But it is quite possible he'll be the Giants' fifth outfield option, and it would nice if he's a real one.

I'd love to see Nunez in the outfield, but not now that the Giants didn't pick up a third baseman of note. Maybe a platoon at third between Gillaspie and Tomlinson, but I would think that would be only in a pinch such as an injury to Crawford.

Here's one point regarding the outfield: Who plays center if Span goes down? None of the other four we're expecting looks like a good answer, although Parker has played there on occasion. Call up Gorkys Hernandez? I guess. But that isn't an attractive option.

How about a much-needed platoon partner for Span? Could it be Justin Ruggiano, who has played center more than any other position? Can the Giants even fit a fifth outfielder on their roster. Would Tomlinson be a possiblity -- or Nunez?

I guess if he can make the roster, Ruggiano would be a decent possibility. At age 35 soon after the season starts, it's hard to imagine he still has a lot of range, but he's been an average fielder at the position and has raked southpaws. If we consider Morse to be only a first baseman and pinch hitter at this stage of his career, Ruggiano is the only NRI I can think of in the outfield. Aside from position scarcity, I don't see any reason why he wouldn't be the fifth outfielder.

The more we look at things, the more sure it seems that the Giants should carry "only" a dozen pitchers. That still leaves room for only five outfielders and six infielders. Baseball should really expand its rosters, but that's another story.

[Rog]

I agree with your point, Boly, that it would have been nice to add another NRI at shortstop. Maybe the Giants have confidence in Tomlinson and Rollins and/or feel Nunez could fill in there. Or perhaps they simply couldn't work out another deal.

I guess Nunez is the wild card. Gillaspie could be adequate at third against right-handers, and perhaps Tomlinson could play against southpaws if Nunez were forced to fill in at short. I would imagine if it were a short-term situation, Tomlinson would get the call at short. But longer term I would assume it would fall to Nunez.

I think, by the way, that Eduardo should be improved at shortstop as well as third base. He certainly improved his defense at the hot corner under Ron Wotus' tutelage, and I don't see why that wouldn't translate to short as well. I realize this base is more of a reaction position, but Eduardo couldn't play a lick there either until he came to the Giants and got established. The only thing I can think of is that with the slightly longer throw from the hole, his side arm efforts might curve away from his target a bit more.

Prior to coming to the Giants, 42% of Nunez's shortstop errors were throwing errors, while 26% came via throws at the hot corner. It might be worth noting that Eduardo's only two errors with the Giants came via throws and that he then went 45 straight games (and counting) without a miscue.

[klaiggeb]

Having played the infield... A LOT in my lifetime, Rog, here's what I can tell you about what it's like playing each position.

1-Hard hands are hard hands. There can be some improvement, but not a lot.

2-At SS, the fielder has a LOT of time to 'think' before the ball gets to him. Some players can't handle this very well, and I'm BETTING Nunez is one

3-It's a difficult 'read' for some players to see the ball off the bat at SS.

4-Not the same at 2B, and I'm not sure why. I was an outstanding 2Bman... but below average at SS

5-3B has zero time to think... he just reacts, which is why I BELIEVE Nunez was so good there. His hands and feet are quick! I was a VERY good 3B man Thinking always got me into trouble on the infield.

boly

[Rog]

I remember your thinking on the difference in timing between third base and shortstop, Boly. Prior to coming to the Giants, Eduardo had made 58% of his shortstop errors on boots, while making 74% of them at third base on bobbles. In other words, it is possible Eduardo made FEWER of his errors when he had more time. With the Giants, Eduardo has yet to make an error via the boot.

I don't know if it is coincidence, my imagination, hard work, proper training or overcoming mental blocks, but it seems like a lot of Giants infielders have improved under Ron Wotus' tutelage. The entire Giants infield plus Conor Gillaspie appear to me to have gotten better in that regard.

Buster Posey. Perhaps Kelby Tomlinson. IIRC you also thought Kelby was a horrible fielder at first. I think he too has improved.

[klaiggeb]

As far as Tomlinson goes, I still think he's way below average at SS.

At 2B, I'd rate him as average, no more.

Unless he plays his way off the club in the spring, he MAKES my roster, and he gets around 200 at bats minimum during the year.

I start Crawford NO MORE than 130 games, and the same with Posey.

Both players have shown a tendency to wilt during the later portion of the year.

I'm not a fan of Nunez at SS, but he's my pick OVER Tomlinson.

In another thread, I've listed I keep on my roster if they play well in the spring.

Guys like Beckham and Rollins would have to knock my socks off to make the club.

boly

[Rog]

I start Crawford NO MORE than 130 games, and the same with Posey.

Both players have shown a tendency to wilt during the later portion of the year.


Rog -- We both agree that Brandon has worn down late in some seasons. But I think 130 starts may be a little low. Brandon has been starting between 139 and 148 games, so perhaps cutting down to 135-140 might work, and if they clinch, the Giants could give Brandon added rest. I might give him a little rest by pulling him out of one-sided games a little more and a little earlier.

As for Buster, even with his second-half drop off last season (which I believe was induced to a great extent by injury), he has good career numbers in August and September. His 133 starts in the field in 2016 were the fewest of his career.

I would use him at DH a lot when applicable. (He DH'd five times last season, and that may not have been enough IMO.) Brandon Belt shouldn't need too much rest, and on occasion, Conor Gillaspie can be the substitute. I would play Buster at first base less often (which they did last season) and try to have him catch a fair amount.

When Buster won the MVP in 2012 and was red hot in the second half, he started a career high 140 games in the field -- although 29 of them were at first base. Let's not forget that as recently as 2015, Buster scalded the ball between August 30th and September 20th. It was when he began playing first base after Brandon Belt became injured that he started to cool off.

I like your idea of limiting the time Brandon and Buster play -- especially if they can clinch. But I wouldn't overdo it unnecessarily either. Especially in Buster's case. Buster has had plenty of strong second halves.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3739/another-infielder-seriously#ixzz4ZDPPgXpM

[Rog]

I'm not a fan of Nunez at SS, but he's my pick OVER Tomlinson.


Rog -- I'm keeping an open mind on Eduardo at shortstop. Prior to coming to the Giants he had a reputation for being a poor fielder REGARDLESS of position. Perhaps it was coincidence. Perhaps it was settling down at one position. Perhaps it was working with Ron Wotus. But while I do think we've overrated Eduardo's fielding a tiny bit, he has improved almost unbelievably even since his first few games with the Giants.

I read an article showing how Eduardo might have been the worst shortstop over a 600 inning stretch of any shortstop recorded. But prior to coming to the Giants, he was horrible at third base too. Prior to 2016, here were his fielding percentages at third base:

2010 .944
2011 .919
2012 .900
2013 .933
2014 .909
2015 .917


Fielding percentage isn't everything, but I don't think anyone has ever been a good third baseman with percentages that low. That's one of the reasons Eduardo's defensive reputation at ANY position was pretty awful.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3739/another-infielder-seriously?page=1#ixzz4ZDUTGREa

[klaiggeb]

Roger, again, you see with accounts eyes... I see Eduardo's HANDS at SS when he fields a ball.

Emanuel Burriss is what I see. Hard, not soft, SS hands.

boly

[Islandboagie]

Boly- Roger, again, you see with accounts eyes... I see Eduardo's HANDS at SS when he fields a ball.

Boagie- Nunez has only had 5 chances at shortstop in a Giants uniform, I have doubts that your eyes are THAT good. In situations like this maybe the accountants eyes have the better view.

With all these numbers coming to light I'm starting to wonder if last season's good fielding at third was a fluke. Maybe he's the defensive version of Cody Ross and Marco Scutaro.

[klaiggeb]

It's not a case of "my eyes being that good," boagie. They are NOT major league eyes.

But I know what to look for.

I coached and played the position too long not to.

Teaching is what I've always done, be it in the classroom, on the baseball field or the football field.

IF I don't know certain techniques offensively or defensively, I don't comment.

But evaluating defenders I DO know.



I saw a fair amount of film on Nunez when he was a Twin and a Yankee, and that, based upon his time at SS with the Giants... that's a lot to see if one knows what to look for.



But in all honesty, I DON'T need to see a player play a lot at a position to get reads on certain aspects of their defensive game.

I'm not Kuiper by ANY stretch of the imagination, but Dwayne has said the exact same thing.

Here's what I've seen and CAN evaluate fairly quickly

1-Footwork on fielding routine plays beginning with his approach to the ball.

Vizquel was the best I've ever seen. Crawford is darned good, too! Neither ever, or almost ever, got their feet crossed or tangled up. They were on the balls of their feet, their bodies balanced.

2-Softness/hardness of their hands when fielding a ground ball hit right at him, or slightly left or right of the fielder.

When I've watched Nunez play SS, again, on film, what I see are rock hard hands.

I've said this before, when he fields the ball, I'm reminded of Emanuel Burriss, NOT Crawford or Vizquel.

3-Footwork when delivering the ball.

Nunez has one GOOFY throwing motion, one I'd never, EVER teach. SS's HAVE to know how to throw off either foot and also throw when out of balance. But their is no need NOT to properly set up on routine plays.

What I DON'T like about Nunez' throwing is that when he has time, he DOESN'T set up properly, and he does that submarine thingy... which causes the ball to sink and fade, making it hard for the 1B man to receive.


What I DON'T get to see, and haven't gotten to see because I need a LOT of film, is Nunez Range at SS, so I can't and won't comment on that.

boly