One possible lineup

[Rog]

We have discussed many possible lineups for the Giants.  Against right-handers, here is one that would alternate lefty and righty hitters, making it more difficult for opposing teams to match up relief pitchers:


Panik         2B

Pence        RF

Belt           1B

Posey         C

Crawford    SS

Nunez        3B

Span         CF

Williamson  RF


Needless to say, the Giants could field a lot of different lineups, and as previously mentioned, because of their balanced hitting, their lineup likely matters less than with most teams.

Panik batting leadoff would surely be questioned, of course, and he would need to return to his previous form, but among current Giants, he was the best base runner on the team in 2016.  The above lineup gives the Giants speed toward the bottom of the order, which could lead to more manufactured runs in a traditional dead spot in the order.  With the exception that Williamson and Span should probably change spots, that order might work OK against southpaws too.

Batting Bumgarner eighth would also be a good plan, Stan.  Madison's the man.

[klaiggeb]

Ummmm. No thanks, Rog.

I cannot support, nor agree with ANY lineup that hits Belt 3 hole.

None.

And what is the point in hitting Span 7th?

His asset is speed, and in THAT hole, it's wasted.

boly

[rxmeister]

I don't like that lineup for several reasons. Unlike Boly, I have no problem with Belt at three, but I really thought he excelled when Bochy moved him to the second spot. That being said, I prefer Panik there if he bounces back next year. I detest Mac in the eighth spot. If he's the eighth best hitter in the lineup (which he could well be) then they need to pull the trigger on a trade for a left fielder before spring training. Also think five is too high for Crawford. He doesn't hit for a high enough average for me.

Nunez
Panik
Belt
Posey
Pence
Mac
Craw
Pitcher
Span

If Panik hits .240 again, he would hit seventh, with the others moving up one spot.

[Rog]

Regarding Span, hitting in the seventh spot CAN be a good spot for speed (although Span wasn't a great base runner nor base stealer last season). Yes, it's nice to have speed from the leadoff hitter, but, frankly, a team should be able to get any lead off hitter around a high percentage of the time if he leads off the first inning with a hit. Other than that time through the order, the lead off man doesn't lead off an inning much more often than players at other spots in the order.

If a subsequent batter hits a homer, a runner's speed is wasted. And homers are most likely after the lead off and second-place hitters. Of course, the Giants have less power than most teams, diluting that factor a bit.

Regarding the fifth spot as being too high for Crawford, it truly is. But the Giants' lineup unfortunately lends itself to his hitting fifth or sixth if the better hitters such as Belt and Panik hit higher in the order, which they should (assuming Panik bounces back, which I think he will).

Boly has made a good point about Panik's possibly not being able to return to his previous level, as was the case with Robby Thompson and a couple of others he mentioned. But Brandon Belt is a current example of a player who did bounce back, and I liked that Joe hit better in the postseason. That he had better strikeout and walk rates in the second half was also encouraging, seemingly indicating that he was indeed tracking the ball. The second half (after he had missed a month due to concussion) contributed strongly to career bests in both walk and strikeout rates.

IMO Joe should bounce back well. And as discussed elsewhere, the Giants do have Kelby Tomlinson, who could be a platoon partner against southpaws.

As Mark mentioned, Brandon Crawford is far from the ideal #5 hitter. Perhaps against right-handed pitching, Span should lead off, and the other hitters should move down a notch. That plays a bit with the righty-lefty alternation, but it might be the right move. Against lefties, Span needs to bat eighth.

Crawford was the Giants' RBI leader last season though, and as has been pointed out, has been a good hitter with RISP. If Panik, Pence and Belt all hit high in the order, IMO there isn't anyone better than Crawford to hit fifth. Perhaps that is another reason to have Span lead off against righties. Then move everyone up a notch against southpaws.

Nunez would be a nice guy to have lead off against southpaws, but he has a slight reverse platoon split. He had only a .295 OBP against southpaws last season, and for his career, he is even worse at .289. If Span is slumping, Nunez might be OK leading off against righties. His .336 OBP against right-handers last season at least wasn't horrible. His career mark against righties is .327 though, which gets into unacceptable territory.

If Nunez is going to lead off, he needs to find a way to get on base more consistently.

Unless he comes on really strongly, I wouldn't bat Mac Williamson ahead of Crawford -- at least not against right-handers. For me, Crawford's ability to hit with runners on base and in scoring position moves him up a spot in the order above where he otherwise might fit. And his .782 and .772 OPS the past two seasons haven't been bad.

As for Belt not batting third, there really isn't much evidence against it -- at least not against right-handers. Brandon was the Giants' best hitter in 2016, and he has a .815 OPS batting third over his career. Brandon doesn't seem to be intimidated by hitting anywhere between second and sixth. His OPS is at least .802 in all those spots, and he has actually been outstanding batting cleanup in 115 plate appearances, posting a .995 OPS.

The cleanup OPS seems a little flukey, but he has hit well enough in the two through six spots not to be a serious problem there. Where Belt has struggled is in the seven-hole, where he has posted just a .739 OPS. History says Brandon should be able to hit anywhere between #2 and #6. He shouldn't bat #7 or #8. He has only two plate appearances batting in the one-hole, although he did reach base in one of the two.

Boly seems confused by why I want Belt to hit #3 (or #2), but Brandon's past makes me wonder why Boly is so strongly against it. It isn't as if he's been unsuccessful in that role. While batting #2, #3 or #4, Brandon's OPS has been right around .850, or right around that of Buster Posey.

If you want to use Denard Span's career OPS against southpaws to show he isn't a platoon player, Boly, isn't it similarly fair to use Belt's numbers while hitting #2, #3 and #4? One thing about Brandon's performance in those three spots is that it hasn't been eroding badly in recent years, as has been the case with Denard against southpaws.

Are we using a double standard here?

[sfgdood]

I am continuously baffled why people insist on deciding a lineup when we don't even have a full roster yet. Can we not wait to see who will be on the team and healthy come April?

[Rog]

Your point is a good one, Randy. On the other hand, if we wait to talk only about the regular season, there will be almost nothing to talk about here for three and a half months.

[sfgdood]

We could talk about how Bobby Evans failed miserably at the trade deadline and whether he will show any signs of going for the brass ring IF he gets another opportunity.

[RogWe could talk about how Bob]

We could talk about how Bobby Evans failed miserably at the trade deadline and whether he will show any signs of going for the brass ring IF he gets another opportunity.


Rog -- Not if we limit our talks to the upcoming season, which won't take place until even after your Spring Training trip. Incidentally, it will be nice to receive scouting reports from you and any other posters who attend this spring.

Since it's not the real thing, Spring Training can be difficult to evaluate, but I'd certainly rather see a guy play well than play poorly. One important piece of your scouting report will be the youngsters, many of whom won't be showing up with the Giants in 2017. It will also be fun to see how the Giants' minor league contracts might pan out.


Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3656/lineup#ixzz4U4PBJX7i

[Rog]

If we want a chilling thought, think of the Giants without Johnny Cueto, Jeff Samardzija, Denard Span, Conor Gillaspie, Matt Moore, Eduardo Nunez, Will Smith and Mark Melancon.

[sfgdood]

A more chilling thought is waiting another 50 years for a title...a real possibility, if the Giants continue to count their pennies instead of wins

[Rog]

A thought just came to me as a result of this conversation. Brandon Belt would be a FAR better lead off man against southpaws than Denard Span is likely to be. I'm not suggesting Brandon bat lead off (although more because he is more valuable a spot or two lower in the order than because he COULDN'T lead off), but against southpaws, it appears he is likely to be far better there than Denard.

The funny thing is that many wouldn't complain about Denard's leading off against southpaws but would do so if it were Brandon. Not because they think Brandon would be better off hitting a spot or two lower in the order, but because they don't think he would be as good a lead off man in that situation as Denard would be.