Martinez not likely to become a Giant

[Rog]

Giants beat writer John Shea has tweeted that J.D. Martinez is unlikely to become a Giant unless the Tigers take back a similar salary in return.  I'm not sure who that would even be.  Matt Moore comes to mind, but he has three more years of team control.  Hunter Pence could be a possibility, but he has two years of team control compared to one for Martinez and is a much better fielder.  Plus, Pence wouldn't seem to fit with the Tigers' plan to rebuild.

So we see that the Giants are going to be hesitant to go further over the luxury tax threshold, as is pretty much the case with every team aside from the free wheeling Dodgers.  Perhaps they will move in that direction at the trade deadline, when they would pay only a third of the acquired players' salary.  That would also give their prospects time to increase their trade value.

[rxmeister]

I'd be more excited about going Mac/Parker if the Giants were doing it out of a feeling that they're the real deal, as opposed to the feeling that they're just doing it to avoid further taxes. That being said, I think the Duvall success has influenced them as well. They've always thought Mac was a better prospect than Adam, so why spend 15 million plus taxes on a player when they have a potential star making minimum salary? Last thing they want is for Mac and Parker to go elsewhere and do what Duvall did while they have a Pagan type in the outfield. As Rog said, if they don't get it done, there's always a deadline deal to be made.

[Rog]

If Martinez isn't traded this winter, his asking price should be less at the deadline, since his acquiring team will get his services for only a guaranteed two months (plus playoffs if they are earned) instead of an entire season plus applicable playoffs. On the other hand, acquiring teams can be more desperate at the deadline. But they also have less time to work out a new deal with the player before free agency.

I realize the Giants think highly of Mac, but if he goes on to become a star, I will certainly be wrong about him. And, yeah, I'd love to be.

[klaiggeb]

I hadn't realized the Giants thought Williamson had a higher ceiling than Duval.

Then again, I thought very little of Duval.

Why?

Firstly, I questioned his ability to make consistent contact, and secondly, there are/were few places on the field he can play.


Mac has a quick, quick bat....

But he keeps getting hurt, and his glove? Man! I see him Pat Burrell with much better wheels.

boly

[Islandboagie]

Boly- But he keeps getting hurt, and his glove? Man! I see him Pat Burrell with much better wheels.


Boagie- Pat Burrell with speed would make an excellent left fielder.

Burrell had good instincts, but towards the end of his career his range (due to injuries) was unacceptable at the major league level.

[klaiggeb]

I don't know, boagie... I remember him early on being not much more than a lumbering kind of a guy.

I am remembering poorly?

boly

[Rog]

I think that's why Boagie added "with speed" after Pat Burrell.

With Pat and others in mind, let's go back to 2010, the year the Giants probably picked up more to help themselves than any other season in memory.

First, on May 29th it was Pat, who had been cut loose by the Rays and to whom the Giants paid only the minimum salary. Coming back to his home (San Jose) area, Pat was somehow rejuvenated and became an important contributor.

Then came the July 1st trade of Bengie Molina for reliever Chris Ray. Ray helped a bit until he hurt his arm and became ineffective and ultimately was placed on the DL. This was a minor deal which wasn't of much help.

Third came their deadline deals. The Giants traded for relievers Javy Lopez and Ramon Ramirez. This was such a minor deal that at the time Lopez and Ramirez were described here as "ham and eggers," but the pair each had wonderful final months and became important components.

On August 11th the Giants made another minor deal, trading for Mike Fontenot. Mike provided some help off the bench.

On August 13th the Giants acquired Jose Guillen to improve their outfield, again in a minor deal. Guillen provided little help.

On August 22nd, the Giants signed Cody Ross off waivers from the Florida Marlins. The Giants didn't want Ross so much as they wanted to block him from the competing San Diego Padres, who were in significant need of an outfielder such as Cody. Ross went on to become a postseason hero.

The Giants picked up arguably their most valuable mid-season overall haul of any season in memory. But the moves were viewed as minor deals at the time or came accidentally.

The result was far better, but the 2010 moves didn't come close to having the same perceived significance at the time of the deals as the Giants' deadline acquisition of All-Star Eduardo Nunez, solid young starting pitcher Matt Moore and top lefty reliever Will Smith. The Giants made a much more concerted and expensive effort last summer, but the result in 2010 was clearly better.

When some here complain that the Giants didn't do enough at the trade deadline, they should remember that they were highly disappointed with the Giants' deadline deals in 2010, calling the pitchers received "ham and eggers." With 20/20 hindsight, we realize that only Javier Lopez among the many acquisition had a long-term impact.

Another intriguing aspect is that like after 2014, the Giants lost a free agent to the Red Sox (in this case, Cody Ross). Both Ross and Pablo Sandoval were viewed as big losses by some, but as was discussed here both times, both were simply platoon players.

Regarding Sandoval, while some Giants fans were saying "pshaw" when the Giants lost him, he is now entwined with two players named Shaw. Travis Shaw was just traded for reliever Tyler Thornburg, perhaps opening up a spot in the lineup for the recovering Pablo. Meanwhile, the Giants had drafted with the 31st overall pick they received from the Red Sox when Boston signed Sandoval minor league first baseman and high prospect Chris Shaw. Shaw could wind up filling a Giants need, as he is considered a very good power hitter in the minors, playing at both A+ San Jose and AA Richmond last season.

Shaw is limited to first base, but if he comes on, he might result in the Giants' shifting Brandon Belt to left field. Maybe that is one other small reason the Giants are willing to hold off on left field. I suspect Shaw is at least a year away, but should he make it to the bigs during the 2017 season, the Giants might choose to solve left field by moving Belt there. Shaw is considered a defensive liability, which would hurt two positions defensively, but we are all too keenly aware of the Giants' need for power.

Wouldn't it be ironic if none other than Pablo Sandoval provided it indirectly?

[donk33]

Dec 8, 2016 13:31:27 GMT -5 klaiggeb said:

I hadn't realized the Giants thought Williamson had a higher ceiling than Duval.

Then again, I thought very little of Duval.

Why?

Firstly, I questioned his ability to make consistent contact, and secondly, there are/were few places on the field he can play.


Mac has a quick, quick bat....

But he keeps getting hurt, and his glove? Man! I see him Pat Burrell with much better wheels.

boly

dk...evidently Duval can play the outfield but the Giants never really tried him there....he is now rated as one of the best left fielders with the glove....and he still has trouble making contact, but it sure is nice when he does....

[rxmeister]

Adam was actually a Gold Glove finalist, which shocked the hell out of me. As for Mac's defense, I thought it improved greatly as he played more and gained confidence. I remember him making a couple of highlight catches, and his arm will be a huge improvement over Pagan's. It's bad enough to have one terrible arm in Span, and another to have 2/3 of your outfielders throw like little girls. Bochy would be wise to pull Span for Gorkys late in games, and not worry about hurting Denard's feelings.

[klaiggeb]

If Adam Duval is gold glove quality, guys, then I'm Pope quality.

And I'm not even Catholic!



boly

[Rog]

Some think Adam is one of the top candidates for a steep drop off this coming season. I still wish him the best, and he was nice enough to fall off a bit in the second half after I traded him from one of my fantasy teams.

As for Adam's fielding, I think his good ranking shows how poor the left fielding is in the game right now. It is also possible he had a career year with both the bat and the glove.

As for Mark, once again you seem to be right on the money with your comments. It's downright disheartening to see how often you are able to do that!

Boly is right that Williamson struggled in the field early on, and you're right that he improved a lot as the season went on. Or at least that's how I -- and some others I have read -- saw it.

The Giants see Williamson as the better prospect, but I've got to give Parker credit for being able to draw walks, which helps his OBP even when he's struggling as usual to hit for average. If only Jarrett could make more contact!

[klaiggeb]

My problem with Williamson isn't his range. His speed gives him good range.

but watch his "hands" and "arms" as he makes a catch.

They are stiff; hard; rigid.

There is no 'give' in his hands when he receives a ball, and thus, as we have seen, balls 'bounce' out of his glove when he doesn't center pocket them.

Yeah, he got better, but then so did Curt Blefary, for those who remember him.

But Curt's nickname was "Clank!" for a reason, and I fear Mac isn't that much better.

We'll see, but please, just do me the courtesy of watching his hands and arms receive the ball before ripping me a new one because you disagree.

boly

[Rog]

Yeah, he got better, but then so did Curt Blefary, for those who remember him.


Rog -- After a tough start, Mac was something of a highlight reel over a period of a week or so, including some diving catches. "Clank" gloves often see those roll out.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3628/martinez-giant#ixzz4SMvD6XqC

[klaiggeb]

I don't know what highlight reel you and Mark are referring to, Rog.

I never saw him make ANY highlight reel-like plays.

Not one.

boly

[Rog]

I don't know what highlight reel you and Mark are referring to, Rog.

I never saw him make ANY highlight reel-like plays.

Not one.


Rog -- You and I both wish you had the TV hookup to see all the Giants games. In this case, Mark and I were privileged to see it, and I have also seen it referred to elsewhere, perhaps over at The McCovey Chronicles.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3628/martinez-giant#ixzz4SN0rdj1K

[klaiggeb]

I missed VERY few of the Giant games, Rog BECAUSE of BAY AREA NBC hogging some Friday night games.

I have DirecTV and the baseball package so I rarely miss a game, but DirecTV doesn't get NBC BAY AREA.

Mark lives in NY, so I don't think he gets NBC BAY AREA either.

boly

[rxmeister]

Boly, included free with the Direct TV baseball package, is the MLB.com package, and with that you can watch the NBC games online or if you have a smart TV, on the MLB app on your TV set. You can also hook up an Apple TV or Roku device for a one time payment and watch it on that if you have a dumb TV! I use it on all NBC games and also all games where Direct TV just has the other team's feed.

[klaiggeb]

Not sure if I understand, Mark.

How do I get any apps on my TV?

My TV is an HD, Sony.

How do I get the apps?

boly

[rxmeister]

Is it a smart TV? It probably isn't or you would know about the apps. If not, like I said, just buy an Apple TV or a Roku and plug it into an HD outlet on your TV. I know the apple one costs 99 dollars and it's a one time payment. It has the mlb app and you can watch the NBC games when they're not on Direct TV. Or as I said, just go on your computer and watch the games at the MLB website. They come free with the Direct TV subscription.

[Rog]

The Giants have re-signed Matt Reynolds, a 32-year-old journeyman lefty-reliever who pitched six so-so innings for the Giants last season. They had previously designated him for assignment in late September.

[klaiggeb]

Mark:

Are TVs sold as "Smart TVs?"

boly

[Rog]

Yesterday I watched part of the top plays of July. One of them was Mac Williamson making a sliding catch down the right field line, preventing three runs according to the announcer (whom I don't believe was one of ours). I also recall seeing a couple of months ago at least one and I think it was two sliding/diving catches by Mac.

Researching the topic at mlb.com, I just came across a sliding catch by Mac July 27th on a ball hit over Joe Panik's head. Mac want 84.8 feet to catch the ball and did so with 98.7% route efficiency. He slid in part to avoid the retreating Joe. Although he's not in the screen at the very beginning of the ball hit against Madison Bumgarner, Mac appears to have gotten a pretty good jump on the ball, which appeared to be in the air something over four seconds.

Then I came across the statcast film of the catch he made that appeared on the MLB July highlight film. It also came on a Bumgarner pitch, so Madison must like his fielding. On this play, Mac's first step came 0.27 seconds after the ball was hit. He reached a maximum speed of 20.4 mph. He went 96.4 feet to catch the ball. His route to the ball had a 98.2% efficiency.

No statcast on this one, but on June 1st, Mac made a diving backhanded catch toward the left field line on a line drive against Jake Peavy. The catch came against the Dodgers.

Then there's a statcast also dated July 5th showing Mac diving to his left in right field, also on a Peavy pitch. Mac's first step came in 0.23 seconds. His top speed was 19.1 mph. He ran 41.3 feet to the ball. His route efficiency was 96.7%.

By the way, these statcast figures show how scouting is being helped by analytics. On that last ball, a scout would say something like "Quick jump on the ball. Moved quickly to his left. Caught line drive in a full dive." Statcast tells us just how quick that jump was on the ball. It tells us how fast he ran at his top speed on the play. It tells us virtually to the inch how far he went to catch the ball. And it tells us how efficient his route to the ball was. It can also tell us exactly how long the ball was in the air, although I don't see that on these particular films.

To Randy, when you say "stats nerd" with regard to baseball, what you're actually saying is "really sharp scout." Teams have for a long time now realized that the combination of analytics and scouting is better than either one alone. In other words, the scouts don't know it all. The stat heads don't know it all. But put the two together, and we know more than we know from either one alone.

By the way, if you want to see these plays, just type Mac Williamson catch into your browser.

Back to Boly's perception. Early on, Mac made a couple of awkward-looking plays where IIRC he came in and/or to his left. Once I think he booted a ground ball. Another time I think he dived but had the ball fall out of his glove as he hit the ground.

Fangraphs rates Mac as a below-average fielder in 2015 but a little more above average in 2016. It shows him positive as a LEFT fielder in both seasons, each of which obviously comes on a small sample.

It appears Mac is a decent fielder, especially for left field. In a touch of irony, one of the the balls above was hit by ... Adam Duvall.

[Islandboagie]

I've seen Mac make nice plays, and I remember the game saving catch down the line.

But I also remember him going back on fly balls, looking very unsure of the flight path and where it was going. Because of that he would change his route multiple times. A few times it resulted in him dropping the ball.

Right now I wouldn't consider Mac a good fielder, but once he becomes comfortable out there I believe he could be.

[Rog]

It sounds as if Mac might benefit from playing deeper. Based on the highlights I saw and Boagie's comments, I'd say he may be far better at moving laterally or coming in on a ball than going back on it.