Who were the most valuable Giants?

[Rog]

Now that the season is over, who was most valuable?  Here are my own top five:

1.  Johnny Cueto -- After stumbling a bit after the All-Star break, Johnny continued to be the Giants' most consistent starter, including a heartbreaking loss to Jon Lester in the second game of the NLDS.  I hate that Johnny didn't get the chance to win the series in five games yesterday.

2.  Madison Bumgarner -- Although he slumped at the end, Madison had a marvelous season and for one start at least continued his amazing post-season magic.

3.  Buster Posey -- Apparently limited by a thumb injury, this was Buster's worst season offensively.  But he defense continued evolving, and he'll likely win his first Gold Glove Award.

4.  Brandon Crawford -- Brandon slumped off after a truly wonderful first half, but his great defense coupled with still-good offense over the full season gives him the nod over the other Brandon.

5.  Brandon Belt -- Brandon continued his very fine fielding and while he continued to be inconsistent, he posted a career high in RBI's while placing at or near the very top of the team in most offensive categories.


Others will have their lists and reasons.  I'm curious as to what each of us thinks.  I'm particularly interested in seeing the why's, since we each have different perspectives.

[klaiggeb]

Rog, to ME, and likely ONLY ME, I think the MVP of the Giants... are the loyal fans up PUT UP WITH THEIR 2ND HALF CRAP!

Us! We get the MVP.

Not a one of those players deserve it!

boly

[sfgdood]

Now that the season is over, who was most valuable?

Dood - what do you care? Your Dodgers are still playing...you can go watch them

[rxmeister]

Like your list, Rog, but would like to add a special mention to someone who will almost definitely be gone, and that's Angel Pagan. The rest of the team was so dreadful down the stretch that he literally became what passed for a power threat. Was happy for him because he proved he's good enough for another contract somewhere, although I'm glad he's not in the Giants plans. Something that gets overlooked, but stood out like a sore thumb this year, was the arms of the Giants outfielders. Span and Pagan might have the weakest arms in baseball, and you could really see the difference when Mac or Gorkys Hernandez was playing in their place. Span is already signed for two more years so we're stuck with him, but we can't do another year of players taking extra bases on every hit, and tagging up on shallow fly balls at two different spots. Bochy's loyalty really hurt the team here, because when asked if he would go with Gorkys and/or Mac late in the game he responded, "I'm going to stick with my guys." I know Span was unhappy with the Gorkys platoon late last year, and I don't mind if Bochy plays him every day against lefties next year, but I'd really like to see Hernandez come in for defense late in games.

[klaiggeb]

I'm with you, Mark.

Span historically, has hit Lefties well enough to play.

Gorkys... I've followed his career for quite a while... and he just has never proven he can hit at the major league level.

Watch his hands when he starts his swing; they go back, and up in a big, slow loop... preventing him from catching up with pitches.

Until that changes... all he'll be is a defender.

But for next year, I'd rather HE be that 5th outfielder than Blanco.


And you are soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo right about Bochy's loyalty hurting the team.

Actually, I would have said, "killing" the team.
boly

[Rog]

Another excellent post, Mark.

I'd pretty much forgotten about Angel. We just don't think of him as an MVP, but at times during his career he has been a real sparkplug for the team.

Great point about the dead arms. Span has none, Pagan's is so-so at best, and for a right fielder, Hunter has a weak arm. I'd go so far as to say there is little outfield defense. Angel was almost as bad in left has he had been in center. Denard's defense picked up late in the season, but he was well below average on the season. Hunter hasn't been a very good outfielder for a while now; he's simply been overrated.

Let's quantify that. Fan Graphs has Angel at -2 runs; Denard -4 runs; Pence (surprising to me) + 2 runs. Maybe I'm underrating Hunter's defense; maybe I'm expecting too much.

The Giants' five infielders including Buster are about as good as it gets in fielding. The outfield is well below average.

[klaiggeb]

Not sure I agree about your 'defensive' assessment, Rog.

Denard Span showed very good range for the entire season, it was his arm that was a question.

Hunter's arm is not weak. Not at all.

It's not a cannon, either, but compared to Span's arm, it is.

Pence's defense declined some, but you're right, he's simply an average defender. One has to wonder if he was 100% near the end.Something I've questioned for a while..

Pagan was not terrible in LF, and IMHO, his arm is average at best.

But his routes to the ball... his mis reads off the bat, his initial breaks...the worst I've seen since Marvin Benard.

In their ability to 'go get the batted ball,' I'd rank our outfield average to slightly above average... with Pagan being the guy that pulled the defense out of the "near" good category.

I believe most people over rate Pence, as you said, but also as you said, I believe you under estimate him.

That catch he made where he was falling down tripping over the mound is a great example of how his "I AIN'T GONNA QUIT" attitude makes up some for where his talent is declining.

But the Reverend Full Throttle can play for me ANY day.

boly

[Rog]

Especially early in the season, I remember several plays where Denard Span came up just short on balls hit over his head. They weren't easy plays, but he just didn't seem to have the routes or closing speed (not that he's anything approaching slow) to catch up to them. I thought there were several plays that weren't easy but that I thought he should have made.

I do think he improved as the season went on. But I think the Fan Graphs assessment of -4 runs wasn't too low at all. And I doubt more than half of the negative assessment came from his rag arm. Given up a base hurts a little, but giving up an out along with two or three bases hurts a LOT.

On thing about moving Denard to left field would be that his arm would be slightly less exposed there. And like Pagan, perhaps he would be a better left fielder than center fielder.

Pence's catch and throw after falling off the mound was one of the Giants' great defensive plays of 2015. But how many balls have we seen him miss that a very good right fielder would have caught? As for his arm, it's probably about average, or maybe slightly above. But for a RIGHT FIELDER, it's a bit weak.

One thing Hunter does do is hit the cutoff man well. It is to his advantage that he seems to know the limitations of his arm. Well, that -- and he seems to play good fundamental baseball.

As for Denard's arm, I was shocked at how bad it is. And was a bit disappointed in his ability to get balls hit over his head.

[rxmeister]

I don't think his bat plays as a left fielder and the Giants certainly don't have anyone who can play center everyday, so I don't think you have a choice here. Would like to see Gorkys late in games, but I don't think Bochy will want to hurt Span's feelings.

[Islandboagie]

Boly- Not sure I agree about your 'defensive' assessment, Rog.

Denard Span showed very good range for the entire season, it was his arm that was a question.

Boagie- Span has below average range for a center fielder.

[klaiggeb]

But boagie, he CAME to us with a reputation as a very good CF.

Mark even posted a remark about when he and his son went to a playoff game vs Washington... and Span making a dramatic, incredible, diving, impossible catch.

boly

[Rog]

But boagie, he CAME to us with a reputation as a very good CF.

Mark even posted a remark about when he and his son went to a playoff game vs Washington... and Span making a dramatic, incredible, diving, impossible catch.


Rog -- Denard was about an average center fielder in 2014. He was ranked #14 in the Bill James Handbook. He wasn't ranked in the top 20 a year ago, although that was in part because he missed most of the season.

What Denard was when he came to the Giants was an average center fielder who was coming off three significant injuries in the past season and had undergone hip surgery. Given that he was coming off surgery, it may not have been surprising that his range seemed to improve as the season went on.


Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3551/who-most-valuable-giants#ixzz4NT9qncp1

[Islandboagie]

Boly- But boagie, he CAME to us with a reputation as a very good CF.

Boagie- What does that have to do with you saying he showed very good range all season?

[klaiggeb]

Boagie, I guess I was just surprised at how others viewed him because I thought his range was pretty good.

certainly better than Pagan's, and not by a little.

It was really just a rhetorical comment.

I mean, when we got him, most Giant fans were very pleased.

boly

[Rog]

The guy I wanted was Fowler, who says his defense was surprisingly to him being criticized last winter. Fowler was expected to be more expensive (although it didn't turn out that way), which along with any perceived fielding deficiencies seems why the Giants didn't sign him. I had physical concerns about Span, but when the Giants signed him after three injuries in less than a year, I thought they must be satisfied with his condition.

Regarding Fowler, he said he felt he could improve his defense by playing deeper, and when manager Joe Maddon came to him with the same idea, it was an easy sell. This past season Fowler was limited by injury to just 125 games, but he hit .276/.393/.447/.840 with 13 steals in 17 attempts.

Fowler is 30, while Denard is 32. The Cubs paid Fowler $8 million this past season, with a $9 million joint option with a $5 million buyout for the upcoming season. Span's contract is 3/$31 million, plus a $12 million joint option for 2019.

Fowler likely would have been the better choice, but I'm not sure the Giants felt they could afford at the time they signed Span. I do feel that Denard's fielding improved as the season went along. Bill James' Annual didn't rank either of them among 19 center fielders a year ago. Two years ago Span ranked 14th and Fowler tied for 19th. I'm guessing Fowler gets at least a top 10 vote or two this time, but I'd say it's 50/50 Span will get any.

With the mutual option, I wonder if Fowler will opt out. The $5 million buyout is high, but he's coming off a nice season and might be able to gain the long-term contract he hoped for last winter. I wonder if the Giants would be interested, since that would allow them to move Span to left field. It was mentioned that Span doesn't have the power one would expect from a left fielder, but Fowler just might.

Fowler averaged 1.66 bases per hit in 2016, and forged a .447 SLG. One might say that was because he played in Wrigley Field, but, surprisingly, Wrigley played as a pitchers' park last season, while AT&T played just slightly a (believe it nor!) hitters' park. Fowler wouldn't be likely to hit many homers, but he'd likely bang out a bunch of triples. Fowler (.393 OBP in 2016 and .366 career) and Belt (..394 and .359) would likely get on base a lot for the heart of the order.

Unless the Giants are able to trade Span though, I don't see that happening. And the Cubs might well extend his contract themselves. I doubt the Cubs feel they need to make a lot of changes. If it's any consolation going forward, the Cubs' payroll is right up there with the Giants now, limiting their ability to add free agents to their roster.

But both the Cubs and the Dodgers have a lot of YOUNG talent, which will likely position them well against the Giants, who have been adding a modicum of young talent themselves, particularly in the bullpen.