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Post by Rog on Oct 6, 2016 0:40:16 GMT -5
Great game tonight. My son called me and said it was one of the best he has seen, and I don't think we can argue with that.
If he wasn't already, Bumgarner is the greatest starter in postseason history. And Gillaspie goes from a minor league contract to a huge hero.
I asked my son if he remembered the first time he saw Conor. He couldn't remember, but it was April 10, 2009, when the San Jose Giants played their second game of the season featured players such as Bumgarner, Posey, Gillaspie, Villalona, Noonan, Crawford, Ford, Kieschnick and Neal. One heck of a hitting team, and of the aforementioned nine, all but the tragic Villalona had at least a cup of coffee in the big leagues. Posey and Bumgarner are potential Hall of Famers.
Depending on how his career plays out, Bumgarner seems like a cusp Hall of Famer based on his regular seasons. But his postseasons could very easily carry the day. Despite his down season, Posey is getting close to being a lock once he gets in the requisite 10 seasons. Buster is beginning to gain considerable acclaim defensively, particularly for his pitch calling and framing.
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Post by donk33 on Oct 6, 2016 12:06:13 GMT -5
Great game tonight. My son called me and said it was one of the best he has seen, and I don't think we can argue with that. If he wasn't already, Bumgarner is the greatest starter in postseason history. And Gillaspie goes from a minor league contract to a huge hero. I asked my son if he remembered the first time he saw Conor. He couldn't remember, but it was April 10, 2009, when the San Jose Giants played their second game of the season featured players such as Bumgarner, Posey, Gillaspie, Villalona, Noonan, Crawford, Ford, Kieschnick and Neal. One heck of a hitting team, and of the aforementioned nine, all but the tragic Villalona had at least a cup of coffee in the big leagues. Posey and Bumgarner are potential Hall of Famers. Depending on how his career plays out, Bumgarner seems like a cusp Hall of Famer based on his regular seasons. But his postseasons could very easily carry the day. Despite his down season, Posey is getting close to being a lock once he gets in the requisite 10 seasons. Buster is beginning to gain considerable acclaim defensively, particularly for his pitch calling and framing. dk...and I still say Posey is highly over-rated....he doesn't call the game, he puts down fingers until the pitcher finds the one he likes....and he rarely frames a pitch and gets a strike..he wasn't framing very many pitches yesterday...and when he frames them, he usually loses the call..... |
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 6, 2016 12:24:53 GMT -5
I have to disagree with you, Don.
Posey's game has improved 10 fold since he first came up.
And watch him closely during the game... he is CONSTANTLY in thought... evaluating... studying each hitter.
EVERY catcher simply 'suggests' a pitch.
I look at the number of times pitchers DON'T shake him off.
He's impressed me, and remember, I was a former pitcher.
boly
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Post by rxmeister on Oct 7, 2016 8:45:27 GMT -5
I was just going to compliment DK, because he's been on Gillaspie since the early days, and then he hits us with the Posey comments! As I used to tell my children, if you say something and everybody in the world disagrees with you then you're probably wrong!
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Post by Rog on Oct 7, 2016 12:49:15 GMT -5
Here's the thing, Don. They now MEASURE pitch framing.
How do they do that? They take the number of expected strikes based on pitch location and compare it with the number of pitches that are actually called strikes. Some catchers just GET more strikes called, and it's often the same guys.
I mentioned that Buster might get more strikes called because he seems to be a nice guy who may know how to treat umpires. Maybe it's because he HAS learned to frame pitches well. Likely it's some of each.
But just as some guys are .300 hitters and others aren't, Buster is good at getting pitches called strikes. And that saves runs.
This also brings up a good point about stats. They are objective facts. I have little doubt that Don is a keen observer of the game. And that he truly "sees" what he is telling us, just as the rest of us "see" the things we argue on behalf of. But the stats tell us the truth.
Maybe Buster ISN'T better at what we consider framing to be. But he IS better to a high degree of confidence at getting strikes called. And that is why stats are highly important and the advanced stats -- such as pitch framing -- help us understand the game better. They tend to validate (or fail to validate) what we "see."
I think their most important value is that when they don't validate what we see, they should force us to think. WHY don't they validate what we "see"? Are we misinterpreting them? How reliable is their accuracy? (Some parts of the game, such as fielding, are tough to evaluate, whether visually or statistically.) Are we not truly seeing what we think we're "seeing"? Are more than one of the above affecting this apparent discrepancy?
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Post by donk33 on Oct 7, 2016 12:58:03 GMT -5
I was just going to compliment DK, because he's been on Gillaspie since the early days, and then he hits us with the Posey comments! As I used to tell my children, if you say something and everybody in the world disagrees with you then you're probably wrong! dk...I still think Posey is highly over rated as a catcher....remember how the whole board wanted to get rid of Conor when he was first up with the Giants...no power,etc...as if you have to have power players at every position....well, Gillaspie never became the player I thought he would, but he has been a very good bench player, and his fielding has improved....he doesn't have too much trouble getting his glove on the ball, but his throwing is still "thrilling"....good think that Belt is tall and agile....I still wonder when the Giants are going to try Conor at second...as they often talked about....  |
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