Bullpen blows another lead

[sfgdood]

Thanks, Kontos.

I hope we miss the playoffs. With this suck ass bullpen it would be humiliating

[Rog]

I hope we miss the playoffs.


Rog -- Now there's a true Giants fan.

[klaiggeb]

Rog, that's not true.

I totally understand what Randy is saying.

In fact, I voiced almost the exact same thing over a week ago.

We DON'T want to be humiliated any more than we already have been.

And make no mistake: When the Braves have a better record in the 2nd half than we do... when we were the BEST in baseball the first half THAT'S humiliating.

We couldn't even take a series from a team, THE PADRES, with mostly rookies playing and pitching!

Seriously!

That's ridiculous!

We have seasoned, champions... but their heads are stuck so far up their fannies that what they are doing is simply beyond words.

That's why I called them, call them, and will continue to call them CLOWNS.

boly

[sfgdood]

Being humiliated in the playoffs would just give fuel to all the ESPN pukes that doubted us in the title years. They will say, "see, they were just lucky." Rog will be happy too, for the same reason.

[Rog]

We DON'T want to be humiliated any more than we already have been.


Rog -- The Giants have provided plenty of humiliation over the second half, but those will be little humiliations compared to their missing the playoffs.

Think about it. Not bothering to hit -- humiliating. Bother to hit even less with runners on and in scoring position -- humiliating. Blowing lead after lead when the team actually scores enough runs to get a lead -- humiliating.

But should the Giants make the playoffs, those things would become a little less humiliating in the grand scheme of things. Should they make the playoffs and do well, those things would become quite a bit less humiliating. Should they somehow win another World Series, those things would hardly matter.

To say those things is his right, of course, but they don't show true fandom.

Showing true fandom isn't giving up on the Giants in 2014. Given that they went on to win the World Series, it doesn't show wisdom either. Showing true fandom isn't saying that one hopes the Giants don't even make the playoffs.

I get his point. But it shows frustration, not true fandom. A true fan is realistic about his team, but hangs in there anyway.




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[Rog]

Being humiliated in the playoffs would just give fuel to all the ESPN pukes that doubted us in the title years. They will say, "see, they were just lucky." Rog will be happy too, for the same reason.


Rog -- If one wants to question the greatness of the Giants, he would likely point first to the Giants' not even making the playoffs in 2011, 2013, 2015 and now possibly 2016. Then they would point out that the Giants didn't have the best regular-season record in those seasons and twice didn't make the playoffs until the final day of the season or won a single-game Wild Card play in. They might point to the games the Giants won not so much because they played well as they did because of their opponent's mistakes. (Although one would hope that they would also point out that one of the Giants' strengths was that they didn't make a lot of mistakes.) And finally, they might point to the luck factor.

Personally I think more than anything else, the Giants got hot at the right time. They were a good enough team to make the playoffs, and they got hot once they were there.

Were the Giants' the best team in 2010, 2012 or 2014? Probably not. But they were good enough those years to make the tournament, and once the tournament starts, almost anything is possible.

Being humiliated in the playoffs this year wouldn't be fun at all. But at least Giants fans could say their team made the playoffs. If not, it's easy for critics to point out that the Giants didn't even MAKE the playoffs in over half they years of the 2010's (so far). They might legitimately ask, how could the Giants have been a great team when they usually didn't even make the playoffs?

Anyone who think I would take pleasure if the Giants either don't make the playoffs or if they are humiliated once they get there is being very foolish and even delusional. It makes a lot more sense to point out what one questions about what someone else says than to tell us how that person thinks. Heck, I have a hard enough time knowing what I'M thinking, let alone someone else.

One last question: Why would someone call someone else a "puke?" Doesn't that kind of talk bring down the talker more than the person he is describing?




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[Rog]

To belittle is to be little. I hope to do less of it in the future. Perhaps certain things are just better ignored.

[Rog]

By the way, what is this sarcastic "Thanks Kontos?" George may have been the Giants' most consistent reliever this season. George gave up five runs in his first four relief appearances in May after missing a month to injury (came back too soon?), but aside from that, his monthly ERA's have been 1.59, 0.75, 2.45, 2.13 and 2.84. That's pretty good.

Take out those four outings, and George's season ERA is 1.83. Since those four outings, his ERA has been 1.88. I understand the frustration with Kontos in that particular game, but over the course of the season he's been quite good.

One thing I hope the Giants do this winter is to consider the overall when they evaluate players, not overload the weight of the second half. Think back to a player like Joe Nathan, whose postseason problems seemingly had the Giants overlooking what a fine season he had pitched. Clearly the overall in that case was a lot more accurate than the recent.

[klaiggeb]

George screwed up, Roger, and he screwed up BADLY.



He WALKED a hitter when he shouldn't have.

He's a freaking PROFESSIONAL! He's major league pitcher!

You CANNOT lose the strike zone like he did.

You cannot!



You may be tolerant of pitchers but I... I am NOT.

I was a pitcher, Rog. I KNOW how hard the job is.

I also know that sometimes the plate seems to move around.

I understand mistakes over the fat part of the plate.

it happens to EVERY pitcher.

Bu I am NEVER, EVER tolerant of ball four Rog.

Never.

I don't give a rat's patooty what George has done all year long.

In THAT game at THAT moment, it was all moot.

Throw god blessed strikes!

That's your JOB, George!

That one hitter, after all that's gone wrong, is not just unacceptable, but it "could" be that last straw that breaks the camel's back.

We COULD have gone up by a game and 1/2 over St.L

But we didn't

All because George:

1-Lost focus

or

2-Tried to be too fine.


My pitching philosophy is simple.

THROW STRIKES.

No.

I'll add to that.

It's what the Baltimore pitching coach for Earl Weaver used to say: Miller.

Work quickly.

Throw STRIKES

Throw low strikes.


At THIS time of the year, I am intolerant of pitchers who cannot throw strikes.

Period.

boly

[Islandboagie]

Boly- But I am NEVER, EVER tolerant of ball four Rog.

Never.

Boagie- Never? What about facing a hot hitter with first base open and runners in scoring position? Walking hitters is never the goal, but giving in is often worse.

No offense, Boly, but you have a rather unrealistic view of pitching.

[klaiggeb]

That's not what I meant, boagie.

I'm not talking about pitching around a hitter.

I'm talking about late in the game, score tied or with a lead, usually bases loaded.



And I disagree; my view is not unrealistic.

I've BEEN the guy on the mound.

I've BEEN the coach in the dugout.

Last night is a perfect example; Osich comes in... and immediately walks a hitter.

Krukow has said the same thing I said but in different ways over the years.

A pitcher canNOT walk hitters late in the game, especially NOT AAA hitters

Can't happen.

I expect them to be professionals and CHALLENGE the strike zone.

Kontos didn't do that. He nibbled.

Hope I've clarified my point.

boly

[Islandboagie]

Boly- that's not what I meant, boagie.

I'm not talking about pitching around a hitter.

I'm talking about late in the game, score tied or with a lead, usually bases loaded.


Boagie- In my opinion that's precisely the time when a pitcher should nibble, work the corners, throw breaking pitches that end up out of the zone...etc. Which is why I had a disagreement with your use of the word "never" about ball fours.

However, I do agree that it frustrates the hell out of me when a pitcher walks the leadoff hitter in a game that we're leading by more than one or two runs. In that situation, if the pitcher is behind in the count he should definitely challenge the hitter with a ball over the plate. In a close game where an extra base hit would make the difference, grooving one is downright silly.

[klaiggeb]

I guess for me it comes down to what I was taught in College baseball, and what I learned from professionals.

There are times when a pitcher HAS to challenge the strike zone, and one of those times IS when the hitter is NOT a thumper.

Pitchers should NOT be nibbling when you've got a non power guy at the plate, or an inexperienced hitter, as many of that SD line up was.

I don't challenge Myers, I DON'T challeng Solarte, I DO challenge just about every other hitter they had.

Kontos didn't do that... and it cost us a game.

boly

[klaiggeb]

Also, boagie, challenging the strike zone IS NOT grooving a pitch.

Challenging the strike zone is attacking the zone, but NOT heaving a NO THOUGHTER up there right down the middle.

boly

[Rog]

You CANNOT lose the strike zone like he did.

You cannot!


Rog -- And yet every pitcher who has ever pitched has done so. If we think pitchers can throw the ball wherever they want to, look at how often the catcher's glove is missed. I think the lucky pitchers are the ones who miss by 17 inches (the width of the late), not nine. Or 18 or more.




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[klaiggeb]

Roger, please don't forget that I pitched at a very high level.

I, more than anyone save Don, on this board, can say that.

As such I am incredibly aware that pitchers do lose the plate.

What I'm also saying is that what Kontos did, what Osich did last night by walking the first hitter, simply cannot happen.

It cannot.

Does it happen?

Of course it does... but when it happens, it is UNforgiveable because usually that means the pitcher:

1-lost focus
2-Wasn't concentrating
3-Got lazy
4-got careless.
5-Became TOO preocupied by the hitter at the plate.

As I told Boagie, I DON'T challenge the strike zone vs Wil Myers or Solarte. Against EVERYONE else on that team, I DO.

Why?

Because of the game situation; because of what could (and did) happen if I walk the hitter.

I've pitched in huge games; not major league huge games, but huge games none-the-less.

I'd rather throw a strike the best I was able and have it hit, than BB a guy.

That's letting down my teammates... and THAT is all the motivation I need.

boly

[Rog]

One of the reasons pitching is such a challenge is that it can be difficult to challenge hitters without occasionally leaving the ball over the plate. The pitcher needs to throw to the count and to his control that particular day, as well as mixing his pitches in case he does leaves a pitch in the hit zone. Several here know more about pitching than I, but I know that pitching is an art. It's getting a feel for what the pitcher can and can't do on a particular day. It's pitching to the individual hitter's weaknesses while still pitching to the pitcher's own individual strengths. It's about not being predictable, or changing the pattern if the pitcher has become predictable. It's about pitching to the situation and the game conditions.

Pitching is rarely as simple as simply challenging hitters all game long. Unless they're Greg Maddux, how often do we see pitchers miss their spots? It's far more often that one would expect from a major league pitcher. But that's because it's so hard to put the ball just wherethe pitcher wants it and still have something on it. Miss the spot by 17 inches side-to-side, and the pitcher may still be a hero. Miss it by half that much, and he's a bum.

Should pitchers challenge more to get ahead in the count? Usually, depending on how likely the batter is to swing at the first pitch. Should pitchers pitch to the edge or outside the zone when ahead in the count? Usually. And if the batter often chases, stay away even from the edges for a pitch or two.

I just don't think it's as simple as challenging hitters more. I think it's pitching to the count and to the hitter. In general, challenge early in the count. But each situation and each hitter are different. As is every pitcher. Begin pitching with "know thyself." Move on to "know the hitter." Then to "know how my pitching today is different." And to "know the situation."

Finally, pray that the pitcher (usually) misses off the plate rather than over it and that if he misses back over the plate, he does so by a foot and a half, not nine inches. Last but not least, pray that the fielders are where the batter hits it! And that when the pitcher misses right over the plate, the batter fouls it back. Or even hits a foul home run. Or is so stunned to see a pitch right down the middle that he takes it!

Pitching is an art, not simply a dart.

[klaiggeb]

It is an art, Rog. You hit a bullseye with that one.

That's why I used myself as an example.

I pitched actively from age 10 through age 30.

That's 20 years and then some.

I HAVE pitched in big games.

I KNOW first hand how difficult a job pitching is.


But that changes nothing for a guy who supposedly has good command.

I'm not talking a young Randy Johnson here, I'm talking Kontos.

He HAS good command.


To lose focus... to NOT be aggressive in attacking the Padre hitters...that flies in the face of EVERYTHING we/he learned about pitching when we were in the lower levels.


Again, I didn't pitch professionally.

I pitched in college, and in the military against semi professionals.

Those guys could flat out HIT!

But when the game was on the line, I knew WHO I could challenge, and against whom I HAD to be careful.


I never threw as hard as Kontos, but that changed nothing.

I HAD to get ahead in the count.

I HAD to throw quality strikes.

With power guys coming up, I could not afford to BB a mediocre hitter as Kontos did.


That is my whole issue.

That pitching is an art, that it's not easy... those are all givens.

What Kontos did cannot happen to a professional.

It cannot.

it did... but if I'm Bochy...or Righetti, Georgy-boy and I are having words.

I'm talking, he's listening.


boly

[Rog]

I'd rather throw a strike the best I was able and have it hit, than BB a guy.


Rog -- In most situations, that true. But no pitcher always throws the ball where he wants it. That's where the "know thyself" becomes important.

Remember too that there are situations in which walking a hitter is much better than giving him much to hit.




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