Who is the MVP?

[Rog]

This question will be more important 16 or 17 days from now, but as of this moment, who would be our Giants MVP?

I'd go with Bumgarner and Cueto fighting it out for #1 and #2,  with Posey, Crawford and Belt fighting it out for #3, #4 and #5.  Hunter Pence has missed a lot of the season, but he might be in there with the last three.

Incidentally, I know form many other posts that some here wonder why I have Belt there.  I guess several reasons would be his leading the team in homers, being second in both runs scored and RBI's, leading them in OBP and OPS, and ranking second in SLG.  Brandon is the only Giant to rank in the top two in each of those categories. 

For top reliever I'd probaby go with Derek Law.  George Kontos has been really good as well.  The "big guys" haven't fared too well.

Best rookie -- Trevor Brown.  Biggest disappointment -- Santiago Casilla and Jake Peavy.

[klaiggeb]

For me... Hunter missed too much time to be the team MVP.

Posey? He's not even in my conversation as Belt is not.

Panik? Same as Pence.

Crawford? Been slumping way too much lately, but he's in the conversation.

As much as it pains me to say so, Pagan has to be a part of the discussion. He's been steady, much steadier than I thought he could be.

For me, it comes down to 2 Cueto and Crawford. Bumgarner has been good, but no where near as good as he HAS been, or that Cueto and Crawford have been.

boly

[Rog]

Probably a good thing to bring up Pagan. I didn't include him because of his defense. Plus Posey, Belt and Pence have clearly out hit him, and despite his 2nd-half struggles, Crawford has been a good hitter with runners on and in scoring position.

Pitching-wise, Bumgarner has had one of his best seasons. In a season in which AT&T hasn't been as much of a pitchers' park, he has his lowest ERA, as well as a career-high strikeout rate and the second-lowest hit rate of his career. Having yielded more than four earned runs only once on the season, he's been the Giants' most consistent starter. 23 of his 31 starts have been quality starts.

I think we're feeling he hasn't been as good as in the past because he hasn't been pitching so well lately. Over the season, he leads Giants starters in a lot of categories, including ERA. Although Cueto may split some away, Madison will likely get some Cy Young votes, especially if the Giants make the playoffs he can up his win total.

We've been talking about consistency with regard to Brandon Belt, so clearly it's important to us. Bumgarner has been far more consistent than Crawford, who is hitting just .245 with a .700 OPS in the second half. Bumgarner's 3.87 ERA in the second half is almost exactly twice his first-half ERA, but that is mostly because his first half was so good. A 3.87 ERA is a lot better than .245 with a .700 OPS. We've been critical of Belt's second half, yet he has had nearly half again as many RBI's as Crawford.

Speaking of RBI's, Crawford still leads Belt, but Belt has been the better hitter with runners on and in scoring position. With runners in scoring position, Crawford has hit .292 with a .451 SLG. Belt has gone .290/.476. With runners on base, Belt's .317/.525 blows Crawford's .290/.417 away. Crawford does have a large advantage in sacrifice flies, 9 to 4.

If the All-Star team were being picked now, Cueto, Bumgarner and probably Posey would make it. Crawford and Belt probably wouldn't, although Crawford might sneak in because Trevor Story is out with a season-ending injury, and Aledmys Diaz has missed a large chunk of the season.

Crawford hasn't been as good as Bumgarner, and he certainly hasn't been as consistent.

[klaiggeb]

Roger-Pitching-wise, Bumgarner has had one of his best seasons.

****boly***

I'm sorry Rog, but WHAT? The freaking hell are you smoking?

Oh, wait. You're looking at his numbers.

Silly me.

I'm looking at his performance in the 2nd: all the leads he failed to hold.

His losses to teams like San Diego when it mattered MOST.

I see all of his SUB PAR performances that have cause ME to post questions like: What's wrong with Madison?

He deserves to be the MVP like I deserve to be the Pope.

And I'm not even a freaking catholic!


I'm sorry, Rog, you're my friend, but your obsession with numbers is blinding you to what's happening right in front of your face.


This is NOT the Bumgarner that we saw come in, in relief against KC to win the WS.

This is NOT the Bumgarner we've seen in post season play.

This is NOT the Bumgarner who, the bigger the stage, the bigger the performance.

You keep looking at your numbers, and I'll keep seeing what's right in front of my face.

What he' NOT doing that he did before.

boly

[sfgdood]

I say it's Cueto or Crawford...the leaders in wins and RBI

[Rog]

I think Cueto is an excellent pick, and no question Crawford has had a very fine season. But if we're going to criticize the other Brandon for his bad second half, we might want to remember that Crawford has barely two-thirds the second half RBI's Belt has. Belt has continued his fine hitting with runners on base and in scoring position. Crawford was better in the first half, but has really fallen off.

Brandon has continued his fine fielding this season, but he's been little better than an average hitter who has provided the benefit of some timely hits. I'd put him in the second tier of Giants MVP candidates. He probably hasn't had an MVP caliber season given the high level of other shortstops.

[klaiggeb]

Crawford's second half slump has been noteworthy, Rog.

Good point.

It is for that reason I couldn't select him.

boly

[sfgdood]

Can you name me one Giant hitter who HASN'T slumped badly or been injured Boly? I can't think of one. Craw has given great production and fantastic defense.

[klaiggeb]

Every player on every team has slumped.

Even Cueto.

Crawford is my second pick... but here's why I can't select him #1

Down the stretch, particularly in these last 2 weeks...when it counted the MOST... Cueto came up big, bigger, and biggest.

Crawford?

Continues to struggle at the plate.

If forced to pick, for ME... it's Cueto going away.

And you KNOW the problems I've had with him.

boly

[sfgdood]

To me, an MVP should play every day. And I don't put more or less weight to stats during any particular stretch of the season. All games count the same.

[Islandboagie]

Does it matter? The team as a whole is a joke.

It was a good 3 championships, those players and those teams will go down as my favorites of all time. But those championship teams are only in the rearview mirror. This team now is incapable of doing anything remotely the same. The bullpen is gone and that was what separated us from the rest.

We should have beefed up our bullpen this off season rather than wasting money on Span and Samardjiza, like I wanted, but I won't say I told you so.

[klaiggeb]

You were right, boagie. No question.

Thing is, I believe we could have done both.

I think Span, who has NOT been what I expected, was needed.

Samardizja was needed, too.

But that bullpen...Sheesh!

Remember, at the trade deadline, THAT is what I first suggested we do.

Though I'm NOT unhappy with the acquisition of Moore, I AM not happy with Smith.

boly

[Islandboagie]

I think Span, who has NOT been what I expected, was needed.


Boagie- A .326 OBP was not needed out of the leadoff spot. Not from a guy who is bad defensively with a terrible arm. That's the type of player you need gone.

[Rog]

Can you name me one Giant hitter who HASN'T slumped badly or been injured Boly?


Rog -- That's why I would go with Cueto or Bumgarner. Neither of them have been great in the second half either, but neither collapsed -- and part of the reason they haven't been as good is that they were FABULOUS in the first half.

[Rog]

To me, an MVP should play every day.

Rog -- To me, the MVP should be ... the most valuable player. Everyday players play more frequently, but as an example, Madison Bumgarner has faced 858 batters, while Brandon Crawford has 591 plate appearances. One could certainly argue on behalf of Crawford's defense, and he has 601 chances. But the difference in fielders in outs turned and total bases saved is far less than the difference a batter or pitcher makes.

If we value defense equally with hitting, I'd go with Crawford. But as important as defense is -- especially from a shortstop -- hitting is even more important. And even though he pitches only once in five days, a top starting pitcher faces more hitters than the top hitters have plate appearances.

The best player in the game is Clayton Kershaw. Even though he's "just" a pitcher, when he plays a full season, one could almost argue on behalf of him being the most valuable player. For me, this year it's been the top two pitchers for the Giants. No single everyday player has had an outstanding season, while those two have.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3496/who-mvp?page=1#ixzz4Kpt71PPQ

[donk33]

Crawford hit .299 in August...which is a chunk of the second half. I would like to see the Giants give Crawford the Posey treatment...lots of rest during the season so that he doesn't fall apart in September ......the Dodgers played better without Kershaw...does that mean he is their MVP? As I said during the winter, the Giants need a homer hitting, right hand hitter for LF..I'm sorry Williamson is not the guy.....and they need a closer...

[klaiggeb]

I agree, Don.

Each and every year Crawford has struggled in the 2nd half. To ME... that's a sign of fatigue.

boly

[Rog]

the Dodgers played better without Kershaw...does that mean he is their MVP?


Rog --It certainly doesn't. But it also doesn't mean that he's not. Certainly the Dodgers played very well without him, but it is highly unlikely that they played better because he wasn't there. One could argue that the Dodgers would have been so far behind without Kershaw prior to his injury that it would have been really tough to come back.

The sad thing for the Giants is that the Dodgers have Urias (20), De Leon (24), Kershaw (28), Maeda (28), Kazmir (32) and McCarthy (32). They also have Rich Hill at 36. What makes it worse is that the Dodgers have Kershaw, Urias and De Leon under team control for six years or more.

I really hope the Giants can do it again this year, because the window may be beginning to close.


Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3496/who-mvp#ixzz4KucYKuvo

[Rog]

Each and every year Crawford has struggled in the 2nd half. To ME... that's a sign of fatigue.


Rog -- Brandon hasn't played as well over his career in the second half (.683 OPS) as in the first (.726), but he hasn't fallen off a cliff, either. I think injuries have also contributed to the decline, although one can also argue that the injuries may have been contributed to by fatigue.

I'm not sure about this one, but I believe Brandon's fielding has been better in the second half. Only 31 of his 85 career errors have come after the break.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3496/who-mvp?page=1#ixzz4KufSWIwI

[Rog]

I'm looking at his performance in the 2nd: all the leads he failed to hold.


Rog -- Looking too heavily at the second half is a problem, isn't it? Madison's ERA in the second half is more than a run and a half higher. Wouldn't it make more sense to focus on the entire season?




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3496/who-mvp?page=1#ixzz4KuiBEzvj

[Rog]

I'm sorry, Rog, you're my friend, but your obsession with numbers is blinding you to what's happening right in front of your face.


Rog -- Not really. I think our difference is that I'm focusing on the season as a whole, while you're focusing more heavily in the second half. You keep citing all the times in the second half that Madison has blown leads, but you don't seem to hold that against Cueto.

Here are the second half leads Madison has blown:

July 27 1-0

Sept 3 2-0

Sept 9 1-0


And Johnny:

August 3 4-0

August 30 1-0

Sept 4 1-0

Sept 15 2-0


Johnny has blown four leads to Madison's three. Johnny has blown eight runs of leads to Madison's four.

Don't get me wrong. I like Johnny more than Madison. Johnny is easily my favorite Giants pitcher. But the two's pitching has been pretty close.

Madison has pitched 2/3 more inning. He's given up 20 fewer hits. He's given up 5 fewer earned runs. He's struck out 54 more batters. He has given up 8 more home runs and 12 more walks.

Let's suppose Madison HAD given up more leads. That likely would also mean he DEVELOPED more.

Madison has given up 1 or fewer earned runs 15 times; Johnny, 16 times. Madison has given up 2 or fewer earned runs 21 times; Johnny, 20. How close is THAT?

They are identical in giving up four earned runs and five, four times and one time each. But Johnny has given up six earned runs twice, while Madison has never given up more than five.

The two have had very similar seasons.

Yes, I'm looking only at numbers (and situations) here. If I'm off base, all anyone has to do is demonstrate it. Otherwise, it appears our memories aren't as good as we wish. Which is one of the reasons the numbers are so important. What we see and what we remember aren't always the same.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3496/who-mvp?page=1#ixzz4Kuin7p4x

[Rog]

Remember, at the trade deadline, THAT is what I first suggested we do.


Rog -- Of course the bullpen was clearly the number one area to address. And the Giants did acquire Will Smith, whom I believe you will like more the more you see him. He hasn't give up a run in a month, during which he has yielded only three hits. He's walked way too many, but he hasn't yielded a free pass in his last six appearances.

Will blew one save with the Giants, but he also has 10 holds. Remember too that the Giants have Smith under team control for three more seasons, which is a nice asset to have.

It's easy to criticize the Giants for not acquiring Aroldis Chapman, but the Cubs gave up three prospects including Gleyber Torres (#28 overall) and Billy McKinney (#88) plus Adam Warren (6-3 with 12 holds and three blown saves). Should the Giants have given up say their top three prospects and George Kontos? For a marvelous pitcher whom they could lose to free agency this winter?

Maybe they should have taken a bigger run at Mark Melancon, but the Nationals gave up starter/reliever Taylor Hearn, who has a 2.44 ERA and nearly a strikeout and a half per inning at age 21 in Class A this year. They gave up immediate help too. Felipe Rivero has a 1.57 ERA and also nearly a strikeout and a half per innings -- in the majors for the Pirates. But Melancon is also eligible for free agency this winter and will command a ton of bucks.

It was obvious the Giants needed relief help at the deadline. You knew it. I knew it. Everyone else on the board knew it. The Giants knew it. But they weren't willing to give up a ton to get a top closer they might have for only two months before losing him. They control Smith, a potential closer himself, for another three years after this season.

We criticized the Giants for not doing enough at the deadline, but they got a solid #3 starter (Matt Moore), a very nice third baseman who can play every position except catcher (Eduardo Nunez), and Smith. Not many teams did more at the deadline than the Giants, who had need for a healthy third baseman, an outfielder, a good starting pitcher and a good reliever (or two) at the deadline. They got three of the four.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3496/who-mvp?page=1#ixzz4KurjOGMl

[Rog]

Here are two reasons I would take Madison Bumgarner over Brandon Crawford for the team MVP.

. Madison had a better first half.

. Madison has had a better second half.


Check with me again after the postseason.

[klaiggeb]

You're making a goofy assumption that we will even have one, rog.

I'm not.

boly

[Rog]

Every team has a most valuable player, even if that player is simply less destructive than the others.

I like both starters (Johnny is my favorite pitcher), and despite their inconsistencies and in Buster's case a down season with the bat, I would take Buster and the two Brandons on the offensive side, in part because of their fine defense -- especially Crawford and Posey. Even though he has missed a lot of the season, one could make an argument for Hunter Pence, the team's inspirational leader. But as we see on occasion, Hunter's defense isn't anywhere close to the other three.

I do love Hunter though. If I could choose a player to be like character-wise, he would rank at or near the top. Buster, Joe Panik and Crawford too. Gotta love those guys. Matt Duffy during his time here too.

The Giants do build a team of quality individuals, which may have contributed a huge amount to their postseason success with teams that were good but not great.