|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 9, 2016 20:15:08 GMT -5
Posting this hurts, and I mean really, really hurts.
This WAS the best SF Giant team on paper that I've ever seen.
But injuries, Belt, and Posey queered the deal big time.
Big time.
The failure of those two, first and foremost, sunk the ship.
Oh, for sure, there were other problems along the way.
There always is:
Samardizja's implosion in the middle of the season.
Cain's INABILITY to do anything.
Casilla's "outstanding" ability to blow saves is way up there, too.
But moving forward, these are the things I believe we have, and the things we need, in order of importance.
1-We have a GREAT rotation in place, 1-4. And I'd let Suarez and Blach battle it out for the 5 spot.
2-Sans 1B, we have a really good infield in place
3-We can and should pick up a FA in Free agency.
4-We MUST shore up the bullpen.
Osich has been beyond disappointing.
Smith, well, I ain't sold on him one bit! Not for what we gave up!
Strickland and Law came along nicely, but Strickland closing? No thanks.
5-We NEED a LF I pray they do NOT sign Angle-bad-route-to-the-ball Pagan again. I don't want him back at any price.
Is it enough... will it be enough to upend a good Dodger team?
No, I don't believe it is.
But again, IF people stay mostly healthy, we'd have a shot.
boly
|
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 9, 2016 20:15:56 GMT -5
For # 3 above, I meant to say 1st baseman in FA
boly
|
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Sept 10, 2016 2:25:50 GMT -5
This WAS the best SF Giant team on paper that I've ever seen. But injuries, Belt, and Posey queered the deal big time. Big time. Rog -- It's kind of hard to reconcile a team that was truly the best SF Giants team on paper, then add Mike Moore, Eduardo Nunez and Will Smith to the team and then think the team won't make the playoffs -- even with injuries and down season by Posey. Belt is quite possibly having his best season (He's already set a new career high in RBI's.), so I'm not sure how you can see him as a downward force. I doubt Brandon will hit another five home runs this year, but if he does, he'll almost certainly make your 20/80 benchmark with room to spare. This year's Giants were never the best team in their SF history. The 1962 team and the 1993 group were almost certainly better. Best team, add Moore, Nunez and Smith and then have us think they won't make the playoffs? Those things just don't fit together. If anyone here truly believes they do, please show us how. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3483/looking-ahead-sigh#ixzz4JpqhGwfJ |
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 10, 2016 10:40:41 GMT -5
The Diamondback announcers, in particular, Bob Brenly expressed the same thought multiple times last night.
He was stunned speechless by what has happened, as is everybody.
I loved those 1962 Giants, Rog, I really, really did.
But on paper, THIS year's team, IMHO, was better.
Less power to be sure, but better.
Bumgarner
Cueto
Jeffy
Before the season began, better than Sanford, O'dell and a very young Juan Marichal.
Our closers and pen were MUCH BETTER than what those 62 Giants had: Miller, Larsen, Bolin and a prayer...on papere
I am one of the few posters here who lived through both teams, saw both extensively, and RESEARCHED both extensively.
We stay healthy, this team was better, Mays or no Mays.
Everyone seems to forget that prior to 62, Kuenn was UNWANTED by Detroit, and was coming off a poor previous season, and he was obviously aging.
They had NO 2Bman. Read Russ Hodges book, My Giants. They tried everyone they could to NOT play Chuck Hiller at 2B
Pagan was no big deal at SS, Davenport was a .260 hitter, and they were considering moving Felipe Alou because they weren't sure he'd ever develop! He hadn't so far.
Haller was a rookie, and Bailey, and aging catcher with a so-so arm.
McCovey had yet bloomed, and that left Mays and Cepeda to carry the team.
I remember that team, and I remember it well!
boly
|
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Sept 12, 2016 9:49:33 GMT -5
Bumgarner Cueto Jeffy Before the season began, better than Sanford, O'dell and a very young Juan Marichal. Rog -- I too would give the nod to the current trio, although because the 1962 team was clearly better at #3, it was close. What made the 1962 rotation better was Billy Pierce, who as the #4 starter went 16-6 with a 3.49 ERA. The Giants had not one but two starters who were better than Samardzija at #3. One thing we shouldn't forget about Samardzija is that a year ago his ERA was 4.96. This season is has improved only to 4.00. This year's team is slightly stronger one through three, but the 1962 team was far better one through four. Hence the need to trade for Matt Moore, dropping Samardzija down to #4, which is about where he has pitched. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3483/looking-ahead-sigh#ixzz4K3LBlImv |
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 12, 2016 12:32:33 GMT -5
But what has Jeff done in his last 7 or 8 games?
And you're also forgetting Pierece's previous season when NO ONE wanted him. And that 1961 season wasn't bad!
Samardizja was highly pursued this off season, Pierce was not after his 1961 season. Hodges described it as the White Sox thought he had fallen so far that he wasn't worth the effort to keep.
If you can find it, Rog, read Russ Hodges' book, "My Giants."
It's out of print, but for all all long time Giant fans, it's a MUST read, and an outstanding explaination of that 1962 season.
boly
|
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Sept 13, 2016 2:31:31 GMT -5
But what has Jeff done in his last 7 or 8 games? And you're also forgetting Pierece's previous season when NO ONE wanted him. And that 1961 season wasn't bad! Rog -- First things first. What has Samardzija done in his last seven or eight games? His best would be seven games, where he's gone 2-2 with a 3.09 ERA and the Giants' winning three of the seven games. That's pretty good pitching on his part. But wouldn't it make a lot more sense to look at his 4.00 ERA on the season? Or perhaps you're prefer to look at Pierce's last seven games, where he went 3-1 with a 2.64 ERA and a save. As for Pierce's previous season (1961) when "NO ONE wanted him," why wouldn't they when he went 14-7 with a 3.67 ERA in 1960? There are some who consider Billy to be one of the most underrated pitchers in history. Sandy Koufax retired at age 30 with a 2.76 ERA. At the end of his age 31 season, Pierce's career ERA was 3.13 and he had pitched more innings than Sandy over Sandy's career. As great as Sandy was, for Billy to be even that close shows he was an extremely good pitcher. In one Hall of Fame rating system, Billy ranks as the #99 pitcher of all time. The point is that Billy was pretty doggone good, even in 1960, 1961 and 1962 when he went a combined 40-22. Billy Pierce is to Jeff Samardzija as perhaps Madison Bumgarner is to Jeff today. I think Madison will be a better pitcher than Pierce, but he hasn't caught him yet. Pierce and Don Larsen were traded to the Giants prior to the 1962 season for four players. I know of Hodges' book, but I haven't seen it. Thanks for the tip. I'm sure I'll learn a lot from the book, although I myself watched the team play perhaps 30 games at Candlestick that summer, including the final Sunday of the season, a game I have described here in some detail. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3483/looking-ahead-sigh#ixzz4K6bweXr9 |
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Sept 13, 2016 2:47:05 GMT -5
Everyone seems to forget that prior to 62, Kuenn was UNWANTED by Detroit, and was coming off a poor previous season, and he was obviously aging. Rog -- Harvey played both the outfield and third base for the Giants that summer. In 548 plate appearances, he hit .304/.365/.433/.799. Even though his career included a batting title in 1959, his 1962 numbers were better than his career marks. Harvey didn't come to the Giants cheaply, being traded for Johnny Antonelli and Willie Kirkland. In two stints with the Giants -- including 21-7 in their World Series season of 1954, Antonelli fashioned a 3.13 ERA. Kirkland went on to nearly 4000 plate appearances in the majors. As for being unwanted by Detroit, in the winter after his batting championship, he was traded by the Tigers in a unique trade for 1959 home run champion Rocky Colavito. I think it wasn't that the Tigers didn't want Harve, but that they coveted Rocky, who went on to hit 229 homers over the next seven seasons. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3483/looking-ahead-sigh?page=1#ixzz4K7RWucem |
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Sept 13, 2016 2:50:00 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Sept 13, 2016 2:51:47 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Sept 13, 2016 3:06:13 GMT -5
McCovey had yet bloomed, and that left Mays and Cepeda to carry the team. Rog -- McCovey was platooned, but fashioned a .957 OPS when he played. Mays and Cepeda combined for 84 homers and 255 RBI's. Between them, Buster Posey, Brandon Belt, Brandon Crawford and Hunter Pence have 50 homers and 263 RBI's this season. Think Mays and Cepeda might have had something to do with why the 1962 Giants were better than this year's team could have expected to be IMO? The 1962 team outscored their opponents by 188 runs. This year's team has outscored the opponents by 66 runs, or a little more than a third as much. This year has involved injuries, but this year's team just wasn't going to outscore the opposition by 188 runs -- or win as many games. The Giants have added three players of note, yet I think we'd be happy if they won 90, which would mean going 13-6 the rest of the way. The 1962 team had three extra playoff games, and they won 103 games. If this year's team wins out, it won't come close to 103 wins. So this year take the Giants' best SF team ever, suffer through some injuries (although not nearly as many as the Dodgers), add Mike Moore, Eduardo Nunez and Will Smith, and come up with 90 wins that at this point we'd be thrilled with? Those things just don't hang together well. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3483/looking-ahead-sigh?page=1#ixzz4K7WQUPAs |
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Sept 13, 2016 3:10:45 GMT -5
Davenport was a .260 hitter
Rog -- Over his career, that was true, but in 1962 he hit .297 with an .813 OPS.
I didn't mention it earlier, but Alou drove in 98 runs and scored 96. No Giant will approach those figures this season.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Sept 13, 2016 3:12:52 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Sept 13, 2016 3:14:25 GMT -5
In short, I think it's important to judge the 1962 Giants by what they did.
|
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 13, 2016 12:33:24 GMT -5
But we can't forget what was going on before the season started, and how badly players fell in the seasons that followed:
Hiller, Pagan, Davenport: Huge drop offs.
Kuenn dropped more than a little as did Billy O'dell, even though a cursory glance at his numbers "seems" to say otherwise.
After 1963, O'dell mostly was a relief pitcher and a pretty good one at that.
Alou reverted to what he was prior to 1962.
Pierce became useless.
Mays, Cepeda, Marichal and McCovey were huge.
that 62 team thought they were set for years...only they weren't.
Hiller, Pagan and Alou were traded.
Cepeda got hurt and was cast off.
Sanford's arm gave out early in 1964... and it was pretty much down hill until 1965 and 1966.
boly
|
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Sept 13, 2016 12:48:33 GMT -5
But we can't forget what was going on before the season started, and how badly players fell in the seasons that followed: Rog -- Shouldn't we do just that? We're comparing what the 1962 Giants WERE to what were reasonable expectations for what this year's team would become. We're not comparing our expectations for this team to the 1961 Giants or the 1963 Giants. What am I missing here? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3483/looking-ahead-sigh#ixzz4K9vETnAn |
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Sept 13, 2016 12:51:52 GMT -5
Kuenn dropped more than a little as did Billy O'dell, even though a cursory glance at his numbers "seems" to say otherwise. Rog - A cursory glance at Harvey's numbers show that his OPS fell from a nice .799 in 1962 to .732, .682, .593 and .685 in his four remaining seasons. How do those numbers "seem" to say otherwise? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3483/looking-ahead-sigh#ixzz4K9wMjek9 |
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Sept 13, 2016 13:13:38 GMT -5
If the Giants had not employed Mays and Cepeda in 1962, I think we could have expected this year's team to be better than that team. The Giants' top 12 players that season posted a combined 49 WAR. The season isn't over, but this year's top 12 Giants have combined for 33 WAR. The 1962 team simply had more good players than this year's.
To summarize other posts, here are some of the significant advantages the 1962 team enjoyed:
. Mays and Cepeda combined for 84 homers and 255 RBI's.
. The two catchers combined for 35 homers and 100 RBI's.
. Jack Sanford and Billy Pierce combined for 40 wins. Juan Marichal and Billy O'Dell combined for 37 -- and might have reached 40 themselves if not for Marichal's suffering a finger injury in September.
. The 1962 team had eight hitters with an OPS of .799 or above. They had three at .899 or higher.
Those factors might have had something to do with that year's team's winning percentage being 86 points higher than this year's.
|
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 13, 2016 20:05:49 GMT -5
You're missing a lot.
Kuenn was a huge part of that 62 winning season.
he was NOT very good in 61, nor was he very good after 62.
O'dell's numbers looked decent... except he dropped from 19 wins to 14. He simply wasn't anywhere NEAR as effective.
So much so that in 1964, they made him a reliever.
You're so hung up in the numbers you no longer see the picture.
I said Mays and Cepda were awesome.
Our starters were very good.
But other than Mays and Cepeda we had NO stalwarts prior to 1962.
You're missing other things, too.
That 62 team was CONVINCED they were going to be top level for the next 10 years.
They were not.
The fell into a black hole in 63 and 64, recovered in 65 and 66... and then everyone left or got old.
that's NOT what the players and management thought was going to happen.
boly
|
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Sept 14, 2016 11:32:16 GMT -5
I think I see where we differ here, Boly. I'm looking at how the team PERFORMED, while you may be looking at how good the players actually were at that time. I agree with you that quite a few players had career years, or years that were better than they would again have before the end of their careers. Just off the top of my head, Kuenn, O'Dell, Sanford, Pagan, Hiller, Bailey, Pierce, perhaps even Haller. Even Mays had one of the best years of his career and by all rights should have been the MVP over Maury, who may have been a novelty more than anything else. McCovey wasn't yet a proven long-term star, let alone superstar.
I'm looking simply at how the team performed in 1962 -- not how they would have been rated going into the season or how they fared after 1962. Have I hit on something?
On the subsequent years, the Giants didn't fall into a black hole in 1963 and 1964. They won 88 and 90 games those seasons, or about as many as they'll likely win this year. They really didn't fall apart until 1972. They had all winning seasons in the meantime and made the postseason in 1971 before falling into mostly losing seasons in 1972. That lasted until the Roger Craig era, which then led to another fairly short decline before the new ownership era.
|
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 14, 2016 15:01:33 GMT -5
Correct, Rog.
I'm looking at the 'team on paper' before the 1962 year began.
Outside of Mays and Cepeda, and maybe McCovey, they had no proven "bangers."
Davenport was a fan favorite, but he'd done nothing to prove he was special.
The pitching staff was mostly journeymen, with Miller being the one known commodity who had had some success.
But he, too, had been a starter... not a "short" man, today's closer, very long. Or very often.
boly
boly
|
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Sept 14, 2016 19:19:35 GMT -5
Correct, Rog. I'm looking at the 'team on paper' before the 1962 year began. Rog -- I still feel that you overrated this year's squad, but in comparing them to the Giants on paper BEFORE the 1962 season, I can see your point. The 1962 Giants came within a Willie McCovey line drive that was caught of being the World Champion -- and made the postseason with a torrid drive from four back with seven to go, forcing a three-game playoff with the Dodgers. They had a very fine season that came within Bobby Richardson of likely being the best season in SF Giants history. In other words, they've done it. This year's Giants may still do so, but they certainly haven't done it yet. Incidentally, Boagie believes the 1962 team choked. Please tell him they most certainly didn't. You too, Don. You had already been a Giants fan for 30 years or so at that point. As an aside, Vince Scully will end on October second when the Dodgers play the Giants in the final regular season game what might be the most successful baseball announcing career in history. He won't broadcast a day beyond that, even if the dodgers get into the postseason. His reason is very Giants-related. Anyone know it? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3483/looking-ahead-sigh#ixzz4KHKg2xeD |
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Sept 14, 2016 19:20:13 GMT -5
Correct, Rog. I'm looking at the 'team on paper' before the 1962 year began. Rog -- I still feel that you overrated this year's squad, but in comparing them to the Giants on paper BEFORE the 1962 season, I can see your point. The 1962 Giants came within a Willie McCovey line drive that was caught of being the World Champion -- and made the postseason with a torrid drive from four back with seven to go, forcing a three-game playoff with the Dodgers. They had a very fine season that came within Bobby Richardson of likely being the best season in SF Giants history. In other words, they've done it. This year's Giants may still do so, but they certainly haven't done it yet. Incidentally, Boagie believes the 1962 team choked. Please tell him they most certainly didn't. You too, Don. You had already been a Giants fan for 30 years or so at that point. As an aside, Vince Scully will end on October second when the Dodgers play the Giants in the final regular season game what might be the most successful baseball announcing career in history. He won't broadcast a day beyond that, even if the dodgers get into the postseason. His reason is very Giants-related. Anyone know it? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3483/looking-ahead-sigh#ixzz4KHKg2xeD |
|
