sfgdood
Long time member 
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 8, 2016 1:20:13 GMT -5
These last couple of months have been absolutely excruciating to watch unfold. The offense--most notably Belt--has been nonexistent. The starting pitching has been ok, but with so little support, they tend to press later in their outings. And then, when we do manage to scrape up enough runs to have the lead, the bullpen comes in and gives it all away. How in the world can any of this be enjoyable? How is it that none of these "players" feel the slightest bit humiliated by their God-awful performance? We're making mediocre pitchers look unbeatable and terrible teams look like pennant contenders.
Still NONE of the leaders are holding anybody accountable. These same players with the rings that Boagie loves so much are playing like they belong in the Bus Leagues. It's getting to the point where I'd nearly prefer to watch my nephew's Freshman Football games than this pathetic excuse for a big league team.
It's utterly F'ing disgraceful.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 8, 2016 10:17:25 GMT -5
Randy, I hate to say this... but other than your one comment about the leaders holding people accountable, what you said is PRECISELY what I've been ranting about for almost 2 months now!
It IS a disgrace!
Does anyone SERIOUSLY believe Atlanta is better than us?
Yet they have a better 2nd half record.
I want heads to roll, and I've been saying it for a while.
Starting with the Big Oaf, and going right through Casilla.
boly
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Post by Rog on Sept 9, 2016 7:26:43 GMT -5
The offense--most notably Belt--has been nonexistent.
Rog -- My friend asked me which hitters had been most responsible for the Giants' slump at the plate. My answer was "everyone." That's a slight overstatement, and I did mention Angel Pagan as one notable exception.
By the way, I also said that Belt has indeed been horrible during the slump -- except for with RISP, where he has been pretty good during the slump.
When Belt was hitting well this season, we criticized him for not driving in runs (even though he had hit well with RISP and very well with runners on). Now we rightly criticize him for his very bad performance overall during the slump, but don't bother to give him credit for being a good hitter with RISP.
Hey, my friend -- who understands a little baseball himself -- thought Brandon had played far worse this season than he has. In addition to playing very good defense, Brandon has been a well-above-average hitter -- even for a first baseman -- with RISP and especially with runners on base. He's been only average or slightly below for a first baseman when the bases have been empty.
Look this stuff up, Randy, before you are so critical of Brandon. I would go so far as to say that Brandon has had a much better season than you have -- although I give you credit for being much more realistic about the Giants' team than I have seen before.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 9, 2016 12:32:44 GMT -5
But Rog, again, when you say that Brandon has had a much better season... you're only looking at over all numbers.
His 2nd half numbers have been atrocious!
There is no excuse for what he's NOT done.
none.
Not for a 5 year vet.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 9, 2016 12:58:45 GMT -5
AND...even through the prism of full season, Brandon still has trouble maintaining mental focus and is just not physically or mentally tough. He lets small bruises get him out of a game and the lineup, often laying on the ground like he just got shot by 5.56 caliber hunting rifle instead getting a boo boo on his big flat foot.
As for his numbers w/RISP, yes they aren't bad but at his salary, he needs to be putting a LOT more balls over the fence. My expectations for a 1st baseman making what Belt does is 30 HRs and 90+RBI, barring injury.
And "great defenders" don't drop easy pop ups like that one in Chicago.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 9, 2016 14:57:41 GMT -5
You're singing my song, Randy.
But at our park, I'd settle for 20+ HRs, and 80+ RBIs.
At what he's being paid, anything less is ridiculous
boly
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Post by Rog on Sept 9, 2016 18:03:32 GMT -5
And "great defenders" don't drop easy pop ups like that one in Chicago. Rog -- No one said Brandon is a great defender. What we said is what he is -- one of the top five or so at first base. But your statement that great defenders don't drop easy pop ups like the one Belt dropped in Chicago is false. Willie Mays once dropped a routine fly ball -- and then looked at his glove as though it had let him down. Even the very best miss the routine ones once in a while. You'd know that if you got your head out of your stats so you could understand the game. Oh wait. That's someone else! Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3481/disgrace#ixzz4JnorQf9w |
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Post by Rog on Sept 9, 2016 18:10:35 GMT -5
But Rog, again, when you say that Brandon has had a much better season... you're only looking at over all numbers. His 2nd half numbers have been atrocious! Rog -- Except for RISP and perhaps runners on, you are absolutely correct. I know almost without a doubt that with the bases empty, Brandon has been atrocious this half. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3481/disgrace#ixzz4JnpnuRNT |
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Post by Rog on Sept 9, 2016 18:28:45 GMT -5
But at our park, I'd settle for 20+ HRs, and 80+ RBIs. At what he's being paid, anything less is ridiculous Rog -- That's just not true. One WAR these days cost about $7 million on the free agent market. Brandon is being paid 6/$79. The first two years are arbitration years, so let's say it is the equivalent of 5 free agent years at $79 million. At $7 million per WAR, Brandon will need to achieve 12 WAR over the next six years to "earn" his money. That's two WAR per season. This is Brandon's sixth season in the majors. Even with being sent down for part of his rookie season, even with all his injuries, and even though this season isn't yet over, Brandon stands at 13 WAR over his career -- even though some here aren't at all happy with his level of play. This year he is at 3.6 WAR thus far. Let's say (hope) he gets to 4 WAR by the end of the season (He's on pace for 4.2 WAR.) That means he needs only 8 WAR over the next five seasons to "earn" his contract. That's 1.6 WAR per season, or clearly less than half what he's ALREADY achieved this year. If I were to guess, I would guess Brandon would achieve at least 50% more WAR than he needs to "earn" his pact. This talk about Brandon's not being worth the money he signed for is absurd. I think it stems from greatly underestimating the cost of wins on the open market. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3481/disgrace#ixzz4JntnJG52 |
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 9, 2016 20:01:46 GMT -5
Roger, I simply don't agree.
I honestly would not have given him that kind of money.
He lacks the consistency to deserve what they pay him.
boly
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Post by Rog on Sept 10, 2016 1:53:24 GMT -5
Roger, I simply don't agree. I honestly would not have given him that kind of money. He lacks the consistency to deserve what they pay him. Rog -- Let's just put it this way: The Giants would have a hard time picking up someone on the free agent market who is as good as Brandon at the same money. Look at all the first basemen in the majors, and it's tough not to put Brandon in the top 10 or 12. And good first basemen make BIG money. Maybe I should ask the question as to which player coming on the free agent market the Giants could pick up for the same as the remaining 5/$72.8? I'm not sure we can come up with one. Now, if the Giants could pick up for Brandon a good player who is pre-arbitration, that might be a different story. But who would that player be? Brandon is likely a top five defensive first baseman and a top 10 or 12 offensive initial sacker. I'd like to see us come up with more than that we would reasonably put in front of him. Teams with a few stars and average to above-average players at the other key spots are usually pretty good. Brandon is at least above-average at first base, and good would likely be the better adjective. Put Bumgarner and Posey with Brandon Belt's at the other key positions, and the Giants would have a good team. Put multiples of him with Bumgarner, Posey, Crawford and Cueto, and they'd have a very good team. I really don't get the idea that Brandon is lousy. No one has yet come up with a set of reasons -- or even a single reason -- that shows he's even below average. If we can't come up with several verifiable reasons why he's below average, he likely isn't. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3481/disgrace#ixzz4JpgSmtli |
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 10, 2016 10:28:37 GMT -5
Roger, again, I NEVER said at the same money.
Never.
I never said he was lousy.
I SAID I can't live with his inconsistencies any longer
With Casilla, Pagan and Lopez and Belt off the books, the MONEY WOULD BE THERE.
all I know is that if I'm GM, I see that I cannot live with his inconsistencies any longer.
You'll argue numbers, I'll argue his 2nd half this year, and his 5 previous UNDER ACHIEVING seasons.
Again, if I'm GM, when this season is over, he's played his last game as a Giant.
His last.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 10, 2016 10:56:59 GMT -5
Look at all the first basemen in the majors, and it's tough not to put Brandon in the top 10 or 12.
Dood - so you're saying he's got mediocre numbers. Ok, we knew that. PLUS he has no toughness at all, no desire to get better and is prone to all manner of mental lapses during games. Remind me again why we want this oaf
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a disgrace
Sept 11, 2016 11:19:55 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Islandboagie on Sept 11, 2016 11:19:55 GMT -5
I criticized Belt when it was unpopular to do so. I used to rip him on his inconsistency throughout the entire season. He would start off well, then he would have one bad at bat and it would send him spiraling down into a slump of epic proportions.
Fact is, he's contributed to more Giants wins this season than ever before. He already has more RBIs, more walks, and is on pace to finish the season besting a lot of his numbers.
Are we only picking on him because of his contract?
It's not Belt's fault how much the Giants decided to pay him. And quite honestly, I don't think some of you fully understand the the pay scale of major league ball players anymore. B players are now getting big contracts. I know it seems like it's too much, but this inflated pay scale was predicted by Rog and I a few years ago. It's time for the rest of you to acknowledge it, and accept it.
It might surprise you, but the Giants don't blindly throw money at players. They do a lot of in depth research to figure out the true value of these players, and they pay them accordingly.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 11, 2016 12:33:57 GMT -5
Boagie says---Are we only picking on him because of his contract?
***boly says***
That's not my issue, boagie, that's Randy's.
My issue was, is and continues to be what you wrote in your post;"He would start off well, then he would have one bad at bat and it would send him spiraling down into a slump of epic proportions."
I am NO LONGER willing to put up with the holes in his game. Those inexplicable, EPIC SLUMPS.
No longer.
These epic slumps are caused by one thing, the one thing I've pointed out dozens of times; That goofy, unorthodox bat angel through the hitting zone.
Krukow has explained what happens; He drops that back shoulder and can't get on top of the ball.
There are many reasons for our EPIC FALL in the second half, but three players are the MAIN REASONS for this crash and burn.
1-Belt. No if ands or buts about this one.
He's number 1 and the distance between his failures in the 2nd half and #2 on the list is HUGE! That is simply NOT acceptable and any GM worth his salt would do something about it.
2-Buster Posey. We can get the numbers he's put up this year by almost any catcher in the game.
12 HRs and 67 RBIs? For a freaking 3/4 hole hitter?
Well shut my mouth, butter my fanny stuff it with jam, cover it with powdered sugar and call me a Jelly doughnut, but that is simply unacceptable.
Period!
I've been complaining about Buster for 3 years now, but everyone continues to sing his praises. As much as he's improved behind the plate, sorry, Don, I disagree with you here, IMHO, that's equally how far he's fallen AT the plate.
3-Casilla-This guy fell so far, so fast this year that it's almost incomprehensible.
Now I'm not absolving the rest of the bullpen, I mean, for crying out loud they've collectively BLOWN 26 saves!
That's ASININE!
That kind of crap is ridiculous for a team who believes they are contenders!
I could extend the list, but those are MY top three going away.
boly
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Post by Rog on Sept 12, 2016 22:52:16 GMT -5
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Post by Rog on Sept 12, 2016 22:55:02 GMT -5
By the way, if we can't think of a better player than Brandon the Giants could get for the same money, he likely isn't being overpaid. If he's truly being overpaid, we should be able to get someone better for the same or someone as good for less. Otherwise, by definition, he's not being overpaid.
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Post by Rog on Sept 12, 2016 22:58:11 GMT -5
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Post by Rog on Sept 12, 2016 23:04:37 GMT -5
Buster Posey. We can get the numbers he's put up this year by almost any catcher in the game. 12 HRs and 67 RBIs? For a freaking 3/4 hole hitter? Rog -- Perhaps we should look at the facts here. There are indeed 10 catchers with as many homers as Buster. Three are four with as many RBI's. 4 with as high a batting average. 3 with as high a slugging percentage. 2 with as high an OPS. None who have scored as many runs. None who have as high an OBP. In light of these facts, does this sentence now sound true? " We can get the numbers he's put up this year by almost any catcher in the game." Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3481/disgrace?page=1#ixzz4K6ZgxMZs |
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Post by Rog on Sept 12, 2016 23:06:35 GMT -5
I think I hit the nail on the head, in a bit of a sweeping way, when he asked whom I blamed for the Giants' second-half decline, and I replied, "Everyone." Not quite everyone, by any means. But you get the idea. Particularly among the hitters.
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