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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 3, 2016 11:26:47 GMT -5
Yes, I'm going to point fingers.
But I'm going to point "good" fingers as well as "bad" fingers.
No reference to Bad Finger, the musical group of the 70's
The Good Finger:
1-Span-Continued to get better as the season progressed
2-Crawford-Man! Has this kid grown and improved!
3-Bumgarner-Hasn't been the Madison we have seen in the past, but one simply cannot ignore his efforts.
4-Pence-He is NOT fully healthy, but this guy comes to PLAY
5-Pagan-Still has NO CLUE of how to hit when he's ahead in the count, but I'll give him his due; he's come up big
6-Panik-He comes to play every day.
There are others, but those are my top guys.
The BAD Finger
1-15 Brandon Belt- Had he played at nearly 3/4 of his norm, we'd be in a much better place. But he hasn't, and his failure tops my list
16-Posey-It's hard not to love Buster, but the facts are the facts 12 HRs and 60ish RBIs in 432 at bats. All this from a 3/4 hole hitter.
Buster may be hurt, he may not be himself.
But let's call it what it is; an unacceptable season from the guy who's supposed to be our prime run producer.
Let's compare
Panik, a 2 hole guy... has 10 HRs and 53 RBIS in 390 at bats. And he almost never hits in an RBI slot.
Pagan, again, not an RBI guy... 9 HRs and 45 RBIs.
Crawford 12 HRs, 77 RBIs from a guy who hit DOWN in the lineup most of the year!
17-Matt Cain- Couldn't stay healthy, and even when he was, couldn't command his pitches
18-Johnny Cueto-I don't get this guy. I really don't. He'll cruise along DOMINATING a game... and then, for no reason, can't throw strikes! Falling behind 3-1, 3-0, 3-2... and getting hit.
When we needed him, he often disappeared.
19-Casilla-How big do all of those blown saves look now?
20-Samardizja-It took you all freaking year to figure out you needed a mechanical change? Why in the world did you think your career was on hold PRIOR to this season? I admire you finally making the adjustments... but dude! You're a professional! I expect one hell of a lot better and smarter from professionals!
21-Nunez-We traded for an All Star. What we've gotten, your outstanding defense aside, is a utility player
22-Smith-Seriously? We traded Susac and the pitcher for YOU? Talking about taking it up the shorts in that deal!
Those are my fingers.
Those players have earned the pointing they've received.
This season rests squarely on the backs of those failures.
When changes are made in the off season, and you are no longer a Giant, or a starter, or a key player, I don't want to hear you whining. You have only yourself to blame.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member 
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 4, 2016 14:22:48 GMT -5
it baffles me how you get pissed off at Cueto when his overall outings are just fine
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 4, 2016 20:33:39 GMT -5
I was a pitcher for about a million years, Randy.
I am NOT tolerant of ANY pitcher, especially of a guy with Cueto's command who suddenly, inexplicable, 5,6, 7, 8 times, gets to the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th inning and suddenly can't throw strikes and continually FALLS behind in the count 3-0, 3-1, to hitters.
That is unacceptable to me for a pitcher of Cueto's status.
Kershaw doesn't do it.
Lackey doesn't do it.
Neither do ANY of the top command/starters in the NL.
Only Cueto.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 4, 2016 20:45:58 GMT -5
it's irrational when the overall result is giving our team a chance to win with just a little offense and a non-flammable bullpen. It's Cueto's teammates that have failed him...not the other way around.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 5, 2016 9:52:25 GMT -5
And I don't disagree with your assessment that his team mates have let him down, Randy.
I'm simply talking about those now, 7 or 8 instances when, for no reason at all, he can't find the strike zone.
Hey, believe me, I've pitched at a high enough level, and pitched long enough to know that there ARE innings when the strike zone becomes elusive at times.
But honestly, Randy, in all my years around the game, I've never, EVER seen a top of the rotation guy have THIS many, Latka Gravis, Yaktahbey, brain farts.
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 5, 2016 12:04:00 GMT -5
Boly- I'm simply talking about those now, 7 or 8 instances when, for no reason at all, he can't find the strike zone.
Boagie- Most major league pitchers are going to have at least 7 or 8 bouts of wildness throughout a full season. What you say is undeniably true, but do you honestly see Cueto as a negative for the season?
What baffles me is the fact that you put Pence as a positive when he hasn't been able to stay healthy for two seasons now. If any finger pointing should be done, it should be targeted towards his conditioning.
Let me ask you this...if you could go back and change 5 things that have happened over the last 2 seasons, what would they be and why?
As an example, would you have preferred Greinke and Vogelsong over Cueto and Samardzija?
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Post by Rog on Sept 5, 2016 15:19:41 GMT -5
1-15 Brandon Belt- Had he played at nearly 3/4 of his norm, we'd be in a much better place. But he hasn't, and his failure tops my list Rog -- Yes, the Giants' numbers one through 15 failure has merely hit for a career-high OPS and is on pace to easily reach a career high in RBI's -- all while playing very good defense. I'm not saying Brandon hasn't been horrible since the All-Star break. What I'm saying is that you're off base 15 times here. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3473/finger-pointing#ixzz4JPldEj5n |
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Post by Rog on Sept 5, 2016 15:25:50 GMT -5
Johnny Cueto-I don't get this guy. I really don't. He'll cruise along DOMINATING a game... and then, for no reason, can't throw strikes! Falling behind 3-1, 3-0, 3-2... and getting hit. When we needed him, he often disappeared. Rog -- Johnny Cueto is 14-5 with a 2.92 ERA. He leads the league with four complete games. The Giants are 19-9 in his 28 starts. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3473/finger-pointing#ixzz4JPmbg96R |
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 6, 2016 14:53:31 GMT -5
I'm sorry, Rog, but you're looking at the whole pie, and the whole pie is made up of pieces.
I see the pieces, you don't.
You look at the numbers and say, 'he's been good.'
I look at the pieces of the pie and I say, yeah, these pieces tasted good, but those pieces had dead bugs in them, and they weren't very good.
You look at the whole pie and all seems well.
It's not.
2.92 is a good ERA, but IF he had maintained some control of the strike zone in 8 or 9 of those starts, his ERA is what it should be: Under 2.50.
No excuse for losing the strike zone like he does.
none.
boly
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Post by Rog on Sept 7, 2016 2:35:20 GMT -5
I'm sorry, Rog, but you're looking at the whole pie, and the whole pie is made up of pieces. I see the pieces, you don't. You look at the numbers and say, 'he's been good.' I look at the pieces of the pie and I say, yeah, these pieces tasted good, but those pieces had dead bugs in them, and they weren't very good. Rog -- Johnny's outings haven't been perfect, but they certainly haven't had dead bugs in them. We certainly wouldn't eat in a restaurant whose pie has dead bugs in them, but eating at Johnny's restaurant should be one of our first choices. I'm going 4.5 stars. Anything less would bug me. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3473/finger-pointing#ixzz4JYMHe8zF |
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Post by Rog on Sept 7, 2016 2:38:27 GMT -5
2.92 is a good ERA, but IF he had maintained some control of the strike zone in 8 or 9 of those starts, his ERA is what it should be: Under 2.50. Rog -- You say Sandy Koufax was the best pitcher you've ever seen, and his ERA wasn't under 2.50. The only starting pitcher I've ever seen with an ERA under 2.50 is Clayton Kershaw. And sadly for the Giants, there's only one of him. For such a nice guy, you're a nearly impossible critic. If we can't be happy with a starting pitcher with a 2.92 ERA, there is something wrong. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3473/finger-pointing#ixzz4JYN1DbSx |
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Post by Rog on Sept 7, 2016 2:43:13 GMT -5
I see the pieces, you don't.
Rog -- You keep saying this, but I simply tend to give a higher priority to the overall than you seem to. It isn't that I don't see the pieces; it's that I don't give them as much credence compared to the overall picture as you do. When I evaluate a player, I certainly look at all the pieces I can find, which is usually at least as many as most. But I base my judgment on the overall contribution of the player, focusing on the process, since that is what the player can control.
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Post by Rog on Sept 7, 2016 2:52:33 GMT -5
No excuse for losing the strike zone like he does. none. Rog -- Yet Johnny has much better control than Sandy Koufax had. And you say Sandy is the best pitcher you have ever seen. I don't see the consistency here. Just to introduce some facts, Sandy walked 3.2 batters per nine innings pitched, in an era when batters were more aggressive and didn't think nearly as much about drawing walks. Johnny has walked 2.5. And you're questioning him in a season in which he has walked a career-low 1.8. Sandy had only one season in his 12-year career that was that low -- walking just 1.7 in 1963. I'm not trying to say Johnny is as good a pitcher as Sandy was. I'm merely trying to point out what I see as inconsistencies. Incidentally, when Sandy set his career low of 1.7 strikeouts per nine in 1963, the league average was 2.8. Johnny's 1.8 has come in a 3.2 average environment. And yet you're criticizing him. I understand your frustration with a pitcher whose impeccable control is sometimes inexplicably followed by bouts of wildness. But the fact is that overall, Johnny has some of the best control around. I'm looking at the same pieces you're seeing, but those pieces combine into a darn good result. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3473/finger-pointing#ixzz4JYP0nRf9 |
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Post by Rog on Sept 7, 2016 3:05:53 GMT -5
Johnny Cueto and Madison Bumgarner have gone to 3-0 and 3-1 counts almost equally this season. Johnny has faced 769 batters and has gone 3-0 21 times and 3-1 on 62 occasions. Madison has faced 780 batters and has gone 3-0 24 times and 3-1 60 times.
Clayton Kershaw has done better, but then he's one of the best pitchers ever (so far). Clayton has faced 441 batters and has gone 3-0 just 10 times and 3-1 29 times.
John Lackey, though, has been "lacking" in this category -- at least compared to Cueto and Bumgarner. Lackey has faced only 645 batters, yet has gone to both 3-0 (24 times) and 3-1 (69 times) more than either Cueto or Bumgarner.
Again, I understand your frustration, Boly. I can't think of a pitcher who has cruised as much as Johnny only to run into later trouble. But the bottom line is that his overall control has been quite good.
Be frustrated, but give the guy the credit he deserves. Any idea where the Giants would be without Johnny? It might be close to over.
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