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Post by Rog on Dec 15, 2015 2:44:18 GMT -5
Who is the starting pitcher who has the best ERA in the majors over the past five seasons except for the nonpareil? That would be Johnny Cueto.
Who has the 2nd-most innings pitched the past two seasons including the postseason? I believe that would be Johnny Cueto, whose 480.2 IP is behind only Madison Bumgarner's 488.1 as far as I know.
Which rotation has the most innings pitched by its top three starters the past two seasons (including the postseason)? I believe that would be Bumgarner (488.1), Cueto (480.2) and Jeff Samardzija (433.2). That's over 1400 innings combined. I don't see the bullpen as being overworked this season. That could lead to one fewer reliever or simply a better-rested bullpen.
How many starting pitchers are there who could make an argument that they should be #1, bumping Bumgarner down to #2? Very, very few -- but Cueto could make an argument for being one of them (not that anyone dreams it would happen).
Cueto might be the most entertaining pitcher to watch, and Samardzija would be high on the list. In the unlikely event that Tim Lincecum returned, the Giants would have three of the most entertaining starters around.
Johnny hasn't won a Cy Young Award, but he has finished 2nd and 4th in the past four seasons. Those both happened, by the way, in 2012 and 2014 -- the last two even-numbered seasons.
He's no Paul Bunyan Bumgarner, but Cueto can handle himself with the bat. He hit .162 last season and led all pitchers in baseball with 17 sacrifice hits in 2012.
If one took the highest innings pitch in a single season by each of the five projected starters for the Giants, even not including the postseason, it would add up to 1128. In 2012 the quintet combined for 1038 frames. Cueto's 243.2 innings in 2014 is the high-watermark among the group.
Cueto's career ERA in fiendishly hitter-friendly Great American Ballpark in Cincinnati is 2.91. His career mark at AT&T is 1.69. Against the other teams in the NL West, his ERA is 2.79 against the Dodgers, 2.54 against the Diamondbacks, 3.91 against the Padres and 2.84 against the Rockies.
The past four seasons Cueto's walk rates have been only 2.0, 2.7, 2.4 and 2.0. His career WHIP is 1.18, and his career ERA is 3.30 (2.71 I believe over the past five seasons).
Cueto won 20 games (20-9) in 2014 and 19 in 2012 (19-9).
In 2014 he allowed just 6.2 H/9, the 59th-best mark in major league history. His 0.96 WHIP that season ranks #112 all time. His 8.0 H/9 in his career ranks #133. His 1.18 WHIP is 111th all time. Coincidentally, Jake Peavy is tied for 112th and Matt Cain sits at #119.
Cueto throws a mile per hour faster the 3rd time through the lineup than the 2nd, and a mph faster the 2nd time through than his 1st.
IIRC his $130 million contract is tied for 37th -highest ever.
The Giants signed Cueto and Samardzija together for $220 million, just $14 million more than the $206 million paid to Zack Greinke alone. Rather have the 32-year-old Greinke or BOTH the 30-year-old Cueto and Samardzija?
Is Cueto at 6/$130 a better deal than Price at 7/$217 or Greinke at 6/$206? Is Cueto at 6/$130 a better deal than Zimmermann at 6/$120? Would you rather the Giants have Cueto or Jon Lester?
Does any team have a better 1/2 punch than Bumgarner and Cueto?
As somewhere between the Giants' #3 and #5 starter, how does Jake Peavy at 2/$24 look now?
The Giants are paying over $60 million per season to Cueto, Samardzija and Cain -- none of whom is even #1. Is there any team in baseball paying more than that to three pitchers who aren't their #1 starter? More than that to ANY three starters?
Throw in Bumgarner and Peavy, and the Giants are paying somewhere north of $85 million per season for their rotation. Last season there were six teams with TOTAL payrolls at, around or under that figure.
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Post by Rog on Dec 15, 2015 3:45:55 GMT -5
There are three pitchers who have thrown two or more games in the postseason of 8 or more innings while allowing two or fewer hits. Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemens and ... Johnny Cueto.
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Post by Islandboagie on Dec 15, 2015 3:56:37 GMT -5
3 lucky pitchers.
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 15, 2015 9:11:22 GMT -5
Sports Nation described the 2016 Giants rotation as "ridiculous!" When Cueto signed yesterday, he didn't say a word, just tweeted a picture of Juan Marichal. Love the guy already! Could he get hurt, could Samardzija show his bad year last year wasn't a fluke? Of course, but Zack Greinke could get hit by a bus too, why even think like that? On paper, the Giants just reclaimed the NL west from the DBacks, which is exactly what I cautioned about after the Miller trade. And unfortunately, you know the Dodgers will respond, so don't go buying those playoffs tickets yet. I'm excited though, and looking forward to this season.
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 15, 2015 12:22:30 GMT -5
I'm with Mark on ALL of his points!
We DID just reclaim the West from the Diamond Backs.
And suddenly, as I prayed and hoped I would be, am excited about the season!
Whew!
I'm not sure how I would have tolerated another season where we really didn't have a shot.
I know my wife is excited, too, because NOW she won't have to listen to me screaming (well, not really screaming, but close) at the TV during Giant games!
boly
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 15, 2015 16:09:56 GMT -5
I know it means nothing, but Vegas just made the Giants co-favorites with the Cubs to win the World Series!
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Post by Rog on Dec 15, 2015 22:24:22 GMT -5
The signing I didn't like was Jeff Samardzija's. But the White Sox pitching coach said he mishandled Samardzija, and it is also believed he was tipping his pitches last season. It sounds as if there is reason for hope with Jeff.
I don't think the Giants are as good as the Cubs, but there are so many variables that I think the Giants are in a good position now, one that probably has them beginning the season with a better team than any the previous three World Champions began the season with -- especially if the Giants add a center fielder.
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 16, 2015 12:30:38 GMT -5
Two of the variables in OUR favor, and I say BIG TIME in our favor, is the clubhouse atmosphere; the way newcomers are welcomed IMMEDIATELY into the family. EVERY player joining this team has said that from rookies, to vets.
Secondly, the team chemistry. There is no way to measure heart and 'wanna', and we have that in spades.
More than any other Giant team I've ever seen.
in fact, more than ANY TEAM I've ever seen.
boly
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Post by Rog on Dec 16, 2015 20:52:49 GMT -5
Two of the variables in OUR favor, and I say BIG TIME in our favor, is the clubhouse atmosphere; the way newcomers are welcomed IMMEDIATELY into the family. EVERY player joining this team has said that from rookies, to vets. Secondly, the team chemistry. There is no way to measure heart and 'wanna', and we have that in spades. More than any other Giant team I've ever seen. in fact, more than ANY TEAM I've ever seen. Rog -- With Joe Maddon as their manager, the Cubs have those things as well. To the same degree as the Giants? Don't know, but as you say, the Giants have a lot of it. Coincidentally with the Golden State Warriors becoming champions for only the second time in the Bay Area history and winning 24 (the number of both Willie Mays and Rick Barry) games in a row to start the season, the first Bay Area Warriors team to the win the championship in 1974-75 had spectacular chemistry as well. In fact, it was that team that prompted me to begin studying chemistry. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3169/cueto-stuff#ixzz3uXSayQfR |
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Post by Islandboagie on Dec 16, 2015 23:58:07 GMT -5
Secondly, the team chemistry. There is no way to measure heart and 'wanna', and we have that in spades.
More than any other Giant team I've ever seen.
in fact, more than ANY TEAM I've ever seen.
Rog -- With Joe Maddon as their manager, the Cubs have those things as well.
Boagie- Joe Maddon is a good manager, I'm just not so sure if he creates a clubhouse of good chemistry. After all, Upton and Longoria were at each others throats. The Rays were successful due to young talented players, and they only got so far in the post season in the few times they did make it there.
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 17, 2015 12:19:23 GMT -5
Rog -- With Joe Maddon as their manager, the Cubs have those things as well.
Boagie- Joe Maddon is a good manager, I'm just not so sure if he creates a clubhouse of good chemistry. After all, Upton and Longoria were at each others throats. The Rays were successful due to young talented players, and they only got so far in the post season in the few times they did make it there.
****boly says***
Bingo, boagie! Bingo!
Personally, I can't stand Joe Maddon. But there is no questioning his ability as a manager.
So Rog, I have to disagree vehemently with you.
There has never been ANY evidence that Joe has created that kind of an atmosphere.
In fact, I'm not sure that any manager can. And that includes Bochy.
The manager sets the tone, for sure, BUT, a team has to have the right kind of players who are LEADERS, both vocal and subtle, both on the field before the game, and on the field DURING the game.
Pence would be a vocal example, as well as a subtle example in that he hustles his fanny off EACH AND EVERY PLAY OF EACH AND EVERY DAY.
That becomes contagious, especially to the young players who follow his example.
Posey would be another subtle example. The way he goes about his pre game and post game both routine and attitude sets a tone.
The way he deals with younger players sets a tone. A tone of confidence, and strength.
Duffy commented on it, and so did Panik.
Bumgarner would be another example, but he is a different bird all together. My kind of bird!
Madison is a throw back, a guy who would have fit perfectly in the pre-1970's baseball era.
He has an intense, almost volatile side to him that I just LOVE!
He sets an example when he's on the mound; he takes no crap from no one.
He gives quarter to no one.
He's intimidated by NO ONE.
That's the kind of guy players WANT pitching for them. A guy you KNOW has your back.
Peavy is of his ilk, too.
There are others on the club, but those are the first ones that come to mind.
Bottom line to me is:
1-Team chemistry starts with GM; the type of CHARACTER he acquires to play on his team,
2-IS INFLUENCED by the manager,
and is 3-SOLIDIFIED IN PLACE by the team leaders.
Show me a Maddon team that has all of those, because I can't find one.
boly
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Post by Rog on Dec 17, 2015 16:43:52 GMT -5
From ESPN:
Maddon is smart and dugout savvy. He understands and uses the new metrics -- he was behind the rise in defensive shifts -- but also understands the nuances and human aspects of the game that negate such data. He also is extremely creative, building clubhouse chemistry and teamwork through such fun ideas as themed road trips in which players have worn Woodstock psychedelic T-shirts and jeans, grunge flannel and tuxedos.
Now that he's managing the Cubs, Maddon might want to have his players take a train for their first trip to St. Louis while wearing 1908-style straw boaters and dark suits with high stiff collars. Or perhaps have them wear overalls and John Deere caps while bringing along goats on a leash.
Madden is a fun, engaging communicator who will make the Cubs a winning team.
From Comcast Sports Net
Yet the Cubs know what they feel and they insist chemistry does bleed out onto the diamond.
"One hundred percent," reliever Jason Motte said.
"I've always believed that clubhouse chemistry can be created," manager Joe Maddon said. "There's a lot of people that would disagree with that. And I think people that disagree with that have never really attempted to do it. You mock what you don't understand.
"Of course, winning always breeds that kind of stuff. But if you've not won, what do you do?"
For the first time under Theo Epstein's front office, the Cubs are actually winning: They're five games over .500 and sitting atop the National League wild-card standings in mid-May.
[MORE CUBS: Despite loss, Cubs leaving Wrigley with a great feeling]
The culture inside the clubhouse has changed. It's palpable the second you step into the cramped home locker room at Wrigley Field. There's energy, confidence and a sense of a team on the rise, even if they're still learning how to win consistently.
Maddon has had a huge impact. But he's also so complimentary of veterans like David Ross and Jon Lester, to the point where the star manager is praising them on a near-daily basis.
"How do you create chemistry?" Maddon asked. "You bring in David Ross, [Miguel] Montero, Jon Lester, [Chris] Denorfia, these kind of guys.
"Those are kind of like the chemistry majors, man. They know what they're doing and they set a different tone. I'm telling you, the bench during the game when Monty and Rossy are not playing - wow. Those other guys better be heads up."
More from Comcast on Maddon's efforts to promote chemistry:
“All this stuff is great,” Lester said. “It’s not tacky. It’s not in your face. It’s nothing that goes overboard with anything. It’s all in good fun. (It’s) enjoying playing baseball and winning baseball games.”
From MLB.com:
"I'm a chemist when it comes to baseball," quipped Maddon. "I was really awful at it in high school. Yes, it is important in baseball. A lot of people say, 'If you win, chemistry comes.' But with the Rays as an example, we had never won before, so we had to create this other vibe that happened within before it could occur on the field."
Maddon agrees it's difficult to change clubhouse chemistry.
"It's very difficult, because it takes a lot of communication," he said. "It's paying attention to the day, all about positive energy to be built. It takes a lot of internal energy, and some people aren't willing to put that out there.
"I'll argue against the group that says winning will beget chemistry. If you pay attention to individuals conversationally on a daily basis, that's what matters."
Joe Maddon may be the best manager in baseball today. He "gets" sabermetrics, and he "gets" team chemistry.
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 18, 2015 10:36:21 GMT -5
"One Hundred percent!" Said Jason Motte, who then signed with the Rockies a couple of weeks after the season ended! Not disputing the Maddon points, but I think it's funny that the player who made that comment got out of there pretty fast after the season ended.
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 18, 2015 14:48:41 GMT -5
Rog, I'm not disputing the comments, I just haven't SEEN visual proof that Maddon is that good of a chemistry guy.
And even if he is, my point is still the same:
We have a better clubhouse, and better chemistry.
Like I said, "slight" edge, Giants.
boly
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Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2015 8:07:39 GMT -5
I don't doubt that the Giants have the best chemistry in baseball. The study I cited here two seasons ago gave them the nod.
But there is just no way of knowing. My sense is that both have very good chemistry and that the advantage isn't huge.
Here is the thing about the Cubs. They still have a fair amount of material to trade. The might still build on what is an excellent team already.
I expect the Giants to add another outfielder, almost certainly a guy who can play center field. They really need to set their team as much as they can now. They will have money to spend again next winter, but the market will be quite thin. If the Giants can add a good center fielder now, the should have Mac Williamson ready for 2017. If necessary, the Giants should find Gregor Blanco available at a halfway reasonable figure to platoon with him.
The incredible potential for free agent availability comes three years from now. I think the Giants would do well to save up a bunch of money for that winter. In addition to what they can save next winter, Matt Cain can come off the books two years from now. Not that this is necessarily a good thing, but Hunter Pence comes off the books then too.
Both Santiago Casilla and Sergio Romo come off a year from now, so the opportunity for one or more of the young relievers to emerge is fertile.
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Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2015 8:23:36 GMT -5
I suspect Jason Motte jumped when he could get a 2/$10 contract. He was a very good reliever before sitting out 2013 due to injury. Since returning, he has struggled, although he did compile an impressive 8 wins in 2015.
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 19, 2015 11:42:40 GMT -5
Rog, I sure hope you're right about us making a move for a CF.
But honestly I just can't see it.
From everything I've ever read or heard, Bochy LOVES Pagan.
Loves him!
I love what he did for us. At that time he WAS the spark plug, and his defense was above average.
But these last 2 years... I don't care what his problem was, he's been a walking "owie."
Crimenee! Even Strat-O-Matic rated him as a "4" CF... which is just about as bad as you can get.
The only players ranked as a defensive "5" were players who barley played that position, or someone like the Big Awful himself; Dr. Strangeglove, Dick Stuart.
Now Strat certainly ISN'T the Fielding Bible, but their rankings of the defensive players over the years has been, IMHO, right on the mark 90%+ of the time.
I see us being stuck with him until around the trade deadline when he has proven, once again, he can't get the job done, when we make a move.
I DO like your idea of Parra platooning with Williamson, though.
But then again, though he's played SOME CF, he really isn't a CF.
And our problem still remains; we DON'T HAVE a lead off hitter since we foolishly let Aoki walk
boly
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Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2015 15:09:40 GMT -5
Rog, I sure hope you're right about us making a move for a CF. But honestly I just can't see it. From everything I've ever read or heard, Bochy LOVES Pagan. Loves him! Rog -- I suspect that even Bruce can see that Angel's range is diminishing, and he certainly can see that if the Giants were to re-sign him during the next year, he would be or would be approaching 35 years of age, which also usually signals a loss of range. Bruce can also see that Angel has missed 192 games over the past three seasons, including all of the 2014 postseason. Right now the Giants have only Hunter Pence as an experienced signed after the 2016 season. 32-year-old (as of Christmas Eve) Gregor Blanco is likely the best in-house candidate for center field beyond this year, but if the Giants re-sign him, they would like it to be as a fourth outfielder. To me the question is one of availability. The Giants have already missed out on two possible candidates in Cameron Maybin and Aaron Hicks. But why would they not have exercised the inexpensive option of Nori Aoki if they weren't gunning for a center fielder? It seemingly would have made no sense to do so. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3169/cueto-stuff#ixzz3unaoXHIj |
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Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2015 15:13:10 GMT -5
Now Strat certainly ISN'T the Fielding Bible, but their rankings of the defensive players over the years has been, IMHO, right on the mark 90%+ of the time. Rog -- One defensive metric -- I don't know which -- ranked Angel as the worst center fielder in the bigs. My guess is that The Fielding Bible doesn't hold him in anything approaching high regard. And the Giants likely don't either, although they may not want to risk upsetting team chemistry unless the move they can make is a strong one. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3169/cueto-stuff?page=1#ixzz3uncmjnVa |
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