We're all disappointed

[Rog]

We're all disappointed, but what would we do now?  Let's presume the Giants have $25 million in annual salary to spend.  Would we do things differently if it's $30 million?

I personally am intrigued by Maeda, but if a team waits for him and loses out, it may be too late to go with a solid Plan B.  Perhaps the same thing with Chen, since he is a Scott Boras client.

[rxmeister]

Giants can still sign two more big free agents with that money by back loading contracts. I go Maeda and Cespedes. We'll probably get Bartolo Colon and Dexter Fowler though

[Rog]

Giants can still sign two more big free agents with that money by back loading contracts. I go Maeda and Cespedes. We'll probably get Bartolo Colon and Dexter Fowler though


Rog -- It won't be Bartolo Colon and Dexter Fowler.

I'm like you in that I like Maeda. I believe his posting process begins today. Does that mean he'll be signing later than other alternatives?

The Giants are likely working multiple alternatives. Some are probably moves they would make if they came to proper fruition, while others would be backup plans. Some may be sort of in between.

I would presume once the Giants have a deal they like, they would put a very short shelf life on other offers they had made, then go ahead with the original deal if nothing else developed quickly. If they like the original deal enough, they might simply jump on it without much back-checking.

Like virtually everyone else here, I'm underwhelmed by the Jeff Samardzija signing. I'd like to be whelmed a lot more. And there's still time for whelming.

Two things I believe the complainers are forgetting:

First, it's not over till it's over, and it ain't over. If it's over, I'm with the complainers.

Second, the Giants have been highly successful in recent years despite fielding teams that weren't the best on paper -- or even during the regular season. For us to complain strongly, we're saying something like, "Giants, you don't know what you're doing. Those three World Championships were strictly luck."

I have pointed out that I believe some luck has been involved. But there has also been a significant degree of skill in putting the roster together.

Let's look back a couple of years ago.

In their rotation, they were hoping that Tim Hudson could overcome his gruesome ankle injury and that Matt Cain, Tim Lincecum and Ryan Vogelsong could bounce back. That actually sounds a little WORSE than what they have right now. Certainly not much better.

In the bullpen, they were hoping Sergio Romo would prove himself as their closer. He lost the job mid-season. They were hoping retreads like J.C. Gutierrez, Jean Machi, Yusmeiro Petit and David Huff could remain tread. Sounds worse than now.

They were set behind the plate, although having Hector Sanchez as the backup likely wasn't as good as having Andrew Susac in that situation now.

On the infield, Brandon Belt had never posted an OPS over .800 as he has done twice since. They were praying for the return of Marco Scutaro at second base and were relying on career minor leaguer Brandon Hicks in the meantime. At shortstop, Brandon Crawford wasn't anywhere near the hitter he is now, nor was his fielding at such an elite level. Pablo Sandoval had declined two straight years at the hot corner. The infield is a LOT better now.

The outfield was hoping that Michael Morse could bounce back from a .215 season and could stay healthy despite not being able to play as many as 200 games the previous two seasons. Angel Pagan was coming off a season in which he had been able to play only 71 games. They were hoping Tyler Colvin could help them off the bench. Colvin struck out and hasn't seen the majors since. The outfield was still probably in a little better shape than it is now.

So what we have is a Giants team that is likely better than the one that went on to win the World Championship in 2014 -- even though this team is counting on make two more significant moves. Meanwhile, we're acting like spoiled children even though the Giants have clearly said they're not done yet.

Has anyone though to go back and check out where the Giants were two years ago? There was at LEAST as much room for pessimism as there is now. Yet weren't we quite happy 10 1/2 months later?

Premature speculation, guys. It doesn't look good on us.




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[sfgdood]

Ok let's just back the truck up and stop viewing this offseason with the rose-colored lenses because if you use your eyes and olfactory senses you can see and smell the manure. The main reason this offseason is a failure is because of all the top tier pitchers we either passed on--including Cueto--or missed out on. We had the money and the opportunity to bring in sure thing badasses and instead we are HOPING for Samardzija to be something he was not last year.

As for giving up on the rest of the offseason, the Giants have given good reason to doubt their ability to sign quality FAs.

[Islandboagie]

Totally agree, Randy. The Giants even overpaid with far too many years for a guy who MIGHT straighten out. They didn't even give Lincecum the same respect.

There's definitely doubt in my mind whether they can get any significant free agent signed before the start of spring training. But I still have to hope

[klaiggeb]

And for the record, Boagie, I still have hope, too.

Only with each passing day, that hope is fading.


Now I understand that we are the ONLY team pursuing Cueto.

The article said we were his ONLY suitors.


Hmmm. that makes alarms go off in my head.

Why?

Why has everyone else dropped out?

The cost of his contract? has he priced himself out of the market?

Or is everyone REALLY worried about his huge drop off at the start of last season?

boly

[sfgdood]

I don't know what they're thinking is but as long as there is nothing physically wrong with Johnny, I'm ECSTATIC that nobody else is involved...that would make it nearly impossible for even the Giants to screw it up

[Islandboagie]

Apparently they just signed him, Buster Olney reports.

[Rog]

I don't know what they're thinking is but as long as there is nothing physically wrong with Johnny, I'm ECSTATIC that nobody else is involved...that would make it nearly impossible for even the Giants to screw it up


Rog -- I heard something last night that I realized sometimes has something to say about us. What was said is that we don't see things they are, we see them as WE are. It was also said that we can be better or bitter. I think those two things go a long way in showing why sometimes we see things differently than others.



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[Rog]

Now I understand that we are the ONLY team pursuing Cueto.

The article said we were his ONLY suitors.


Hmmm. that makes alarms go off in my head.


Rog -- I don't think the Giants are the only suitors. If they were, they could get him dirt cheaply. ESPN's Jerry Crasnick reported that action on Cueto was picking up.

This sets up an ironic situation in which if the Giants land Cueto, we can accuse them of bidding against themselves, and if they don't get him, of being cheap.

If wee want to get an idea of what Johnny's situation was last season, we should probably go to his pitching logs. They show that he pitched quite well through is 3rd start with Kansas City -- and then fell off badly. He actually posted a 1.12 ERA in his first four starts with Kansas City, so it wasn't simply that he went to the American League.

It surely looks as if he hurt his arm. He fell off a cliff before righting himself slightly late in September. Even then though, he as giving up more than a hit per inning. He went on to pitch well in the postseason -- with the exception of one disastrous start. The signs would seem to me to point to a sore arm that gradually got better until he was mostly pitching well in the postseason.




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[rxmeister]

DBacks offered him 6/120 which he turned down, so we certainly weren't the only suitors. That was a nice job by the DBacks of setting the market for us and giving us the framework of his deal! I'm pretty sure he's confident and healthy or else he wouldn't have been so adamant about a two year opt out. Maybe the DBacks should be concerned that Greinke DIDN'T ask for one!

[klaiggeb]

I was just reporting what I read the day before we signed cueto. The article said the Giants were the ONLY suitors.

There words guys, not mine.

boly

[Rog]

It's often hard to know which teams are bidding for a particular player. As an example, the Diamondbacks weren't said to be in Greinke until almost literally the last hour.

Someone here said to pick the guy you want and offer him the max you will pay him right off the bat. Could work, but sometimes that merely drives up a player's idea of what his value is. The Giants essentially did that with James Shields last winter, then saw him reject them, only to himself wind up taking a lesser offer.

We don't know whether the Giants were the only suitor for Cueto at the end. How would anyone know? I wouldn't think Cueto's camp would advertise it, and the Giants, frankly, had no honest way of knowing. It's possible the news did slip, and that the Giants were indeed the only suitor left.

What we do apparently know is that the Diamondbacks offered Cueto somewhere between 6/$120 and 6/$126, and that he rejected their offer, which they then pulled off the table and ultimately began focusing on Greinke. That likely reinforced Cueto's idea that he was worth more -- which he ultimately was, but not by much.

Even if the Giants knew they were the only team in on Cueto (which they could have legitimately known only if Cueto's camp told them, which they had no motivation to do), they may have come in with the lowest offer they felt they could get him for without offending him and losing him. (In other words, something above 6/$120 or 6/$130.)

I have suggested before that we put ourselves in a GM's position. He has no legitimate way to know what a player is being offered, and if he dallies too long and loses, his other options can fall off the table. How would it have been if Samardzija and Cueto had been off the table when the Greinke decision was reached.

That's one of the reasons I try to ask in advance what we would do. It's pretty easy to second-guess after the fact, but far tougher to lay out a detailed plan in advanced.

We don't know, of course, how these two signings will work out. But they did make most Giants fans happy.

Then again, so would have re-signing Pablo Sandoval a year ago.

The best factor is that the signings have the POTENTIAL to make the rotation quite strong. Potential doesn't always turn into reality, but I'm coming around on the Samardzija signing, and Cueto was one of my original choices (along with Price). The only thing I don't like about the Cueto deal is the opt-out clause, which puts a high percentage of the risk on the Giants.

If Cueto bombs, the Giants are stuck with him. If he is so-so, he'll likely stay. But if he pitches really well, as Greinke did prior to his own opt-out, the Giants will either overpay for him again or lose him.

Could the Giants have signed Johnny without the opt-out? How do we -- or they -- truly know?

[sfgdood]

Someone here said to pick the guy you want and offer him the max you will pay him right off the bat.

Don't - don't know to whom you're referring here but I never said this...I said pay what it takes but I didn't say your first offer had to be your top offer.




That's one of the reasons I try to ask in advance what we would do. It's pretty easy to second-guess after the fact, but far tougher to lay out a detailed plan in advanced.

Dood - and it's pretty stupid to ask for a detailed plan when you know the person you're asking is not privy to vital information.




We don't know, of course, how these two signings will work out. But they did make most Giants fans happy.

Then again, so would have re-signing Pablo Sandoval a year ago.

Dood - and you were happy with the trade for 6-4-3 McGehee...what's your point?




Could the Giants have signed Johnny without the opt-out? How do we -- or they -- truly know?

Dood - it's clear the Giants believe that to be the case. In that case it was a necessary evil. The Giants suffered through two bad years of Timmy and Tim because they believed in their pitching prospects...now the prospects have been given another two seasons to prove themselves. If they don't, the Giants will once again delve into the FA market and hopefully will be revamping the scouting/development departments.

[Islandboagie]

Someone here said to pick the guy you want and offer him the max you will pay him right off the bat.

Don't - don't know to whom you're referring here but I never said this...I said pay what it takes but I didn't say your first offer had to be your top offer.

Boagie- I said it, and in the case of Zack Greinke it might have been a smart move considering the Dodgers were going to bid hard to keep him away from the Giants. A strong bid in the beginning might have scared off the Dodgers and Diamondbacks from competing. Last off season the Giants wasted a lot of time at the negotiating table, this off season coming out strong might have been a smart move, and allowed them to have more time to negotiate with plan B's.

[Rog]

Ok let's just back the truck up and stop viewing this offseason with the rose-colored lenses because if you use your eyes and olfactory senses you can see and smell the manure.


Rog -- It now appears the manure was simply being used as fertilizer to sew the seeds of big deals.




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[Rog]

Dood - and you were happy with the trade for 6-4-3 McGehee...what's your point?


Rog -- No one was thrilled with trading for McGehee, but whom would you have picked up to man third base if the choice had been yours? As for our point, that would be that the Giants were far better off signing McGehee than signing Sandoval.

Incidentally, shouldn't we be more positive here? The Giants have pretty much met our expectations, even though they have been accused of producing manure instead.




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[Rog]

Rog -- Someone here said to pick the guy you want and offer him the max you will pay him right off the bat.

Randy -- Don't - don't know to whom you're referring here but I never said this...I said pay what it takes but I didn't say your first offer had to be your top offer.


Rog -- Making your top offer right away is more prudent than being willing to pay whatever it takes. In the latter situation, one's risk is infinite.




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[Rog]

the Giants have given good reason to doubt their ability to sign quality FAs.


Rog -- They may or may not have had good reason, but fortunately they didn't.




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