Bobby Evens-MLB Channel

[klaiggeb]

I caught Bobby Evans on MLB last night, and heard pretty much what I expected; nothing of substance.

I understand why he can't say too much, too much going on.

But what he DID say was... interesting.

1-IF you're hoping for a Justin H, or a Just U.... ain't happening. What Bobby said was they are looking at "middle of the road' type of contracts.

2-Bobby said they were DEEP into HEAVY trade negotiations.

3-Bobby hinted that they were REALLY HAPPY with the concept that some of their pitching prospects might make the jump this year to the big club.

That at least gives us SOME hope...

Now, we'll see.

boly

[sfgdood]

Jayson H and Justin U. Looks like it'll be Fowler or someone like that. I wouldn't really have a problem going cheap in the outfield if Evans had picked up a top pitcher...but he didn't. Although Bochy does love him some Upton.

As to the "hope" in the prospects...that's all well and good but sure things are a lot nicer.

We HOPE the prospects can develop fast, we HOPE Samardzija can fix himself, we HOPE Cain can be Cain again. Too much hoping and not enough knowing.

[klaiggeb]

I have no problem with Fowler at all... He can flat out pick 'em in the outfield.

He's NOT a better lead off guy than Pagan. They're about equal, with Fowler being the faster of the 2.

I can live with a "Leake" type guy to fill out the rotation, too.

NOT what I would have liked us to have done, but at least we made steps in the right direction.

At least we'll have some hope, where as without that Leake-type guy there'd be almost NO hope.

Than again, as you said, Randy... too much hope involved.

boly

[Rog]

1-IF you're hoping for a Justin H, or a Just U.... ain't happening. What Bobby said was they are looking at "middle of the road' type of contracts.

2-Bobby said they were DEEP into HEAVY trade negotiations.

3-Bobby hinted that they were REALLY HAPPY with the concept that some of their pitching prospects might make the jump this year to the big club


Rog -- So what might this mean?


I would like to see them sign Jason Heyward, but he is now said to be asking for about $24-$25 million per season for 8 or 9 years instead of 10/$200 as was mentioned before. It sounds as if the Giants may be backing off Heyward, Upton and Cespedes. They have been mentioned in conjunction with Alex Gordon and Dexter Fowler, and the outfield might well be the area they are looking to shore up via trade.

If the Giants are deeply into heavy trade negotiations, that likely means teams are now more willing to trade for prospects, which is what the Giants are hoping to trade. If they are deeply into the talks, that would seem to mean other teams like some of the prospects the Giants have to offer. I would think Christian Arroyo would be at the top of their list, although there is now more talk of the Giants' possibly using Christian in left field if they keep him until he reaches the majors.

If the Giants are happy with the concept that some of their minor league pitchers might help the rotation this year, it gives them a fall-back position which could be addressed in July if necessary. Perhaps more important, they can offer some of their prospects with more conviction. Teams are looking for prospects who are very close to the majors.

It sounds as if the Giants are honing in on their focus. Less worry about signing a top free agent and more on an overall improvement with more chance that will come via trade or from within.

One thing you and Randy must like. If the Giants are heavily into trade negotiations, they are implying they are highly focused on the here and now. Their trading goal is to trade future pieces for NOW pieces. My sense would be that they are looking to acquire players who are under team control for more than a year -- or at least players they feel strongly about being able to keep past free agency.

There are pitchers and outfielders available in trade, and the Giants have a few prospects plus young major leaguers like Andrew Susac and Kelby Tomlinson they might be willing to part with.

Regarding Tomlinson, it appears the Giants have pretty much given up on him as an outfielder. Apparently that transition didn't go well in the Arizona Fall League. The Giants do appear to be relying on him as their primary middle infield replacement, and some mention has been made of Juan Uribe as a possible backup for third base. Surprisingly, Juan is still considered to be a good fielder at the hot corner IIRC.

I'm betting Matt Duffy could become a good left fielder if necessary, so it would be possible both Matt and Juan could play together on occasion. In one sense, it might be possible to platoon Blanco and Uribe, with Matt's moving back and forth between third base and left field.

With benches shortening as teams carry 12 and even 13 pitchers, it is a big advantage to have players who can play multiple positions. That was one of the allures in Ben Zobrist, but he wanted to play primarily second base, and the Giants needed to have him play primarily left field.

I was beginning to wonder if the Giants weren't going to make a trade this week as I had suspected. It sounds as if the chance is still there.







Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3159/bobby-evens-mlb-channel#ixzz3txBQiu38

[Rog]

I have no problem with Fowler at all... He can flat out pick 'em in the outfield.


Rog -- I haven't researched Fowler, but I was surprised to read that he's considered more of a corner outfielder now, and he lacks the traditional power to play a corner position. He did hit 17 homers last season, but his average also fell late in the year, and he wound up at only .250, which I believe gave him a low OBP as you mentioned, Boly.

I'm going to guess that Dexter's hitting outside Coors Field hasn't been very good. One thing he does do is steal bases, but I don't believe he's exceptional even there. Thrown out too much IIRC.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3159/bobby-evens-mlb-channel?page=1#ixzz3txHWZ0jW

[rxmeister]

Rog is correct, Boly. Fowler has become a better hitter, but his fielding has declined sharply and he's no longer a good center fielder. And you're right, Boly, that Bobby Evans can't say too much, because the latest rumors are that the Giants are one of the three finalists for Upton, and also very interested in Chen, who unfortunately has your idol Scott Boras as his agent. Sabean was saying that the Giants will spend big on one of those positions, but not both, and I think whichever one it is will depend on which player is willing to take the deal first. I do not want Mike Leake anymore, because he is willing to take much less to play for hometown Arizona, and I want a player who is willing to take less or at least an equal amount to play for us.

[klaiggeb]

Yeah... I had that crap about Leake yesterday, Mark, and though I ADMIRED that he was willing to take less to play where HE wanted, I was REALLY ticked that he doesn't want to play for us.

Again my question: WHY don't pitchers want to play for SF?

But what you heard Sabean say sort of contradicts what Evans said; Bobby said "middle of the road" contracts; that he wasn't going to go heavy on either pitching or hitting because he wanted both.

And you're right; I do NOT want a Boras' player.

boly

[Rog]

Yeah... I had that crap about Leake yesterday, Mark, and though I ADMIRED that he was willing to take less to play where HE wanted, I was REALLY ticked that he doesn't want to play for us.

Again my question: WHY don't pitchers want to play for SF?

But what you heard Sabean say sort of contradicts what Evans said; Bobby said "middle of the road" contracts; that he wasn't going to go heavy on either pitching or hitting because he wanted both.

And you're right; I do NOT want a Boras' player.


Rog -- I don't think it's that Mike doesn't want to play for the Giants. In fact, I suspect they are his second choice and might even be his first if they had come after him hard. But put yourself in Leake's place (not a place to take a leak). Wouldn't you like it if you could remain at home over the winter, in spring training and half of the regular season? Wouldn't that make for a much better family life?

I also don't think it's that pitchers DON'T want to play in San Francisco, but more a case of circumstances, a fair amount of which may have to do with geography. One would think playing in The City with its diversity, its deep fences, and its World Series would be a draw for pitchers, and that in the long run that will be more the case.

Regarding Evans, perhaps he is tempering expectations. The Giants have seemingly been managing expectations far more this winter than last.

As for players whose agent is Scott Boras, they may be difficult for the Giants to accept because they tend to sign late and for a lot of money, but if the situation were right, why would it matter who the agent was? GM's talk about how well prepared Boras is. As an example, he looks at stats every which way and can usually find some stats that put his client in the best possible light.

He works hard to get his client the best contract he can, and he's usually very successful in doing so. As an example, Scott has filed a grievance on behalf of Kris Bryant and another client saying that they were artificially kept in the minor leagues to delay their free agency time. Teams do that all the time, and Boras is challenging it.

The Giants themselves showed how much baseball is a business when they denied Marlon Byrd the very few plate appearances he needed to have his option vest. They justified it by saying they played him as long as they were in the race and then gave the time to young players for experience and evaluation. I'm not saying they were wrong. What I am saying is that they showed that baseball is indeed a business, and that they wanted to take advantage of a situation that could benefit them rather than show compassion. Mark mentioned that might not put out the best message for free agents, and it may be that their handling of the Mike Leake situation didn't put out a marvelous message either.

If we don't like Scott Boras's ethics, we probably shouldn't like the Giants' either.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3159/bobby-evens-mlb-channel#ixzz3u2A61IK3

[Islandboagie]

Agents really aren't needed anymore. There's enough money swirling around baseball now for the players to be in high demand. With cell phones anyone can be easily contacted, and with the internet all the information is out there.

[Rog]

Agents really aren't needed anymore.


Rog -- I understand your point, Boagie, but agents are needed if one wants the negotiations to be between equals. Chris Speier always represented himself (with the minor exception of my dad once talking to Horace Stoneham on Chris's behalf), but players aren't really trained to negotiate contracts. Chris's son Justin had Chris's former teammate Chris Arnold as his agent. How good an agent Arnold was I don't know, but with the difference in eras, Justin made a ton more money than his dad did.

Manny Trillo's agent was his wife, an attorney. I don't think there is any more effective player agent than Boras in terms of preparation and patience. He is said to care about his players and on occasion to even offer playing advice. Prior to injury, Boras himself was a very good player at University of the Pacific (although as a guy who understands stats, clearly he doesn't watch the game nor ever played it).

Remember that the negotiation game is rigged in the teams' favor. The present system is a revision of the old reserve system, in which teams held the rights of a player until they traded him. The player could play for what he was offered, could negotiate as best he could in unfair circumstances, or could choose to sit out.

Teams still control players for up to 13 seasons, although that comes back to haunt them when the supply of free agents after each season is far more limited than with unlimited free agency. It should be noted that it usually takes a fair amount of time to develop a player, and that cost would be wasted if players were able to declare free agency after each season.

[klaiggeb]

Sorry, Rog, but for reasons I've outlined a gazillion times, Boras is a slimy, greedy, blood-sucking scum bag.

boly

[Rog]

Sorry, Rog, but for reasons I've outlined a gazillion times, Boras is a slimy, greedy, blood-sucking scum bag.


Rog -- I have likely studied him more than anyone here, and you may be right. I have read enough to suspect what you say may be true, but I'm just not sure. What I am convinced of though is that while Scott isn't always successful, he does a better job for his clients than any other agent.

If I were a player who was trying to get most of what I wanted, I would research him closely, and if I felt his ethics were OK, would choose him as my agent. I would outline and prioritize what I wanted to accomplish and tell him to gain me as much of those items as he could, not simply the money. If he is ethical and understood what I wanted to accomplish, I don't know of any agent who would fight harder or more intelligently to get it for me.

If I were a small fish, I would ask him to honestly tell me if I would get lost in the school, and if he told me I wouldn't, I would still go with him.

In reality, I wouldn't be surprised if another agent won me over on a personal basis, but from a business standpoint, I would lean toward Boras. As far as I can tell, he simply does his job better than any other agent.



Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3159/bobby-evens-mlb-channel#ixzz3u36t8jhW

[klaiggeb]

If I'M a player, I do NOT want someone unscrupulous representing me.

Boras has continually displayed less than admirable negotiating tactics.

Business is not, as the Japanese believe, war.

I believe in being fair and up front.

Boras does not.

He holds clubs by the throat and manipulates them; a tactic I do not agree with.

boly

[Rog]

I believe in being fair and up front.

Boras does not.


Rog -- I'm not sure. I too believe in being fair and up front (at least as much as one can in a negotiation). I've looked around a lot, and I honestly can't tell with Scott. I haven't found much that was conclusive either way.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3159/bobby-evens-mlb-channel#ixzz3u3Or8AVL

[Rog]

If I were to guess based on my study, I would guess that Scott has been unethical on at least one occasion, which in itself likely wouldn't make him much different than many agents, but still one more time than I would like.

But I have a hard time condemning someone without more proof.

The one thing I'm quite sure of is that he's an excellent negotiator. He also appears to be more concerned about his clients than most, although of that I'm not fully sure.

I guess what it boils down to is that I'm highly sure only that he does a good job of getting top dollar for his clients. And that his preparation is excellent. And that he will go further for his clients than most.

[klaiggeb]

when he plays one team against another, though probably NOT unethical by definition, he does it on PURPOSE simply to drive up the cost.

Owners are STUPID, and he knows that.

Taking advantage of someone else's weakness is unscrupulous at the very least.

I do not associate, nor do I do business with people who prey on others who are weak.

boly

[Islandboagie]

Boras is a fantastic agent if inflated contracts and big signing bonuses are your thing. He's a bad agent if your dream is to play baseball and believe you should be paid an appropriate amount due to your contributions on the field.

Boras is all about the money, he's not so much about being a partner for young kids that want to get drafted.

There are countless kids who never got to play professional ball because Boras wasnt happy with his take on the signing bonuses.

I'm sure there are a lot of players that have benefitted from Boras and his tactics, but there are many who also ended up with nothing because Boras wasn't getting a big enough paycheck off the dreams of a young kid. Despicable if you ask me.

[rxmeister]

There have been players who got less because of Boras' tactics, but for every one of them there's ten more who have gotten so much more. His job is to get the most possible money in their preferred destination and he's simply the best at that. The only reason I don't like him as a fan, is that he holds out his clients way too long and basically holds your offseason hostage. The Giants are interested in his pitcher Wei Yi Chen, and he would be a terrific addition. However, are you supposed to wait and watch all the other pitchers get gobbled up while Boras refuses to compromise? That's what he's counting on. He wants his clients to be the last ones left, because that's when teams get desperate. We may not like it, but there's nothing illegal or unscrupulous about it and it's what makes him the best agent out there.

[klaiggeb]

Like I said, Mark, not illegal, but UNscrupulous.

IF that kind of business is okay with you... you and I have a different perspective on ethics, morals, and right and wrong.

boly

[Rog]

when he plays one team against another, though probably NOT unethical by definition, he does it on PURPOSE simply to drive up the cost.


Rog -- It's not only unethical, it helps him do his job properly. His job is to get his client the best offer possible. Every team is eligible for the auction, and it is his job to play them against each other to get the price up for his client. Even if his client has decided in advance which team he wants to play for, it is Boras's job to make sure the player is able to do so under the best circumstances possible.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3159/bobby-evens-mlb-channel#ixzz3u8CW4u00

[Rog]

Taking advantage of someone else's weakness is unscrupulous at the very least.


Rog -- Not in this circumstance. Remember, the owners were perfectly happy with the reserve clause, which was determined to be unfair. The reserve clause was in effect for decades and was essentially indentured servitude. Even now a player can be controlled for up to 13 years before he becomes eligible for free agency. What's fair about that?

Well, it is fair in one sense. It has been bargained into effect, which theoretically means it is a compromise between two groups (owners and labor) with very different business purposes.

But would you or I be happy if a company could control us for up to 13 years -- as many as 10 of them where they totally control our salary, as long as it is above a pre-determined minimum? I don't think so.

One can always argue that players could play elsewhere, but in reality, MLB and MILB have close to a monopoly in this country.

I understand your point, Boly, and I completely agree with you that if an agent is unethical, he is wrong. But I don't think you're seeing both sides of the issue -- both management and labor. I'm not pro-union, but it has been unscrupulous owners -- including many in baseball -- who have made unions somewhat necessary.

By the way, no one should feel overly sorry for too many of the major league players. They fare very well financially. But most players who enter pro ball don't. It's a pretty darn tough life in the minor leagues. Some players hit the jackpot of free agency, but most don't even make the majors.

Why is there is so much more complaining about the high salaries paid to professional athletes than about actors and entertainers who make similar money?

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3159/bobby-evens-mlb-channel?page=1#ixzz3u8DOTgO9

[Rog]

There are countless kids who never got to play professional ball because Boras wasnt happy with his take on the signing bonuses.


Rog -- Perhaps you could start counting and identifying for us, Boagie. I'm not aware of this problem.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3159/bobby-evens-mlb-channel?page=1#ixzz3u8GB5fYA

[Rog]

Like I said, Mark, not illegal, but UNscrupulous.


Rog -- Please tell us what you are sure Scott Boras has done that is unscrupulous or unethical. As I have said, there probably have been instances, but I don't know of any for sure.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3159/bobby-evens-mlb-channel?page=1#ixzz3u8GXygwg

[klaiggeb]

Roger, what more do I have to say?

1-He plays one owner/team against another, which, in and of itself, is not something I object to because it's an understood part of negotiations.

But he takes it to the extreme. He knows many of the owners are idiots and plays upon their weaknesses.

2-Scripture calls what he does as "usury:" Taking advantage of another just because you can.

3-Every company, every business owner's desire is to make money. I have no problem with that. But making money in a FAIR, HONEST way is not what Boras does.

What he does is prey upon others to maximize his dollars, and that's where I draw the line.

And he cleverly disguises what he does by saying: "I'm the agent, it's my job to get maximum dollars for my clients."

And no question, that is the job of the agent.

But that BELIES what his actual goal is!

The bottom line is HE gets more money when his clients get more because HE gets a percentage!

Let's not pretend it's anything other than that.


Roger, if you have no problem with his tactics, if anyone on this board has no problem with his tactics... then there is NO COMMON upon which to stand to even discuss the topic.

This isn't a matter of opinion. It's a matter of the heart.

And if you do agree with what he does, Roger, than I am extremely disappointed in you.

I thought you were more ethical than that.

boly

[rxmeister]

I just don't see how it's unethical to get the most money for your client. That's his job. If he's lying to GM's and owners that's one thing, but he hasn't been accused of that.

[Rog]

Oops. I meant to say above it it's NOT unethical, but I left out the NOT. That's a knotty problem. But hopefully not a naughty problem.

[Rog]

I have never seen a definition of usury as anything that didn't involve interest. I'm pretty sure I've posted this before, but here is what biblestudytools.com/definition/usury says. Where in the Bible do we see usury defined any other way? I'm open to this. I just don't know where it is defined that way.



Usury [N]
the sum paid for the use of money, hence interest; not, as in the modern sense, exorbitant interest. The Jews were forbidden to exact usury ( Leviticus 25:36 Leviticus 25:37 ), only, however, in their dealings with each other ( Deuteronomy 23:19 Deuteronomy 23:20 ). The violation of this law was viewed as a great crime ( Psalms 15:5 ; Proverbs 28:8 ; Jeremiah 15:10 ). After the Return, and later, this law was much neglected ( Nehemiah 5:7 Nehemiah 5:10 ).

[Rog]

I don't know why the definition is lined out above. It isn't that way in the original.

[Rog]

And if you do agree with what he does, Roger, than I am extremely disappointed in you.

I thought you were more ethical than that.


Rog -- I have said that if Scott is unethical, I'm not with him. I have also said that after what is perhaps more research than anyone else here, I just can't tell. I have also said that if my life depended on it, I would say he HAS committed some ethical violations. I would also say that almost anyone involved daily in business probably has. It isn't always intended.

But I can't crucify someone based solely on what I think. I need facts, or at least good logic.

Let me ask you this, Boly. Have you ever cheated in sports, or at least "bent" the rules? Do you push the rules to the limit, which is what Boras usually does?

When I played (which of course I didn't, since I didn't watch the games and thus has no idea how the game was played), I definitely pushed the rules to the limit with hard play. I can't think of when I cheated or "bent" the rules, but I probably did somewhere along the line and just don't remember it.

We're all human after all.

Speaking biblically, here's a thought. With regard to buys like Bobby Evans and Scott Boras, let him who is without sin cast the first stone. I live in a house with glass windows, so I don't like to throw stones.

And, Randy, I apologize for doing so to you. I get so frustrated that I blow it. I guess what I do most is cast stones at the stone throwers. That still doesn't make it right for me.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3159/bobby-evens-mlb-channel?page=1#ixzz3u9iY2mY0

[Rog]

This isn't a matter of opinion. It's a matter of the heart.


Rog -- Aren't matters of the heart matters a special type of matters of opinion? Unless, of course, we're talking about heart disease, and even there differences of opinion exist.



Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3159/bobby-evens-mlb-channel?page=1#ixzz3u9kecIHL