|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Dec 10, 2015 2:46:53 GMT -5
After hearing that Zobrist was actually offered more money by the Giants than he ended up getting from the Cubs, I say screw em.
Screw all the free agents. From Lester to Shields, Greinke to Zobrist.
Why are we so enamored with big free agents anyways? Didn't we always knock other teams that bought Championships? I say screw it all.
Resign Lincecum, Vogey and invite Aubrey Huff to camp. I'd rather lose with our guys than win with a bunch of hired help.
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member 
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Dec 10, 2015 11:53:09 GMT -5
The point is to have the personnel to win, whether you grow it at home or hire it from the outside. Right now, and in the foreseeable future, the Giants DO NOT have the homegrown pitching to win more pennants and titles. Samardzija isn't going to change that but it is what it is. My problem with the Giants FO is twofold. They are too cheap to go after the best FAs sometimes and then in the rare times they do, they can't close the deal.
|
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Dec 10, 2015 12:52:36 GMT -5
In all three Championship seasons the Giants haven't had the personnel to win, or at least that's what the "experts" thought. At times so did you, Randy. And during some of the odd years you had high hopes. You were hardup for Tejada, and he was probably the worst Giants off season pickup in recent years. So what makes you the expert on what personnel makes a winning team?
You can't tell me the Giants can't win with Tim Lincecum in the rotation, they've done it 3 times, two of which he struggled.
You can't tell me we couldn't win with Vogelsong, we did it twice. And the second time he had already been considered "done" by many here, how's it any different now?
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Dec 10, 2015 14:34:26 GMT -5
The 2010 and 2012 rotations were deadly as was the bullpen. You can't say that about this rotation. Just like last year we have question marks galore. I'm not saying they can't be a winning ball club. I'm saying it's hardly a sure bet to make the playoffs...and if we do, it will once again be MadBum vs the world. We had the cash to go out and make the rest of baseball say, "Oh shit, the Giants are stacked in the rotation again...look out." Instead they all took a huge sigh of relief when viewing our moves.
Oh and FYI...Vogelsong was considered done many times in his career, even in Japan. I commend him for putting off his demise but there's only so long that can happen. Also, I never was "hardup" for Tejada...I merely had patience with him based on what I had seen the previous year in SD.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Dec 10, 2015 15:42:28 GMT -5
The 2010 and 2012 rotations were deadly as was the bullpen. You can't say that about this rotation. Rog -- The 2010 and 2012 rotations both included Barry Zito, so they weren't completely deadly. In 2014 the rotation included Hudson, Lincecum and Vogelsong, so it certainly wasn't deadly -- and yet the result was the same. Depending on how Jeff Samardzija does, the rotation may already be stronger than in 2014, and the Giants don't appear to be done with it yet. One kind of has to admit something here, one way or the other. Either the Giants were lucky in 2014, and/or they definitely have a shot this year. Comparing the Giants' present roster with their 2014 team, they have improved all around the infield except first base, and their rotation may be a little stronger than it was when they won the World Series. Do we see any significant declines? I think the Giants are going to add at least two more significant pieces, yet they might already be better than the team that won it in 2014. Are the Giants where we would want their roster to be? No. But we shouldn't forget that they weren't in 2010, 2012 or 2014 either. They simply perservered and beat other favored teams. We're getting all upset now (even though the Giants' moves aren't through yet), even though there was little if any reason to be more hopeful 6, 4, and 2 years ago. In fact, the Giants have less bouncing back to do than two years ago, when they finished under .500. Incidentally, that saying "if you're not getting better, you're getting worse" sounds nice. And to an extent, it makes sense. The only problem is that it isn't true. If you're not getting better, there are two other possible results. One of them is that you're saying the same. At this point, the Giants are likely about the same as they were a year ago. With the loss of Zack Greinke, the Dodgers have gotten worse. The Diamondbacks have certainly gotten a lot better, but at least one poster wasn't worried about them anyway. Personally I am worried about Arizona, but if we go along with that poster, why would we be worried with the Giants having declined less than the only NL West team that beat them out last season? There seem to be some inconsistencies. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3158/free-agents#ixzz3tx0dPtVd |
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Dec 10, 2015 15:44:56 GMT -5
Instead they all took a huge sigh of relief when viewing our moves. Rog -- They might want to save that sigh of relief until the Giants are done with their moves. And you might want to expose your head to the sun until then as well. There will be plenty of time to worry once we know what the Giants are actually facing. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3158/free-agents?page=1#ixzz3tx8JV5jn |
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Dec 10, 2015 16:47:08 GMT -5
the difference in 2014 was the difference in the first and second half performances of Hudson, coupled with some key 2nd half injuries. In the first half, Huddy, and the team in general, was on fire. In the second half, not so much. In the postseason Bumgarner put in an unprecedented performance and it was only just barely enough.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Dec 10, 2015 17:34:24 GMT -5
the difference in 2014 was the difference in the first and second half performances of Hudson, coupled with some key 2nd half injuries. In the first half, Huddy, and the team in general, was on fire. In the second half, not so much. In the postseason Bumgarner put in an unprecedented performance and it was only just barely enough. Rog -- Are you saying that the Giants were lucky in 2014? If the 2014 Giants entered the postseason with just what they had at that time, how many times out of 10 do you think they would have won it all? If you had known at the beginning of the season the extent of the injuries they would sustain, what would you have said their chances were? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3158/free-agents#ixzz3txZ7Z1lI |
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Dec 11, 2015 9:40:13 GMT -5
The Giants offered Zobrist more, but the Mets offered even more than the Giants, so I have no hard feelings for what he did. He wanted to play closer to home and for his old manager Joe Madden, and there's nothing wrong with that. As for who has gotten better or worse than last season, it's still early December. Let's see how it plays out.
|
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Dec 11, 2015 10:38:35 GMT -5
Paper wise, right now, Mark, I think we are better in starting pitching than this time last year.
Hudson, Vogey, Peavy, Cain and Lincecum... more fingers crossed there, than there is now.
Why?
1-Cain got better each outing, culminating with a really good final performance. THAT is more encouraging that "not knowing where he was at" in his rehab which is where we were this time last year
2-Peavy showed that, when healthy, he can still pitch.
3-Adding Samardzidja gives us, at the VERY LEAST, someone who can eat up some innings.
Still a lot of fingers crossed, and a lot of prayers and "God-I-Hope-he's..." but from where I sit, still more positives in the rotation than last year.
But that said, we have WORK THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE!
1-Another good starter. I'd like Pfister if I can't have Leake.
2-If Fowler has fallen off in CF, then we need a CF.
But whatever work is to be done we simply CANNOT trade Panik, Duffy, nor Crawford.
Period.
boly
|
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Dec 11, 2015 13:32:29 GMT -5
They are too cheap to go after the best FAs sometimes and then in the rare times they do, they can't close the deal. Rog -- It is disappointing that they haven't signed any of them, but can we honestly say they were too cheap with regard to Sandoval, Lester, Shields and Greinke? On the first three, they offered at least as much as the players signed for, and in Greinke's case, he was signed to what might have been the biggest stretch in an offer yet. The Diamondbacks were in much better shape to make such an offer than the Giants were, since at the time, they had committed over $100 million less than the Giants had committed for 2016. Do you get it, Randy? It is the DIAMONDBACKS who have been cheap, not the Giants. And by being cheap, they were in position to make one really big expenditure. One more question, Randy? Are you taking the Diamondbacks a little more seriously now than you were when they first signed Zack? You didn't realize how much they had improved from 2014 to 2015, did you? The Diamondbacks finished 1st in defense and 2nd in scoring. Their weakness was starting pitching. It's not as much of a weakness now. If they sign Mike Leake, it will be even less of one. Last season the "cheap" Giants spent nearly twice as much as the Diamondbacks. So how are the Diamondbacks spending so much more now? It's not coincidental that their current signing corresponds with their signing of a $1.5 billion TV contract. The Giants will still almost certainly wind up spending a lot more than the Diamondbacks next season, but the gap is narrowing. It's kind of ironic, but by being able to outbid both the Dodgers and the Giants for Zack Greinke, the Diamondbacks demonstrated that neither of those teams were cheap. If they had been as cheap as the Diamondbacks, they might have been better prepared for what might be considered an overbid. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3158/free-agents#ixzz3u2HUWH00 |
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Dec 11, 2015 13:46:04 GMT -5
Even as they just concluded a big trade, one could argue that the Diamondbacks and Braves BOTH have had the best off-seasons. The Diamondbacks have clearly strengthened their present, while the Braves have built for the future.
The Cubs are now reaching that same area of success with the signing of Jason Heyward. 23-year-old outfielder Jorge Soler might now be available, although the Giants wouldn't seem a good trade fit. Or maybe the Cubs will simply play Heyward in center field. The Cubs were darn good last season. With the addition of Lackey, Zobrist and now Heyward, they're approaching awesome.
The Cubs were also in position for all their spending the past two winters because they've been cheap. Suddenly it's the cheap teams that are getting really good.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Dec 11, 2015 15:19:56 GMT -5
You know, the Cubs might be the best team in baseball now. If the Diamondbacks aren't. Those two teams have really helped themselves, and the Diamondbacks still might land Mike Leake.
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Dec 11, 2015 15:34:03 GMT -5
getting pretty tiresome watching team after team pass us by in the NL
|
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Dec 11, 2015 16:03:31 GMT -5
Randy, you're reading my mind.
We keep falling father, and farther and farther behind.
boly
|
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Dec 11, 2015 16:12:32 GMT -5
getting pretty tiresome watching team after team pass us by in the NL Rog -- Indeed it is. But that is the nature of the system. Teams fare poorly (as the Giants did in the mid- to late oughts), and if they draft well, they rebuild with good, young players. This enables them to field a good team at a cheap price. Often they then use this savings to win the top free agents bids. I doubt the Cubs or especially the Diamondbacks will spend as much on salaries this season as the Giants, but they are more in the sweet spot of being able to keep their salaries low and thus be in good position to compete for the top free agents. Having Joe Maddon as their manager has also helped the Cubs acquire a free agent or two. The Giants' policy has been to build with character players developed in their own system, then surround them with character players from outside. Although recently the Giants have (unsuccessfully) gone after the top free agents, most of their success has come from their own players and mid-priced trade acquisitions and free agents. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3158/free-agents#ixzz3u31k9C4i |
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Dec 11, 2015 16:56:19 GMT -5
And I like their strategy, rog. But... but... in this off season, SO FAR... they have NOT surrounded their core home-grown talent with NEEDED adds from FA
boly
|
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Dec 11, 2015 17:01:03 GMT -5
The Cubs are now said to be looking to upgrade their rotation via trades. They have a lot to trade, so they will likely find something reasonably good. We've talked about the Cubs' rise for quite a while here, but the Diamondbacks caught me more by surprise. If the Diamondbacks sign Mike Leake, they'll be extremely good, as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Dec 11, 2015 17:06:27 GMT -5
While we are critcizing the Giants for being cheap, they're being passed by teams that are far cheaper than they. More than anything else, it seems the Cubs and Diamondbacks have done a lot of things RIGHT. The Mets are another team with great young pitching (including Zack Wheeler).
|
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Dec 11, 2015 17:19:40 GMT -5
Not that it was any type of addition, but the Giants consider the long term contract of Brandon Crawford part of their off-season work to date. We're looking for additions, obviously, but re-signing Brandon at a nice price is good work in and of itself and shouldn't be completely overlooked. To be honest, I had already done so.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Dec 11, 2015 17:22:51 GMT -5
By the way, Boly, I agree with you that the Giants haven't done enough. I'm disappointed in Samardzija, although I believe I understand their thinking. They seem to do pretty well with pitchers, so I should probably trust them even as I'm disagreeing with their choice.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Dec 11, 2015 17:25:27 GMT -5
I'm disappointed the Giants didn't land Heyward, especially since it appears he's going to play center field. I think the 8/$184 the deal is supposed to be for is fair, although clearly an 8-year contract involves considerable risk.
Without advanced metrics to identify the impact of his fielding and base running, Heyward would never have landed such a big contract.
|
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Dec 11, 2015 22:24:25 GMT -5
From all that I've read, Rog, Heyward was looking to get around 200 million.
For a guy who's NOT a HR hitter, that's way too much money.
No way would I have wanted out club to spend that much money to get him.
boly
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Dec 12, 2015 2:48:42 GMT -5
While we are critcizing the Giants for being cheap, they're being passed by teams that are far cheaper than they. More than anything else, it seems the Cubs and Diamondbacks have done a lot of things RIGHT. The Mets are another team with great young pitching (including Zack Wheeler).
Dood - and the reason they are able to "do it right" is because they were God awful for so many years that they gobbled up lots of 1st round picks and sold away veteran talent for more prospects. I don't know about you, but I'd rather not have to suffer through lots of terrible seasons
|
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Dec 12, 2015 8:32:59 GMT -5
It was reported last night that the Giants offered Greinke 6/195 and he was minutes away from signing before the DBacks called with 6/210. I know it's small consolation, but it shows the Giants willingness to spend, and the money saved by missing out on Zack will undoubtably go into more players and not in their pocket. As for Samardzija, he said yesterday he was tipping his pitches and it wasn't caught until the end of the season. The White Sox pitching coach even apologized to him and said that he failed him by not picking it up earlier. I'm confident he'll be a different pitcher under Righetti. When's the last time the Giants had a starter who consistently threw 97 mph? I'm thinking it was Timmy in his rookie season. I know I'm a cockeyed optimist but I like the signing and am awaiting the pitcher and LF before calling the offseason a failure like the rest of you are.
|
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Dec 12, 2015 11:05:43 GMT -5
Mark-I know I'm a cockeyed optimist but I like the signing and am awaiting the pitcher and LF before calling the offseason a failure like the rest of you are.
****boly says****
You're not a cockeyed optimist, Mark, not at all.
I, too, like the signing. Jeffy had some solid years before last year's debacle, and from all I've read, and now what you posted, we all have a really GOOD reason to BE optimistic about him.
It's just that FOR ME, signing Jeffy isn't NEAR enough. Ain't even close!
We needed 1 of the top arms AND Jeffy.
I was very careful in all of my posts evaluating our off season. I continued to say SO FAR, or AT THIS POINT or AT THIS POINT IN TIME...
The off season isn't done, but again, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, what we've done is basically... well... not nothing, but close to it.
We MUST HAVE that other arm. And it CAN'T BE some putz.
I STILL want Cueto, which isn't going to happen, or Leake.
Failing that, Pfister.
But Pfister is a step down and so is Leake, from what we NEED.
We also MUST GET a CF.
Bobby Evans keeps talking about being "close" to deals...
Really, Bobby? Really?
And whom are you going to move?
Why am I holding my breath that it's NOT Joe Panik?
Because I don't trust you, that's why.
And I WON'T trust you until you MAKE an impact deal that DOESN'T strip us of an outstanding middle infielder!
Meanwhile, we all hold our breath and wait.
And wait...
And wait...
And, as Randy and I keep saying, falling further and further behind.
boly
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Dec 12, 2015 12:15:54 GMT -5
in most years, the Samardzija signing would be one I'd be glad about...but in THIS offseason, with all the top guys that were available and with all the available cash the team had/has...this signing is a bitter disappointment. We could have done so much better if we had just cast our net over all 4 of the top tier guys instead of just putting all our eggs in the Greinke basket. Maybe we could have gotten Price or Zimmerman and still have enough for Samardzija. Evans seems to be fine with settling for mediocre guys with potential for more than going hard after the best. And he still isn't learning the lesson of FA failures in past years. The Giants have to do more than just put a competitive offer out there...they have to OVERPAY in order to get their guy. I'd rather they do that then continue this disturbing trend of rejection year after year.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Dec 12, 2015 13:31:19 GMT -5
From all that I've read, Rog, Heyward was looking to get around 200 million. For a guy who's NOT a HR hitter, that's way too much money. No way would I have wanted out club to spend that much money to get him. Rog -- Heyward is your type of player, Boly. He's about speed and defense. He's a very good hitter, but not a great one. As an all-around player, he is excellent. Do we see a conflict in saying that we would build a team around Jason Heyward-type players, but then say that we would pay home run hitters more money? If all-around players with speed and defense are more valuable, why wouldn't we pay them more? And if they're not more valuable, why would we build our team around them instead of around power hitters? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3158/free-agents#ixzz3u8HFdEmN |
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Dec 12, 2015 13:45:56 GMT -5
Jeffy had some solid years before last year's debacle Rog -- Jeff's only truly good season as a starter was 2014. With a 3.81 ERA and a 1.22 WHIP in 2012, he wasn't bad. Last season the average NL ERA was 3.91. Jeff's career ERA is 4.09. The average WHIP was 1.30. Jeff's is 1.28. The average H/9 was 8.7. Jeff's career mark is 8.5. The average walks were 2.9. Jeff is at 3.0 over his career. The average HR/9 was 1.0, the same as Jeff's career. The average K/9 was 7.9. Jeff's is 8.2. Jeff throws hard, and he now has good control. Apparently his problem is, not surprisingly, that he leaves balls over the middle on occasion. The Giants think they can tweak Samardzija's mechanics and make him an effective pitcher. I do have some confidence in their ability to do so. I just hate to see them spend $18 million per season with a project when there were -- and still are -- good pitchers out there with less risk. We talk about Jeff's horrible 2015 season, but his ERA was at 3.85 entering the season. That's not bad, but is it 5/$90 good? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3158/free-agents?page=1#ixzz3u8IQJfny |
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Dec 12, 2015 13:48:03 GMT -5
|
|
