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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 9, 2015 14:38:18 GMT -5
With the passing of each day, with the inactivity of the Giants' front office, we fall further and further behind.
Yesterday, the Diamondbacks traded for Shelby Miller.
Now THEY have a staff!
Greinke, Corbin, Miller.
And we have.... ummmm, Bumgarner and, umm..... hopes? Prayers?
Yeah. That about sums it up.
Hopes and prayers that:
1-Cain has 'found it' again
2-Smardzja can return to what he was...
Teams are adding pitchers and bats and we're doing, well, nothing.
We'll see, but right now, pencil us in for 3rd place.
For right now.
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on Dec 9, 2015 15:18:08 GMT -5
The Diamondbacks are better than they were a week ago. But if the Giants had traded for Miller you and Randy would be calling them cheap. So let's not blow the two Diamondback moves out of proportion. Shelby Miller is a decent pitcher, but let's not forget he lost 17 games last season. 17! If you consider his ERA that probably means he lost a lot of close games, and the NL West is a division based on close games.
By losing Greinke the Dodgers have gotten worse, much worse.
The Giants have upgraded by getting Samardzija, and there's still more time to get another pitcher and/or a left fielder.
I was hoping for Greinke, but I think the media and fans weren't ready to accept just one free agent pitcher, so the organization felt compelled to pass on Greinke and focus on two.
If the Giants screwed up with the Greinke negotiations, it's that they allowed the market to raise the price too high. If I were Evans, I would have sat down with Sabean and the ownership and asked "so what exactly is our ceiling price on Greinke?" Whatever they said at that time I would have offered him that the day he became a free agent. If they had offered him $30 mil+ per season before Price signed, him and his agents would have scrambled for the pen.
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sfgdood
Long time member 
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 9, 2015 15:23:31 GMT -5
That's what I've been saying ever since we lost out on the top tiers and settled for Samardzija. The apologists on this board that backed the Giants FA failure LAST offseason reasoned that we would have more money for all the stud FAs available this season...and now we missed out/passed on all those guys. This is an indictment on both this offseason and last offseason. And the apologists still want to praise them for doing the "same things" that won 3 titles in the last 6 years. In this business, if you're not getting better you're getting worse because in addition to the Cubs, Mets, Pirates and others that were already better than us, now teams like the DBacks are making moves to be better as well. And we're still resting on our laurels "hoping" it will work out, as Boly says. What we should have done is be pro-active and make sure of who we got. We should have paid the price to get the sure things instead of relying on guys we "hope" will improve.
We're not getting better...we're getting worse.
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 9, 2015 15:48:54 GMT -5
boagie:
No question Miller didn't have a good W/L record... but look at his run support, #1, then his ERA.
This guy is a quality, quality arm!
Not an ace by any stretch of the imagination, but as a # 2 or 3?
He's outstanding.
But we're doing NOTHING.
Nothing.
Yes, there's time left, boagie, but the longer we wait, the longer it takes, the farther and farther we slip behind....
What's that line from the Pink Floyd song: "shorter of breath, and one day closer to death."
That kinds of sums up my CURRENT perspective of this off season.
The longer we wait, the closer we are to NOT being able to have a legit shot (death) of going to the playoffs, much less the World Series
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 9, 2015 16:02:02 GMT -5
the title of the song Boly quoted is "Brain Damage"...which is what I think of the Giants FO right about now.
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Post by Islandboagie on Dec 9, 2015 20:31:27 GMT -5
Boly- Not an ace by any stretch of the imagination, but as a # 2 or 3?
He's outstanding.
Boagie- If you think a pitcher with a 3+ ERA and 17 losses is an outstanding #2 pitcher we're never going to agree, Boly.
Now, he COULD develop into a pitcher like you are describing, but then again so could Samardzija. And I haven't even touched on what the Diamondbacks gave up for him. If you don't know, it was a bad deal for Arizona, very bad.
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 9, 2015 21:20:26 GMT -5
They did give up a lot, boagie, but I think you are seriously underestimating Miller.
I've watched him pitch often, and his better than just looking at the numbeers.
But I do agree with you on one thing; Atlanta MADE OUT well!
boly
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 9, 2015 21:23:16 GMT -5
Watching the Giants go about their business, and I say go about it poorly, I'm reminded of playing single deck Black Jack.
When all the aces have come up, there is NO CHANCE of a 2 card Black Jack.
When the face cards are gone, too... even a 3 card Black Jack becomes increasingly less likely.
Kind of like this off season; All the aces are out of the deck, and the face cards are fading fast.
Hitting that "21" is becoming less likely with each hand.
boly
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Post by Rog on Dec 10, 2015 16:24:55 GMT -5
We're not getting better...we're getting worse.
Rog -- I don't think the Giants have improved as much as any of us would have like this off-season, but just how is it that they've gotten worse? About the only thing of significance they've lost is Nori Aoki.
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Post by Rog on Dec 10, 2015 16:27:21 GMT -5
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Post by Rog on Dec 10, 2015 16:51:17 GMT -5
Boagie- If you think a pitcher with a 3+ ERA and 17 losses is an outstanding #2 pitcher we're never going to agree, Boly. Rog -- Boly told you why Shelby Miller's record was so bad, Boagie. Run support. Just 2.59 runs of it, which might make it the worst in the majors. Certainly pretty close to worst. You yourself said Miller likely lost a lot of close games. Surprisingly, he didn't. He got the loss in only one 1-run game, and in only two 2-run games. But when you get only 2.59 runs of support, you're not going to win often. Miller had an ERA that was a third of a run higher in 2013, yet he went 15-9 because he had two and a quarter more runs of support. Let me ask you this, Boagie. How did you feel about Matt Cain back in say 2009? Matt had posted full-season ERA's of 4.15, 3.65 and 3.76. He was just 30-43. Miller is 32-35, with full-season ERA's of 3.06, 3.74 and 3.06. Clearly Miller has pitched better than Matt had, but we knew that Matt was better than he had shown, in great part because of his poor run support. Matt went on to average an ERA less than 3.00 over the next four seasons, making the All-Star team three times. So, yes, Boagie. Miller is a darn good #2. His career ERA is lower than either Jon Lester or James Shields. It's lower than Max Scherzer. It's lower than Matt Cain. it's lower, believe it or not, than Zack Greinke. And you're saying that Miller isn't an outstanding #2 just because he got lousy run support? Or are you saying that Shelby is actually a #1 who hasn't gotten proper run support? If the Giants had been able to trade for Miller, I would have been elated. Heck, I'd be thrilled if the Giants were able to trade for Miller's teammate, Julio Teheran. Teheran himself is 40-30 with a 3.44 career ERA and is under team control for five more years at a cost of $30.6 million. Unfortunately, I don't see the Braves as a great trade fit. But there are good pitchers out there to trade for. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3157/another-day-more?page=1#ixzz3txJsNfnR |
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 12, 2015 8:45:28 GMT -5
The DBacks are literally the laughing stock of baseball for making the Shelby Miller trade and then I come on here and see everyone praising it! Do you see what they gave up? Ender Inciarte, who hit .300 as a rookie playing CF, a pitcher who was a first round draft pick who might wind up being better than Miller, and a kid named Swanson was the first overrall pick in the draft last year! Not their first round pick, the first overrall pick entirely! For a good but not great pitcher? Dave Stewart has been defending himself ever since. Do the know what the Indians wanted for Carrasco? Joe Panik, Christian Arroyo, Tyler Beede, Phil Bickford and Lucious Fox! That's all? And you're criticizing them for not making a trade?
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 12, 2015 11:16:26 GMT -5
Mark, you might be hearing that they're the laughing stock, but no one out here on the west coast, nor on the MLB channel that I've heard, are laughing.
I have yet to hear ONE analyst criticize what the Diamond Backs have done.
Not one.
Did they say that Arizona gave up too much?
Yes.
But they LOVE Shelby Miller.
Would I give up all of that for Carasco?
Oh my God, NO!
HELL NO!
I haven't seen any of us criticizing us for NOT making a trade.
All my critiques have been about what they DIDN'T DO in the off season had to do with FA, not deals.
I don't see where Arroyo or Fox fits into our future and if someone wants them in a deal for a player I want?
Done!
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 12, 2015 12:23:29 GMT -5
No one will be laughing at them when they start playing. They used the Padres model but instead of obtaining hitters, they stocked up on pitching, just as the Giants SHOULD have been doing. Pitching wins in this league. Look at the Mets and the Pirates and the Cards. The DBacks now have it and we don't, except for Bum.
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Post by Rog on Dec 12, 2015 12:27:42 GMT -5
Many think both the Diamondbacks and Braves fared well in the Shelby Miller trade. The Braves did for sure. They wound up trading a year of Jason Heyward for a very nice cache of prospects. Their rebuilding effort over the past year has been excellent.
As for the Diamondbacks, they probably have made themselves the NL West favorite, especially if they now add Mike Leake.
I think the Cubs are the best team in baseball now though. They're pretty much strong everywhere. I think catching might be their weakness, and Miguel Montero isn't bad. They also have David Ross as a right-handed hitting complement to the lefty-swinging Montero.
They have a rotation of Arrieta, Lester, Lackey, Hamel and Hendricks. Their bullpen features Rlndon, Strop, Warren and Wood.
Their infield is made up of Rizzo, Zobrist, Russell and Bryant. The outfield is Soler, Heyward and Schwarber. In Javier Baez and Chris Coghlan, they have two players good enough to start for many teams. Baez in particular has been rated as high as the #4 overall prospect entering 2014.
In other words, the Cubs are loaded. And most of their players are young. It's been 107 years, but the Cubs are building to where they could have a shot soon.
The competition in the National League is steepening.
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Post by Islandboagie on Dec 13, 2015 2:35:55 GMT -5
Rog- I think the Cubs are the best team in baseball now though.
Boagie- The Royals are still the best team in baseball.
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Post by Rog on Dec 13, 2015 3:45:48 GMT -5
Boagie- The Royals are still the best team in baseball. Rog -- I understand your point, but they probably weren't the best team in baseball last season, even as they won the World Series. They were very good though. They're losing some key free agents, so I don't know what their prognosis is for the 2016 season. They could be a team that again illustrates how tough it is to stay on top. Hey, even the Warriors lost tonight. It was those darn 24-1 shirts the Bucks' fans were wearing! Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3157/another-day-more#ixzz3uBkQ5CFq |
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 13, 2015 9:14:47 GMT -5
The Cubs on paper are the best team in baseball. The DBacks on paper are the best team in the NL west. Means nothing till the games are played. All the things you guys are saying are exactly what you said last year about the Padres. Did we learn nothing? When did Shelby Miller become an elite pitcher? Greinke IS elite, but Shelby Miller? And BOTH become less effective now, pitching their homes games in such a hitter friendly ballpark. And Boly, you say you wouldn't give up that package for Carrasco, yet you laud the DBacks for giving up a similar one for Shelby. That doesn't jibe. And once again, the Giants aren't done (fortunately) and neither are the Dodgers. (Unfortunately) Can we let the dust settle before we shovel it over the 2016 Giants?
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 13, 2015 10:45:30 GMT -5
Mark-And Boly, you say you wouldn't give up that package for Carrasco, yet you laud the DBacks for giving up a similar one for Shelby. That doesn't jibe.
***boly says*** It does jibe to me, Mark.
I simply do not think that highly of Inciarte, or however you spell his name. Panik is more valuable to ME, because he's a second baseman; because of the way he plays the game; because middle infielders who can HIT are harder to find that outfielders that can hit.
And they also gave up minor leaguers. When have you heard me adamant about NOT giving up minor leaguers?
You haven't, and to me, that's all the difference in the world.
Remember, just a week ago I was MORE THAN WILLING to package Arroyo and Fox in a deal.
As to Miller, I never said they DIDN'T pay too much. I was simply commenting on what a good, solid pitcher he is.
and he is.
I said # 3 guy, not number one, so I never compared him to Greinke.
boly
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Post by Rog on Dec 13, 2015 11:52:00 GMT -5
Can we let the dust settle before we shovel it over the 2016 Giants? Rog -- Great line, Mark. As for comparing the Cubs or Diamondbacks to last year's Padres, we clearly pointed out here all the difficulties with the Padres' infield and with their fielding overall. The Cubs and Diamondbacks have HITTERS, and they have significantly improved their pitching -- especially the Diamondbacks. Your main point about not shoveling dust on the Giants before it settles is the key one. But I guess there will always be great gnashing of teeth here. Some seem to live for it. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3157/another-day-more#ixzz3uDiaiKRn |
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Post by Rog on Dec 13, 2015 12:14:58 GMT -5
I simply do not think that highly of Inciarte, or however you spell his name. Panik is more valuable to ME, because he's a second baseman; because of the way he plays the game; because middle infielders who can HIT are harder to find that outfielders that can hit. And they also gave up minor leaguers. When have you heard me adamant about NOT giving up minor leaguers? You haven't, and to me, that's all the difference in the world. Remember, just a week ago I was MORE THAN WILLING to package Arroyo and Fox in a deal. As to Miller, I never said they DIDN'T pay too much. I was simply commenting on what a good, solid pitcher he is. and he is. I said # 3 guy, not number one, Rog -- Ender Inciarte isn't close to being a star, but he does have a .292 career average in over 1000 plate appearances. He's a capable fielder who can play all three outfield positions. He has stolen 40 bases in two seasons while being caught only a highly acceptable 13 times. He strikes out about as often as Joe Panik. In short, the Giants could use him. As for your being OK with giving up minor leaguers, how would the Giants look if they had traded Joe Panik and Matt Duffy? The Giants might benefit from hanging on to Arroyo and Fox until they're much closer to the major leagues. The prospects that have the most trade value are not surprisingly the ones who are ready or nearly ready to play in the majors. I'm with you that in the right deal I would trade these infielders, but we should also recognize the risks involved. Let's not forget that while the Giants' infield is full now, there has been talk about moving Arroyo to left field and Fox to center. Bobby Evans seems to be pleased with how the trade market is going. Given the high price in prospects for proven major league talent, I'm a little surprised by that. But the Giants do seem to have more prospect talent to trade than in recent years. The beauty in free agents is that a team doesn't have to give up existing players to acquire them. The beauty in trades is that they can sometimes provide cost-controlled players who then allow teams the money to go out and sign free agents. It appears the Giants are searching for that balance. Before we become too vociferous in our criticism of Bobby Evans and company, let's not forget that a year ago we would have been pretty happy if the Giants had signed Pablo Sandoval, Jon Lester, James Shields or even Yasmani Tomas. With the possible exception of Lester, those deals don't look so good now, do they? Given that we ourselves aren't able to evaluate players as well as we would like to be able to, isn't it wrong to go crazy about the Giants' lack of moves before they are even done with them? Probably the smartest move on our parts would be to ignore these guys (as hard as it is to do so), at least until the Giants are done. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3157/another-day-more?page=1#ixzz3uDjmfMfY |
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Post by Rog on Dec 13, 2015 12:26:01 GMT -5
I said # 3 guy, not number one, Rog -- I'm with Boly here. Miller has a 3.22 career ERA. I do see though that the Steamer projection for Miller has him at a 4.09 ERA in 2016. I'm not sure where that comes from, other than his artificially low home run rate in 2015. I wish the Giants had him, but he doesn't have the same control Jeff Samardzija has. I'd rather have him than Jeff though. I'd like to have Maeda and acquire a cost-controlled center fielder in trade. I'd like the suspense of which players the Giants will acquire to end. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3157/another-day-more?page=1#ixzz3uDpXepGv |
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Post by Islandboagie on Dec 19, 2015 1:43:35 GMT -5
Shelby Miller will probably shit the bed next year, and that trade will be one of the worst in recent history.
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 19, 2015 11:44:49 GMT -5
Rog: You LIKE the suspense? Seriously, call my secretary for a psychological counselling appointment. I think we can squeeze you in before Christmas  boly |
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Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2015 15:17:53 GMT -5
Remember, just a week ago I was MORE THAN WILLING to package Arroyo and Fox in a deal. Rog -- The primary problem with both Arroyo and especially Fox is that they're probably not particularly close to making the big leagues, nor are they (particularly Fox) top 10 or top 20 major league prospects. They certainly have value, but look at what the Braves got for Miller and the Phillies got for Giles. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3157/another-day-more#ixzz3une6SvfS |
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Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2015 15:19:45 GMT -5
Rog: You LIKE the suspense?
Well, it certainly keeps me sharp. But I said I would like it to end.
The other side is that once it ends, the suspense will be waiting for the season to start, which will be just about as tough.
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