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Post by rxmeister on Dec 5, 2015 13:31:03 GMT -5
Five years 90 million. I have no problem with this signing, although we all know he's coming off a terrible season. He would have gotten it elsewhere and his stuff is off the charts. Hopefully Rags will work his magic
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sfgdood
Long time member 
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 5, 2015 13:58:31 GMT -5
this doesn't improve my mood...it only confirms my opinion of the Giants' plan being to go cheap all along
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Post by Rog on Dec 5, 2015 16:11:05 GMT -5
this doesn't improve my mood...it only confirms my opinion of the Giants' plan being to go cheap all along Rog -- This is what drives me nuts about you, Randy. Every indication is that the Giants WEREN'T cheap when it came to Pablo Sandoval, Jon Lester, James Shields and now Zack Greinke. Greinke simply got a crazy contract. Which likely makes the Diamondbacks a lot better than you think they are. Let's get right to the point, Randy. What have you seen that makes you think the Giants were cheap with any of the four players I mentioned? If you saw anything at all, you're looking at mirages. Here is what we know or would estimate the Giants offered for that quartet: Sandoval -- 5/$95, the same amount he signed for. The Giants were even said to be willing to go 5/$100. Lester -- 6/$156, the same amount Jon signed for. The Giants are even said to have offered or been willing to offer $168 million (presumably on a 7-year deal). Shields -- 4/$80, five million more than James ultimately signed for. Greinke (just an educated guess) -- 5/$165. That's about $500 million offered to four players. How is that being cheap? Please be honest in your answer here. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3153/giants-sign-jeff-samardzija#ixzz3tTygdzMZ |
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Post by Rog on Dec 5, 2015 16:12:06 GMT -5
By the way, it doesn't improve my mood either.
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 5, 2015 17:18:02 GMT -5
5/90 this is certainly a bargain basement signing. I don't get you either Randy. Even the Dodgers thought Greinke's price tag was outrageous. This is a high end signing. Would I have preferred Greinke, Zimmerman or Cueto? Yeah, but Shark was high on my list too. And they're not done yet. Ben Zobrist is meeting with the Giants, and while I really like him, he doesn't fit my definition of power hitting left fielder
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 5, 2015 17:56:04 GMT -5
I can live with Jeffy... IF... IF we can also sign Leake.
I can LIVE with it... I didn't say I liked it.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, Mark, but wasn't Jason Schmidt just a "so-so, no big deal" guy until he got with the Giants?
And immediately, almost, he became a stud.
With Pittsburgh from 1997-2001, his ERA was NEVER lower than 4.07.
Mark could be right. Righetti might just be what Jeffy needs. Not to mention our ballpark.
He's NOT my first choice, and like Randy says, I think they went on the cheap AGAIN... but this could work out.
boly
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 5, 2015 18:41:51 GMT -5
They supposedly offered Greinke close to 35 million a season and you accuse them of going cheap? I think they'll sign Leake, but to me the offseason won't be a success unless they add a quality LF too
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 5, 2015 22:58:13 GMT -5
If they offered that much, Mark, why sign with a team that plays in a hitter's ballpark?
I question just how much they DID offer.
And IF the only hold out was years... then I'll take back my statement.
but until then...
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on Dec 5, 2015 23:44:26 GMT -5
Mark- I think they'll sign Leake, but to me the offseason won't be a success unless they add a quality LF too
Boagie- I might be crazy, but I don't think Leake is much of an upgrade over Heston. Signing him would just be wasting money. Also, if they were going to resign him, they would have done so before Samardzija. You might be right though, I'm merely speculating.
As far as how successful this off-season is, I think it's hard to tell how successful it is until October. Samardzija could fall flat on his face.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 6, 2015 2:04:19 GMT -5
It's obvious to everyone with a brain that ONLY a top tier starter was going to get the job done. The Giants failed. 5/90 IS cheap compared to what a top tier pitcher is getting. I have my doubts whether Sa-whats-his-name even rates being called a 2nd tier pitcher. This is yet another offseason debacle. The only thing more frustrating than years of WS futility is watching the dynasty being systematically destroyed by inept front office moves.
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Post by Rog on Dec 6, 2015 10:26:26 GMT -5
If they offered that much, Mark, why sign with a team that plays in a hitter's ballpark? I question just how much they DID offer. Rog -- Greinke likely thought $206.5 million was a nice bid for his services. Although the Dodgers were said to be prepared to bid $210 million, I doubt very much that they did -- or Zack would likely still be a Dodger. We don't know how much the Giants offered, but we can be pretty sure they offered a lot. I'm guessing something like 5/$160. That's not exactly cheap, is it? The deal was supposed to come down to the Dodgers and Giants, so we can be almost certain that both teams were bidding high. Just not as ridiculously high as the Diamondbacks did. The Diamondbacks may have felt buoyed by their recent TV contract, which is being estimated as high as $1.5 million. Greinke may also have liked the idea of going to an up-and-coming team whose offense is strong but which badly needed starting pitching. Something said by Dan O'Dowd, former manager of the Rockies, might apply here. O'Dowd said this weekend that one shouldn't fall in love with a player, since then he may be guilty of looking at information that supports the player rather than looking at the evidence objectively. Maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but you and Randy seem to look at everything that happens to the Giants with regard to player acquisition as being just cheap lies. I know both you and I are exhausted by this and likely don't need to go further with it, but neither you nor Randy can quite seem to put your finger on what the statement was where the Giants lied to us. Now you say you question just how much the Giants DID offer Greinke, when all the evidence seems to point to that offer's being a lot. It seems as if you guys are looking for evidence -- or even a lack of evidence that causes you to question -- that supports your position. There is no evidence I have seen that indicates the Giants have been cheap either of the past two off-seasons. In fact, the available evidence indicates the opposite. Of COURSE we're disappointed with the results of the past two off-seasons thus far. I didn't like not accepting Nori Aoki's option, and I didn't like the signing of Jeff Samardzija. But if the Giants were being cheap, wouldn't they have jumped all over Aoki's net $4.7 million option? Isn't $4.7 million darn cheap -- or at least inexpensive -- for a starting left fielder who gets on base, can steal, and can field a little? As for Samardzija, it isn't anywhere near the amounts Price or Greinke got. But it quite possibly will be the biggest pitching contract of any pitcher outside the big four free agent starters. $90 million is NOT cheap. Nor is having the 4th-highest payroll and getting into the luxury tax, as were the case last season. If you want cheap, I could give you about 20 teams who are -- at least in a relative sense. The Giants aren't among them. Not even close. Do you guys realize the biggest reason for big jumps in spending has been the signing of huge TV contracts? That was the case with the Dodgers and now with the Diamondbacks, as well as other teams. The Giants haven't had that recent boost. The Giants do sell out every game, or at least come close, but do you realize that right now you can get a ticket for $8? You can run down to Costco and get two lower box seats for something like $38.50. Unless you consider spending into the luxury tax to be cheap, there is no indication that Giants are being so. Didn't I just point out that in the past two winters they have offered something like $500 million to Sandoval, Lester, Shields and Greinke? There have been six top pitchers out there the past two winters, and the Giants have offered about $400 million to three of them. When we look at the facts objectively, there is no reason to think the Giants are being cheap. No reason at all. As for paying $206 million to Greinke, that's a LOT of money. To earn that, Zack needs to provide about 25 wins added over the next six years. That's just over four per season. According to Fan Graphs, he has provided 27 over the past six seasons. Baseball-Reference also has Zack at 27 Wins Above Replacement. And those were most of Zack's prime seasons. The next six will be mostly in his decline years. Chances are above-average that Zack's contract won't work out particularly well. If I were to criticize the Giants the past two winters, it would be for offering too MUCH for their top targets, not too little. Anyway, I am willing to be convinced. I don't like what the Giants have done so far this off-season, so I'd just LOVE to have as much to argue against it as I can. But I need objective evidence to do so. Can you guys help me with that? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3153/giants-sign-jeff-samardzija#ixzz3tYJtlcPM |
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 6, 2015 16:10:09 GMT -5
Objective evidence, Rog? Seriously?
Here's the evidence:
We came up short for;
Lester, Shields, Price, Zimmerman, Greinke.
We're 0 for 5!
How much more evidence do you want?
As I said in another thread.
Failure is failure, and this management group has FAILED and FAILED, and then FAILED again!
The reasons why don't matter.
They simply don't.
And even if we DO somehow win the division, it will NOT change my mind about our front office AT THIS POINT IN TIME.
Now, turn around and sign Cueto and/or Leake, and THEN and ONLY then will I sing a different tune.
boly
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Post by Rog on Dec 7, 2015 2:30:12 GMT -5
I don't think Leake is much of an upgrade over Heston Rog -- You could be right. Or the true Chris Heston may be the one we saw in the season's second half (4.91 ERA). Or the Heston who pitched in the minors (4.24 ERA). By comparison, Mike Leake's innings pitched and ERA's have varied from 192 to 214 innings pitched and 3.37 to 3.70 over the past three seasons. There might be other free agent or trade choices who could work out even better than Leake. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3153/giants-sign-jeff-samardzija#ixzz3tcLlKJJz |
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Post by Rog on Dec 7, 2015 2:35:30 GMT -5
Objective evidence, Rog? Seriously? Here's the evidence: We came up short for; Lester, Shields, Price, Zimmerman, Greinke. We're 0 for 5! How much more evidence do you want? Rog -- That depends on the question. Wasn't it whether they were being cheap, including questioning how much they really did offer for Greinke? If I misunderstood the question, and it really was how have the Giants fared in signing the top free agent pitchers the past two winters, I think your evidence is quite strong. In fact, it's unanimous. But wasn't it cheapness we were talking about? The evidence there suggests they have been about $500 million from cheap. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3153/giants-sign-jeff-samardzija?page=1#ixzz3tcNXG6iy |
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Post by Rog on Dec 7, 2015 2:41:43 GMT -5
Failure is failure, and this management group has FAILED and FAILED, and then FAILED again! Rog -- You're absolutely right. And the other three years they were World Champions and then World Champions and then World Champions again. This is harsh, but if you guys don't appreciate the past six years, you are ungracious and don't deserve as good as we have gotten. You argue that the Giants have been cheap, but in reality they have outspent all but a very few teams. Why don't we go back to all the years before 2010, the years when it was either close but no cigar, or far more often, not even close? I don't know about you guys, but if someone had guaranteed me in 2009 that the Giants would win three World Series in the next six years, I would have been a very, very happy man. Is it at all possible the Giants have a clue about what they're doing? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3153/giants-sign-jeff-samardzija?page=1#ixzz3tcOTMPXI |
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 7, 2015 2:49:19 GMT -5
ok here's a question...if I set the over/under at 1 world series win the next 6 years, which would you bet your house on?
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Post by Rog on Dec 7, 2015 2:49:22 GMT -5
Now, turn around and sign Cueto and/or Leake, and THEN and ONLY then will I sing a different tune. Rog -- I'm getting a bad feeling about Leake, and I don't think they're after Cueto. Perhaps they're concerned about Johnny's arm health. I do think they'll sign or trade for someone who is roughly in the same class as Leake. I want Jason Heyward, so I'm not likely to be happy with what the Giants do this winter. But that doesn't mean I'll think they don't know what they're doing. I'm already wondering if I have been wrong about Samardzija. I mentioned that perhaps Righetti could straighten him out. Bobby Evans mentioned a mechanical change or two, so apparently that is what the Giants are thinking. I'm worried about the significant drop in Jeff's strikeout rate, but clearly the Giants were pretty high on Jeff. And they likely know better than I. Regardless of the results, one thing that has become rather clear is that they haven't been cheap. Remember, based on the best information we have available to us, they have offered something like $500 million to Sandoval, Lester, Shields and Greinke. How is that being cheap? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3153/giants-sign-jeff-samardzija?page=1#ixzz3tcQEwpsF |
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Post by Rog on Dec 7, 2015 2:52:47 GMT -5
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Post by Rog on Dec 7, 2015 2:56:20 GMT -5
By the way, Randy, your question was a red herring.
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