No joy in Mudville

[sfgdood]

I'm just flat out DISGUSTED with the lack of vision and urgency this front office has shown. Now we're in a basically no-win situation. We've lost out on 3 of the 4 top tier pitchers and the 4th seems a long shot. Maybe this was the plan all along...try to make it SEEM as though they wanted Greinke but with no true desire to close the deal, and then revert to the "fall back" plan (or as I call it the "real plan A") which is to go cheap with 2nd and 3rd tier FA starters.

By the way, I lost a lot of respect for Greinke too. He took the money and ran to the team with NONE chance to win anything. What a prick.

[Rog]

I hold the Giants and Greinke in far higher respect than you, Randy.

I also think that the Giants would benefit from heading in the direction of Jason Heyward. I'm not excited about overpaying for Jeff Samardzija, although if they do so, I'll hope it is because Dave Righetti can tap his potential, which would likely make the deal a good one.

The Giants might be able to get in on Mike Leake at a fair price, since their primary competition for Mike was expected to be Arizona. There are other 2nd-tier and mid-tier guys I like, although some of them are already gone.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Giants move fairly quickly now, and I wouldn't be surprised if they make a trade next week. Here's something that just popped into my head. Maybe it would be worth going after getting Zack Wheeler back. The Mets aren't exactly hurting for pitching without him.

What the free agent market is showing us more and more is how important it is to develop one's own prospects and trade well. It is reinforcing the value of having players under team control who aren't yet eligible for free agency and thus are much more affordable.

[Rog]

Saying Greinke is a prick for going to a team that has NONE chance of winning anything is wrong on two counts:

First, what makes you think a guy is a prick for making the choice that he feels is best for him, regardless of what you think? Would you be a prick if you made a choice he doesn't agree with? Well, at least not for that reason you wouldn't be.

Second, what makes you think the Diamondbacks don't have a chance to win anything? The Diamondbacks are on the rise, and they just signed a $1 billion-plus TV contract. They are trying to be cautious with their money, but clearly they're not hoarding it. Is it possible that in signing a six-year contract with an organization on the rise, Greinke is being more far-sighted than you?

By the way, continue to call the Giants' fallback plan the real "Plan A" if you want. If one looks back, we can see that one gets far closer to the truth by disagreeing with you than by agreeing.

Or do you still think the Giants should have put their faith in Gary Brown and Pablo Sandoval? Everybody makes mistakes, so if those were even close to being the only two, I would let it slide. But since you seem to try to make up for lack of acumen with bluster and rudeness, I've got to simply tell the truth.

[klaiggeb]

Randy Maybe this was the plan all along...try to make it SEEM as though they wanted Greinke but with no true desire to close the deal, and then revert to the "fall back" plan (or as I call it the "real plan A") which is to go cheap with 2nd and 3rd tier FA starters.


****boly says****

Randy, isn't that PRECISELY what I've been saying since last year? that they NEVER had a true desire to close the deal?

If I've said that once, I've said it a hundred times... but almost everyone here disagreed with me. It was all rhetoric.

Now we've lost out, for WHAT-EVER-REASON to:

Lester
Shields
Price
Zimmerman
Greinke.

Frankly, not landing even ONE of those guys stuns me. I mean STUNS me!

If we REALLY made solid efforts to land those guys, one would think that at least ONE of them would have signed.

Only none did.

Boagie suggested it clearly wasn't money.

Maybe it was. Maybe it was money, or money and years, all along and we didn't offer enough.


I'm leaning towards Randy's idea on this one; That the REAL plan A, to NOT sign a top tier arm, was the plan right from the start.

That everything else was rhetoric to pacify the fans.


You can all say what you want, give all of the reasons you want on WHY we didn't get even one of those guys.

The fact is, we didn't.

I can't swear at Greinke no more than I can swear at any other professional athlete; they follow the money, plain and simple.

When we're talking THOSE KINDS OF MILLIONS, it's all about ego, and nothing more.


Disgusted? Yeah, I'm disgusted... by our front office.


Were we deceived by their intentions... AGAIN, or was it something else?

Hard to believe that "something else" was one year.

boly

[sfgdood]

It's one of two things Boly...either the Giants are delivering lip service to us as you suggest, or they are completely ignorant of the cost of business on the FA market.

Frankly, I don't know which is worse.

[sfgdood]

First, what makes you think a guy is a prick for making the choice that he feels is best for him, regardless of what you think? Would you be a prick if you made a choice he doesn't agree with? Well, at least not for that reason you wouldn't be.

Dood - I can think of dozens of reasons YOU are equal or greater in prickdom than Greinke





Second, what makes you think the Diamondbacks don't have a chance to win anything? The Diamondbacks are on the rise, and they just signed a $1 billion-plus TV contract. They are trying to be cautious with their money, but clearly they're not hoarding it. Is it possible that in signing a six-year contract with an organization on the rise, Greinke is being more far-sighted than you?

Dood - oh let me see...it could be that the Giants have won 3 WS titles in 6 years...and the Dodgers have won 3 straight division titles. Meanwhile the Dbacks have won nada. Clearly the balance is changing due to this signing and the Giants' FA failure but if Greinke had chosen one of the better franchises, the Dbacks wouldn't even be considered a 3rd place contender.





By the way, continue to call the Giants' fallback plan the real "Plan A" if you want. If one looks back, we can see that one gets far closer to the truth by disagreeing with you than by agreeing.

Dood - Considering I disagree with you frequently, this is hardly an impartial or unexpected piece of blather.





Or do you still think the Giants should have put their faith in Gary Brown and Pablo Sandoval? Everybody makes mistakes, so if those were even close to being the only two, I would let it slide. But since you seem to try to make up for lack of acumen with bluster and rudeness, I've got to simply tell the truth.

Dood - Until you show me proof of your touting Matt Duffy as an everyday 3rd baseman, I will answer the Pablo question as I always do...he's a LOT better than DP McGehee and he wouldn't have cost us two pitching prospects. As to Brown, I'm disappointed he hasn't risen to the level his talent should have foretold. Then again considering the fall of Pagan and the failure of Juan Perez and Daniel Carbonnel, it wouldn't have been the worst thing to hold on to Gary's rights.

[Rog]

it could be that the Giants have won 3 WS titles in 6 years...and the Dodgers have won 3 straight division titles. Meanwhile the Dbacks have won nada. Clearly the balance is changing due to this signing and the Giants' FA failure but if Greinke had chosen one of the better franchises, the Dbacks wouldn't even be considered a 3rd place contender.


Rog -- You're driving in the rear view mirror, and you're wrong. You should have used that rear view mirror to at least have realized the Diamondbacks finished 3rd in the NL West this past year, five games behind the Giants, and with two more wins would have been a .500 team. This team that you say wouldn't have even been considered a 3rd place contender actually finished five games ahead of the 4th-place Padres and 11 games on top of the 5th-place Padres.

I apologize for being so hard on you, Randy, but far too often you don't seem to want to be bothered with the facts. Make better arguments, and I'll respect you a lot more. Meanwhile, I'll work harder on trying to forgive you.

I guess in the long run, I do forgive you. It's not like you're torturing and murdering. But I do get frustrated when someone has the tools to make good decisions and yet obstinately makes bad ones. I need to improve on that.




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[Rog]

By the way, continue to call the Giants' fallback plan the real "Plan A" if you want. If one looks back, we can see that one gets far closer to the truth by disagreeing with you than by agreeing.

Dood - Considering I disagree with you frequently, this is hardly an impartial or unexpected piece of blather.


Rog -- While I should be more forgiving, I do try hard to remain objective with regard to what you say. I would appreciate it if you would do less shooting from the hip.

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[Rog]

Until you show me proof of your touting Matt Duffy as an everyday 3rd baseman, I will answer the Pablo question as I always do...he's a LOT better than DP McGehee and he wouldn't have cost us two pitching prospects.


Rog -- I didn't tout Duffy as the Giants' third baseman. I believe Boagie and perhaps Boly did. (Maybe you too.) But in order to answer the Pablo question, perhaps we should look at the net costs of signing Pablo.

The cost would have been a net $90 million (Pablo's $95 million less McGehee's $5 mill). The cost in players would have been to save the two pitching prospects dealt for Casey but lose out on the #31 overall draft pick.

The two players traded were 24-year-old Kendrys Flores and 22-year-old Luis Castillo.

I would say Flores established himself as a good prospect last season, moving all the way from San Jose in 2014 (where he posted a 4.09 ERA) to a September stint with the Marlins last season. He got knocked around for a 4.97 ERA in 12.2 innings for the Marlins, but I would say he's probably a top 10 prospect. Certainly top 20.

Castillo pitched decently in Low A and High A and likely isn't a top 20 prospect for the Marlins. If he is, it would be close to the bottom.

The #31 overall draft pick Chris Shaw the Giants received as compensation for Pablo hit a homer every 15 at bats at short-season Salem-Keizer. He batted .287 with a .911 OPS.

I don't have enough information to rate the prospects accurately, but I would give the two pitchers a slight advantage over Shaw, despite the impressive power he showed. Shaw is a poor fielder, even at first base.

In summary, the Giants saved $90 million dollars and perhaps gave up a small amount of prospect value.

With the added information, would you care to revise your opinion -- or would you prefer to remain obstinate and non-objective? I'm trying to grow here, and I hope you're trying to, as well.




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