still concussed

[sfgdood]

it's beginning to look like the Giants now have waited too long to get any value for Brandon "defective cranium" Belt. His concussion symptoms persist months after his last re-injury. He's damaged goods now officially.

[Rog]

The Giants still expect him back for Spring Training, although what are they going to say -- the guy will never play again. If the Giants did indeed wait too long to get value for Brandon -- who would indeed be their first baseman if healthy -- it wasn't something that could be predicted.

I'm sorry to say it, but the guy who may be most to blame for this is Marco Scutaro. He is the guy who gave Brandon his concussion in 2014, hitting him in the head when two balls were thrown at Brandon from different angles during batting practice.

[Islandboagie]

Scutaro hitting Belt in the head also enabled Travis Ishikawa to join the team and hit the walk off against St. Louis. Thanks Marco!

[Rog]

Scutaro hitting Belt in the head also enabled Travis Ishikawa to join the team and hit the walk off against St. Louis. Thanks Marco!


Rog -- Good point. For the most part Travis was just holding down left field in the postseason, but he did a good enough job, with the walk off as a big highlight. Who would ever have thought that Brandon's injury would ultimately lead to Travis's playing left field, and that despite criticism here, Travis would get the job done well enough.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3116/concussed#ixzz3quHNfKuz

[sfgdood]

Travis was no savior...he got the big hit for sure but does anybody really believe the Giants lose that series without him? His influence really is overrated

[rxmeister]

Ishi had the bases clearing double in game three of that series as well and that game we would have definitely lost without him. By the way, referring to Brandon Belt as "defective cranium" is a hundred times worse than when we point out that Pablo Sandoval is a fat bastard stealing money from the Red Sox, yet whenever we do you get your panties in a bunch. Hypocrite much?

[Islandboagie]

Randy hates Ishikawa, he has for a long time now. He'll never objectively look at anything Travis did for the Giants.

I remember the bases clearing double, I was actually rather surprised at the time that Ishikawa didn't win the MVP of the NLCS.

[Rog]

Travis was no savior...he got the big hit for sure but does anybody really believe the Giants lose that series without him?


Rog -- There is no way to know. Travis was put into a very difficult position though, and he was adequate. I suspect he met the Giants' expectations. He certainly met mine.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3116/concussed#ixzz3r1iQiHA9

[sfgdood]

Ishi had the bases clearing double in game three of that series as well and that game we would have definitely lost without him.

Dood - One game in a 4-1 romp means very little...but believe what you will.




By the way, referring to Brandon Belt as "defective cranium" is a hundred times worse than when we point out that Pablo Sandoval is a fat bastard stealing money from the Red Sox, yet whenever we do you get your panties in a bunch. Hypocrite much?

Dood - defective cranium was a reference to the concussions, not to his mental lapses on the field. And just to clarify...when you show classlessness in referring to someone as a "fat bastard" who contributed to our THREE championships (far more than Travis contributed to any of the three), it doesn't faze me in the least. It says more about yourselves, IMO. The part that galls me is that you disregard Pablo's contributions while glorifying Ish.

[Islandboagie]

Ishi had the bases clearing double in game three of that series as well and that game we would have definitely lost without him.

Dood - One game in a 4-1 romp means very little...but believe what you will.

Boagie- having the big hit to make an impact on a post-season game doesn't mean very little, it's big. And Travis did it twice that series. I still don't understand how any Giant fan could have a problem with Ishikawa.

[Rog]

defective cranium was a reference to the concussions, not to his mental lapses on the field.


Rog -- So it would be an injured cranium, not a defective one?




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3116/concussed#ixzz3r5xsQZ00

[Rog]

One game in a 4-1 romp means very little...but believe what you will.


Rog -- I thought the point was that Travis didn't play badly enough to keep the team from winning. When you throw a player into a new position with almost no training and experience, you're mostly hoping control, aren't you?

If someone had told you the Giants were going to give Travis Ishikawa three games in left field in the regular season and then make him their starting left fielder in the postseason, wouldn't your first thought be that you hoped he wouldn't make an outfield mistake that would kill you? And might not your second be that a journeyman who couldn't make the major leagues a few months before would hit well enough not to slow the lineup down too badly?




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3116/concussed?page=1#ixzz3r5yIKG4n

[rxmeister]

Don't you think it's easier to appreciate a player who doesn't have that much talent yet works really hard and gets the most of what he has, as opposed to someone who has all the talent in the world but his idea of a workout is walking to Carl Jr's? I think that's why we all like Ishi (except you) and don't worship at the throne of Pablo Sandoval. (except you)

[Islandboagie]

Dood - defective cranium was a reference to the concussions, not to his mental lapses on the field. And just to clarify...when you show classlessness in referring to someone as a "fat bastard" who contributed to our THREE championships (far more than Travis contributed to any of the three), it doesn't faze me in the least. It says more about yourselves, IMO. The part that galls me is that you disregard Pablo's contributions while glorifying Ish.

Boagie- Nobody was comparing Ishikawa to Sandoval, you can calm down. Mark just mentioned that your comment about Brandon is just as bad if not worse than calling Pablo fat. When you consider Belt's condition is capable of ending his career early, I'd have to agree with Mark that it is worse.

As for Ishi, I have to wonder where your dislike for him comes from.

I remember our first discussion about Ishikawa. Back in early 2011, when they were playing Huff in RF and Belt at first, I was wondering why Ishikawa or Schierholtz wasn't getting the playing time over a guy that barely had any time in AAA. To this day I still think it was a mistake. But for whatever reason now, everytime Ishikawa is mentioned, you have to pit him against one of your favorite Giants.

How about just appreciate what he's done? I never said Ishikawa was an All-Star, nobody did. I can recognize the good and bad side of Ishikawa.

I appreciate Pablo's 3 homerun game. I appreciate the double to tie the game against the Nats. I recognize the good parts of Pablo, while not ignoring the bad part as well. Pablo does struggle with his weight, obviously. And he also showed very little class when he parted ways with the Giants. Those are things as Giants fans we shouldn't ignore, just like we shouldn't forget the first game of the 2012 World Series.

[sfgdood]

you put it nearly perfectly Boagie, except for limiting Pablo's contributions to only postseason highlights (this is the evil of the media these days, only concentrating on a few moments rather than the totality) and my "dislike" for Ish. I actually do like the guy. I just happen to think he's like a lot of guys who popped up in the postseason when not contributing much if anything during the regular season and then get glorified by the media as a darling. Mark Lemke comes to mind, although Mark had a much more consistent career than Ish. When I see the comparisons to Bobby Thomson, it kind of makes me ill. The way the inning was set up, and the way Wacha was throwing, the Giants were GOING to win in that 9th inning, regardless of who got the big hit. The "walk off HR" is so glorified these days that the fact that Ish hit one was somehow more exciting to most, and more hyped up by the media, than a single...which would have been no less a game and series clincher.

I totally get the Pablo hate here...he DID show little character in his departure and his personal eating habits have obviously been a source of frustration and tension over the years. I admittedly have more affection for him even now because I have been a huge fan of his play since I watched him mature--a baseball term--as a San Jose Giant, up close and personal at Muni Stadium. But in a general sense, it takes two to Tango, two to start a relationship and two to end one. I don't absolve the Giants from their role in the split while fully acknowledging Pablo's missteps.

Maybe some here hold on to the bitterness of the departure but I don't. I remember ALL his joyous moments as a Giant, even in the lean early years. I wanted him back over McGehee but I would have been less bitter if a better option was the plan B. Obviously things worked out fantastically in a long term sense, though rather fortuitously, with the emergence of Duffy as a 3rd baseman. But since lots of games got wasted in the early going, it's hard for me to believe that the team would have been worse off, record-wise, if Pablo was the starter from Opening Day 2015.

Be that as it may, the contributions of ANY Giant that was a part of all 3 titles will never be lost on me. Even if those contributions were not huge (no pun intended). To me, Pablo's contributions were larger to all 3 than all but Posey and maybe Bumgarner. But then, I don't discount regular season production, even if it wasn't up to previous levels.

[Rog]

I totally get the Pablo hate here.


Rog -- Apparently you don't, since there is no hatred of Pablo here. I think most of us like Pablo; he simply wasn't a good player last season, as some here predicted -- although we were more worried about the END of his contract than his beginning.

[Rog]

Maybe some here hold on to the bitterness of the departure but I don't.


Rog -- Me either. I really liked Pablo when he played for the Giants. One of the most fun players around. But given his contract demands, he did the Giants a favor by leaving. If we're going to criticize the Giants for last winter, it probably shouldn't be for not signing one of the Big Three, but for making Pablo their #1 target.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3116/concussed?page=1#ixzz3r7bhPVnE

[klaiggeb]

For the record, I don't hate Pablo. I never did.

What I HATE is the fact that he deceived SF fans. That's hate of his actions, not him.


He never, ever blossomed into the player he could have been, power wise, nor RBI wise, and I contend that it was his weight and ego that were the primary causes.


Ishi didn't have that natural talent and busted his FANNY to be as decent as he was.

Thus, Mark's comments for me, anyway, were right on the button.

boly

[rxmeister]

I was never an advocate of paying Pablo 5/95 or more, so why would I be bitter about him leaving? In fact I remember telling some Red Sox fans that I'll be rooting for their team to win the AL now that they had him. It was everything that happened afterwards that turned me against him. When a beloved player leaves via free agency, they rarely bash the team they're leaving. They talk about their great experience there, their love for the fans, and often take out full page ads thanking everyone. Pablo chose to do the opposite. He talked about disrespect, he changed his phone number so his ex teammates couldn't reach him, he pretty much burned his bridges. The one thing I'll give him credit for is that he seemed to soften his tone as the year went on, and even got his ring in a nice moment with the organization. I'm thinking he now realizes he made a mistake with the way he handled it, and the fans in SF are way more forgiving than the ones in Boston, who don't think he's all cute and cuddly as he helped contribute to a last place finish. Pretty sure he'll continue to make amends, and when be does I'll become a fan again. I still know that the Giants dodged a bullet with him leaving though. Imagine having 20 million less to work with this offseason because he was still here, considering the year he had.

[Rog]

Thinking back on the Pablo situation, I wonder what the Giants would have done had they signed him.

These are the things that might not have happened:

. The Giants would have saved the $5 million they wasted on Casey McGehee.

. They might not have re-signed Sergio Romo, which would have saved them $6 million last season and $9 million this year.

. They probably wouldn't have been able to trade for Mike Leake. That would have saved them $3 million.

. They probably wouldn't have been able to trade for Alejandro De Aza. That would have saved them $1 million.


To be honest, that wouldn't have been all that bad -- not the way the season turned out. They would have saved back $15 million of the $19 million they saved by not signing Pablo. So far, so good.

But if they hadn't sustained the injuries they did and Matt Cain had been able to come back decently, it might well have cost them the NL West. It could have even cost them a fourth ring. We would still be criticizing them for not signing "the" starter they needed.

With the injuries they suffered and without Matt Duffy in the lineup, they would have been mathematically eliminated much earlier than they were, meaning a rather bland season instead of one that gave us excitement up until the final week or so of the season.

So where would that leave them now?

Well, for one thing, they likely wouldn't have much chance of signing Mike Leake, who likely would be headed to the Diamondbacks, which might happen anyway.

For another, they would have about $10 million less to spend on 2016 -- $19 million to Pablo less the $9 million for Romo.

They would likely need another reliever, so chalk up an added $6 million or so not available for 2016. $6 million is what they paid Sergio in 2015.

Instead of $50 million they have to spend, they would be left with about $34 mill. $5 million of that would be going to Nori Aoki, since the Giants wouldn't have enough money to worry about the outfield.

So they would now have about $29 million to spend on starting pitching instead of the $50 million or so they have now. And they would owe Pablo the $19 million per season for three years after that.

With $29 million, they would pretty much be out of the top starter market. Maybe they could afford to sign Jordan Zimmerman and bring back Ryan Vogelsong for insurance again. Or perhaps they would stretch out just a bit and sign two 2nd-tier starters.

Because of the rash of injuries the Giants suffered last season, signing Pablo would only have "ended" the season sooner -- not cost the NL West and a shot at a possible 4th World Series. But as Mark pointed out, it would really be costing them now. And it would handicap them by nearly $20 million per season for three years after that.

The Giants showed with Barry Zito that a bad long-term contract wasn't necessarily the death of the franchise. But it surely would have been tough. There are no Madison Bumgarner's or Buster Posey's coming up to save the franchise this time.

Signing Pablo could have cost the Giants a 4th World Series last season -- but because of all the injuries, it obviously didn't. It would have cost them any chance of signing a top starter and a 2nd-tier guy and improving the outfield.

It would have cost them an extra $55-$60 million beyond 2016.

I wouldn't go so far as to say signing Pablo would have been a disaster. Remember, he might get himself back in shape and perform say up to his 2012-2014 standards for at least a season or two. Aoki might have been OK in left field in 2016, although Pablo's contract might make it difficult to re-sign him after that. Maybe the Giants would have signed Samardzija and another 2nd-tier starter this winter, and both would have pitched like 1st-tier guys.

Signing Pablo would have cost the Giants no more than four World Championships. Without all the injuries this past season, it could possibly have been five.

Given all the injuries they suffered last season, the Giants are likely better off for going the way they did. None of the top signings would have put them in the World Series anyway. At least the odds of its doing so were slim.

Let's be thankful for what the Giants have. Had they been successful in their plans last winter, they would almost certainly have less -- and perhaps a lot less.