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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 12, 2015 23:06:40 GMT -5
For years, I've been saying I do NOT want Justin Upton on the Giants; that he's prone to brooding when he's not hitting; that he's simply NOT a reliabe outfielder.
And once again, tonight, on the ball hit by Bryd, we saw what I've seen him do so many times before; boot a makeable play.
He's a free agent.
Swell.
Let him go somewhere else, because we don't need that kind of nonsense in the outfield.
boly
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 16, 2015 7:08:56 GMT -5
He's not a fan of the ballpark, Boly, so I'm pretty sure he's picking a team in a park he would like to hit in. The Giants have no need for him anyway, as I'm pretty sure they'll pick up Aoki's option, (which he made clear he wants them to do) and it's starting to look like Byrd's option will vest as well. Even Byrd expressed surprise he's playing so much, although he said he'd love to stay.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 16, 2015 13:38:23 GMT -5
I don't know how much Byrd's option is for but I'm pretty sure the Giants are too cheap to want to pay it for an aged 4th outfielder...or maybe 5th if they keep Blanco too. Byrd would love to play anywhere at his age. Juan Perez looks like he's bulking up. He knocked a pretty hard shot to triples alley last night. He might be in the mix for a backup outfield spot too. I think Pence needs to go back to eating meat so he stays healthy.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 16, 2015 14:44:24 GMT -5
I can't see Byrd wanting to stay and be the 4th or 5th guy, or just a PH, same way I can't see De Aza wanting to be that 4th or 5th guy.
for our needs, Perez seems to fit that bill.
He can flat out PLAY some defense!
boly
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 17, 2015 7:01:15 GMT -5
Why would Marlon Byrd not be a starter next year if he stayed? The Giants have THREE outfielders better than him? In my mind he's the second best OF on the team after Pence.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 17, 2015 9:59:29 GMT -5
2nd best OUTFIELDER? As in, defender?
I'd agree.
But at his age, he's not a guy I want playing every day.
IF he'll take a back up role, I'm in.
If not, I'm not.
Frankly, I'll take Aoki, who I want hitting 1 hole,
SOMEONE ELSE in CF, and Pence.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 17, 2015 12:54:36 GMT -5
I agree with Boly...Aoki is younger, faster and is a far better hitter. Byrd is old and all he has is pop...he's been great in this short stint with the Giants but over a full season? No way I take that risk.
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Post by Rog on Sept 17, 2015 20:39:00 GMT -5
It appears likely that Byrd will be the Giants' 4th or 5th outfielder next season. Might do some platooning with Aoki, but he can't realistically platoon with Pagan, since only Blanco and Perez are good center fielders in reserve. Who knows? Maybe Tomlinson too.
Next season the Giants' backups could all hit right-handed (Byrd, Tomlinson and Susac) except for Blanco. That's a pretty solid bench at the plate, and the defense of Blanco and Susac is good. Tomlinson as the only backup infielder cuts depth and defense though. Perhaps not shortstop, but he's going to need to learn at least third base in case Duffy were to go down. Duffy himself can back up short.
Here's a thought about Byrd. The Giants might be able to exercise his option and then trade him. If Tomlinson can learn the outfield, that might work, allowing the Giants to carry a stronger defensive infielder as their 6th guy there. Maybe Adrianza, who is now the 6th infielder when Panik and Crawford are healthy.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 17, 2015 21:12:41 GMT -5
Bochy said earlier that Tomlinson can play all 3 infield spots.
He's been much better lately, but he really doesn't have the soft hands required to play SS.
In a way, he reminds me of Emanuel Burriss, but with slightly... slightly softer hands.
I think he can and should learn to play the outfield. It makes him that much more valuable.
But do you really think Byrd would re sign as the 4th or 5th outfielder?
I can't see that happening, because that 5th guy isn't going to play that much.
Then again... Pagan. Guy hasn't played a full year since, 2012? So with Blanco picking up the time in CF, that would make Byrd #4.
Me? I move pagan.
boly
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Post by Rog on Sept 18, 2015 1:55:49 GMT -5
But do you really think Byrd would re sign as the 4th or 5th outfielder? Rog -- Now THERE'S a point I hadn't thought of. Marlon is likely going to reach the number of plate appearances (550 this season) which would lock in his team option for $8 million. Maybe he thinks he can get more playing time and/or money elsewhere and would decline the option himself. If he did that, he would have the option of signing with the Giants (unlikely they would take him back at more than the $8 million option) or someone else. I had just assumed Marlon would be happy to force the Giants to exercise their $8 million option, but maybe not. It's conceivable too that the Giants would accept the options on both Byrd and Aoki and trade one of the pair. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3035/justin-upton#ixzz3m4RE91nX
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Post by Rog on Sept 18, 2015 2:22:40 GMT -5
Me? I move pagan.
Rog -- I'm sure the Giants would prefer to move Angel and get a younger, better center fielder. But with Angel owed $11 million more on his contract and eligible to be a free agent at the end of next season, why would a team take on his full contract? If the Giants could get a team to take on Angel though and traded Susac for Minnesota's center fielder Aaron Hicks.
With Torii Hunter's $10.5 million contract running out, maybe the Twins would be willing to take Susac AND Pagan for Hicks. I would hate to give up Susac, but Hicks might be a decent 26-year-old center fielder who would be under team control for another four seasons. The money the Giants would save on Pagan's contract could go toward a couple of good starters (still with one of them likely being Leake), and the Giants could likely also pick up a backup catcher with the money saved. Or maybe get a backup catching prospect as part of the deal.
23-year-old Stuart Turner is only the Twins' #19 prospect according to MLB.com, but he was the second catcher drafted in the 2013 draft. His bat hasn't grown as well as hoped (.223 in AA), but his defense -- which was the primary reason he was picked -- has been at least as good as expected. He is known for a strong arm and for handling a pitching staff well and showing leadership.
Kind of sounds like a nice backup for Posey, doesn't he? The bat would be worrisome, but not giving up too much defensively, handling the pitching staff and leadership-wise behind the plate might make for a good fit. I would think Turner's ETA wouldn't be before 2017, but in the meantime, the Giants should be able to pick up a backup catcher for cheap. Maybe they simply go with Jackson Williams, who is also defensive-minded, in the short term. Or Hector Sanchez.
Anyway, just a thought, and I haven't researched the idea. But shedding Pagan's contract and receiving a young center fielder under team control for four more years would make for a nice combination. It appears he is a little below average as a center fielder, but he does have speed to compensate (11 steals in 81 games for the Twins). He hits southpaws particularly well, which could make Blanco a nice semi-platoon candidate for him.
Hicks should be a lot healthier than Pagan as been. He was the #14 overall pick in the 2008 draft, nine picks behind Buster Posey.
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 18, 2015 8:44:05 GMT -5
I just don't get the fourth or fifth outfielder opinion with Marlon Byrd, considering he's played every day since he got here and often hits fourth or fifth. He's more of a traditional corner outfielder than Aoki because of the power, and Aoki's decline the second half both offensively and defensively has been downright scary. Aoki's contract is reasonable which makes it ok to keep both anyway. Trading Pagan is a pipe dream though, he makes too much money and he's not even close to being the player he was.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 18, 2015 10:15:47 GMT -5
Mark, Aoki's decline in the second half began with that broken bone. When he came back, he was NOT the same player.
Then, throw in the beaning... and, well, for me, that says it all.
I'll still take him over Bryd.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 18, 2015 12:00:33 GMT -5
Look, he's done great with us the month that he's been here...but he's 38 freakin' years old. His power numbers are good, not great, but his average is bad and on a downward trend. He swings at a LOT of bad balls. I don't like where he is heading and I feel like any team that winds up with him next year will be disgruntled before the end and might even cut him midseason. I don't want him at all but if we do keep him, we'd better keep him on the bench.
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 18, 2015 18:02:47 GMT -5
That's definitely a concern with Byrd, I agree. I'd like to see them work something out for less money so he'd be back next year though. You would think if his age was a major problem he'd be slumping this late in the season, but he's shown no signs of wearing down. I see nothing from him that makes me think he'll fall off a cliff and be terrible next year.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 19, 2015 10:28:32 GMT -5
Mark--That's definitely a concern with Byrd, I agree. I'd like to see them work something out for less money so he'd be back next year though. You would think if his age was a major problem he'd be slumping this late in the season, but he's shown no signs of wearing down. I see nothing from him that makes me think he'll fall off a cliff and be terrible next year.
***boly says****
I'd like him back at less money, too, Mark.
But I DO see signs maybe not of him wearing down, but reasons to question at his age, his ability to play 4 or 5 days a week.
Since he joined us, no question he received a huge adrenaline jump!
Huge!
His RBI's prove that.
But it's important to remember, he CAME to us hitting a rip roaring .237.
There are reasons for that, not the least of which is his age.
I'll elaborate.
The problem is two-fold, as I see it.
1-There is no in between for Byrd; he's either on fire, crushing everything thrown, or two, like last night, or so cold he'd create an ice age in the Mojave
2-Watch his hands at set up; low, near his belt. They then have to go back, and up to get into hitting position, and THEN come forward.
It's a start up mechanism, a timing mechanism much like the one Willie Mays had. VERY MUCH like the one Mays had, infact, and so much so, that it's CAUSING THE SAME PROBLEM that Willie experienced in his later years.
It creates a loop in his swing, which was complicated to begin with (toooooo many moving parts to keep in sync) , which means he often misses pitches he should hit.
I've long been a proponent of 2 things;
1-A simple swing with the minimum of moving parts
2-As a player ages it is a MUST that they recognize what the problem is, and make a basic swing change, as both Carl Yazstremski and Stan Musial did.
Mays didn't do that, and neither has Byrd. Both stubbornly, bull-headedly, IMHO, wouldn't/won't change.
And since they won't change there has been/was a drastic and dramatic drop off in their production.
If anyone seriously thinks this is even close to the player Byrd would be for us next year... well, I would argue profusely that you're going to be sadly disappointed.
Unless he's willing to take a HUGE pay cut, I don't want to spend the money on him. We need starting pitching, not a 38, soon to be (next year) 39 year old outfielder.
boly
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Post by Rog on Sept 20, 2015 12:40:56 GMT -5
With Pagan, Blanco, Pence, Aoki and Byrd, the Giants would have a very deep outfield, which might be important given that all but Byrd have suffered injuries this season.
The only question is cost, given that the Giants will likely be trying to shave salary elsewhere to take advantage of the strong free agent crop. I'm not sure Mark Buehrle has been mentioned in this regard, but he's a solid 2nd-tier pitcher like Mike Leake.
Dave Flemming mentioned yesterday that Leake hasn't been inducing many swing-throughs of late. Yesterday he didn't gain a single one on any of his 49 pitches. It appears Leake and the Giants have a mutual interest in going forward, so that's a little concerning. Another concern is that the ground ball pitcher's number of ground balls has gone down a bit as well.
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