Byrd II

[klaiggeb]

So far, I'm far from impressed.

Honestly if we wanted a guy chasing pitch after pitch after pitch OUT of the strike zone, we could have rolled Maxwell out there!

That's what Justin's done for us all year long.

Swell.

Now we have 2.


I expected better, I really, really did.

Still not sorry we made the deal... but if this act continues... I will be.

Hunter.... Joey... dudes, get well soon or it's going to be a long... long last 5 weeks.

boly

[Islandboagie]

Totally agree. I'd even say Susac should be included in this group. Last year I was intrigued, this year has been quite the opposite. If the September callups weren't right around the corner I'd say swap Sanchez and Susac.

[klaiggeb]

I would not, boagie.

As far as I'm concerned, we could let Sanchez go, and not miss a beat.

he's virtually useless at the plate, which he showed last year, and then showed again this year.

Remember, Susac just came back from an injury, and he's had... what, 20 at bats since then?


He's a ton better than HACKTOR behind the plate, and also throws much, much better.

Just before he got hurt, it looked to me that he was really finding himself.

So much so that I proposed moving Buster to 1B, and Belt to LF.

boly

[rxmeister]

Byrd will hit HR's but he came over here hitting .240 for a reason. All you can hope for is that those HR's come at a good time. He's already helped us win one game, which is one more than Utley has helped the Dodgers win.

[klaiggeb]

Mostly, Mark, I just want him to do 2 things;

1-Put the damned ball in play!

2-STOP chasing pitches waaay out of the damned strikezone!

boly

[rxmeister]

There's a reason he's played for so many teams, Boly. I don't think this tiger is changing his stripes. He's streaky though and we can hope he gets hot.

[klaiggeb]

I'm with that, Mark.

His problem is his swing.

I've said this a hundred times about hitters; too many moving parts.

Watch the way he starts. His hands are WAY LOW.

They then have to go back, and up, to get into hitting position, which causes a loop.

When you're young, you can do it.

But as a player ages...his muscle memory won't allow it to be solid as much as before.

Thus, a player like Bryd needs to adopt what Yaz did: CHANGE THE STARTING POSITION of his hands.

But he won't.

boly

[sfgdood]

guys, guys GUYS!! A little perspective here. He's a waiver wire pickup. Were you expecting Bryce Harper numbers from a waived player? Yes he can get hot as any big leaguer can...but basically he is what he is. We threw him out there against 3 Pittsburgh pitchers that he had OWNED in his career. He got to one but the other two made him look silly. That's about what he is now. If Pence stays injured and we have to rely more on Byrd, we're not likely to be happy with the results.

[klaiggeb]

Randy, again, you're taking the comments out of context.

no one expects him to be the Byrd he once was, much less Harper.

But we DIDN'T expect him to suck this badly. And after his first game, he has stunk up the joint.

I merely pointed out WHY he has hitting woes.

He won't change, and thus, his career will be shortened.

boly

[Islandboagie]

Even at his best was he really that wonderful? Byrd is one of those players that benefitted from hitting in hitter-friendly parks in hitter-friendly divisions. I don't even know if he's much of an upgrade over Maxwell. If I were the Giants I'd have rolled the dice on Parker instead.

[klaiggeb]

That's exactly what I said, boagie. We could have gotten this nonsense from Maxwell!

In fact, this is what we DID get from Maxwell!

As to Parker, I like Lollis better.


Doesn't matter, boagie, we need pitching, and Evans is pursuing an outfielder.


What does that say about Pence's injury?

To me... that he ain't coming back soon.

boly

[rxmeister]

Byrd hit home runs in CitiField too as a Met, and that was before they pulled the fences in. The guy has legit power, but he's streaky. He's the least of our problems, with the most of them being starting pitching. I know the reasons for sending Heston out make sense, but at this pivotal time of the season, to lose even one Heston start for the likes of Matt Cain is ridiculous. And while nobody has said anything about him lately, Yusmeiro Petit has been bad this year and if they had made him the fifth starter as some suggested in the offseason, it would have been a disaster.

[klaiggeb]

Right on all three points, Mark.

Cain pitches like a waiter in a fancy restaurant; serving up tasty dishes for the hitters.


I just don't see how Bochy can justify running him out there each week.

he seems to think Cain is close, but I want to ask him, "close to what?"


2 decent starts out of 10.

That's not very good. In fact, that's downright terrible.


Yeah, we're in a tough stretch of the schedule, but what he did last night was flat out unforgiveable.


Is Heston the answer?

He's missed a start, and had some time to recuperate.

Is it enough?

I don't know, but he can't be any worse than Cain has been.

Same with Petit. He can't be any worse.

Then again, or GM is pursuing an outfielder...

Sigh...

One of us is missing the obvious.

boly

[rxmeister]

You can't pursue what isn't available, Boly. It has to be a waiver deal now and unless the player passes through untouched he can't be traded. If you claim a player you have to then work out a trade or the player gets pulled back. The only starter I've heard to clear waivers is James Shields, and are you really going to get saddled with that contract with what's out there this off season in terms of starting pitching? I heard Ian Kennedy was claimed and then the Padres pulled him back. Why trade for five weeks of Kennedy when you can get him for nothing but money after the season? At the deadline maybe, but now it would be dumb.

[klaiggeb]

Mark, I understand that. And I'm not sure I'd want Kennedy anyway.

But I find it really hard to believe there aren't ANY arms out there that couldn't help.

I mean if we dealt for Stubbs, how much was he going to help?

As to Shields... I'm not sure. I realize he signed for a lot of bucks, but I'm not of the ilk to believe he's done... especially not after his track record.

Of course IF I offered to trade for him... I wouldn't give up much to get him.

boly

[rxmeister]

I'll bet if you put a waiver claim on Shields the Padres would have just given him to you. There's too many better and younger starters than Shields available this off season. It's not that he's bad, just that we can do better.

[rxmeister]

Speaking of future Giants starters:@hankschulman: Holy smokes! RT @giantsprospects: Phil Bickford so far this season in the AZL: 22.2IP 13H 6BB 32K. On a 40-50 pitch limit.

[Islandboagie]

All of that sounds very good, except the 40-50 pitch limit. Will major league baseball never learn? All these arm problems, it's almost common place for these kids to have TJ surgery before they're 25. You don't train for a marathon by running sprints. These kids have to get their arms conditioned for throwing 120+ pitches. I'd stretch him out a little more than 40-50 pitches. I'd start him at 60-70 now, then work him up slowly, build that stamina and arm strength.

[sfgdood]

I don't disagree with the main point, Boagie, but you have to consider this kid has pitched a full collegiate season and those coaches do not baby their aces

[klaiggeb]

I'm with Mark, and Don Sutton on this one.

You don't build up arm strength and durability by pitching in short, pitch-shortened stints.

Mark's analogy was a dandy. you don't train for a marathon by running sprints.

And Mark, no, I don't think MLB will ever learn.


Reminds me off pro football in the 70's. EVERY NFL team ran the ball on 1swt down, 90%+ of the time.

Thus, Tom Landry developed the 'flex' defensive line... because he KNEW coaches were so stubborn, so egotistically prideful, they wouldn't change.

Took over 10 years for those morons to 'get it,' and by then, it was too late. The Cowboys had already dominated for a long time.

MLB is just the same.

boly

[rxmeister]

All those Marks should say Boagie, because they're his comments not mine. I actually agree with Randy. He pitched a full collegiate season and should be babied. All the doctors, trainers and experts believe this is the right way of doing things, and I have no training in this area, so I'll defer to them. I do agree that it's amazing that in the old days they pitched every fourth day, pitched complete games and never got hurt, but with all the money invested in these guys they have to defer to the experts. Look how much the Giants pay Cain and Lincecum to be shells of their former selves

[Rog]

If the September callups weren't right around the corner I'd say swap Sanchez and Susac.


Rog -- I strongly believe that would be an overreaction. Andrew is better both offensively and defensively.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3006/byrd-ii#ixzz3k8RtmpMe

[Rog]

Mostly, Mark, I just want him to do 2 things;

1-Put the damned ball in play!

2-STOP chasing pitches waaay out of the damned strikezone!


Rog -- The problem here is that the hitters in the short term pretty much are what they are. With Marvin, we'll simply need to take the bad with the good.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3006/byrd-ii?page=1#ixzz3k8SN4Fwu

[Rog]

If I were the Giants I'd have rolled the dice on Parker instead.

Rog -- I'm not at all sold on Jarrett Parker. He struck out 5 times in his 9 at bats with the Giants, and he has struck out 150 more times with the River Cats. This season Jarrett has stuck out once ever three at bats. That simply isn't going to cut it.

One could make an argument for Maxwell. Justin will run into one every once in a while, and he's a much better defender than Byrd, but of Parker you should not be the harker.

To put Parker's season into perspective, when the Giants signed Maxwell we pointed out he struck out too much to be a good hitter. This season Jarrett has struck out more frequently IN THE MINORS than Justin has in the majors.

IMO if Jarrett is the answer, we're asking the wrong question.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3006/byrd-ii?page=1#ixzz3k8Sw10G7

[Rog]

And while nobody has said anything about him lately, Yusmeiro Petit has been bad this year and if they had made him the fifth starter as some suggested in the offseason, it would have been a disaster.


Rog -- This has been brought up before, and it's still true. Yusmeiro is best in short stints. He still has yielded only a .610 OPS over his first 25 pitches in games this season. Much different situation, since Bumgarner is a starter, but Madison is the Giants' best pitcher, and yet his OPS allowed over his first 25 pitches is .686. Petit's .610 is among the best on the Giants.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3006/byrd-ii?page=1#ixzz3k8UXtfBA

[klaiggeb]

For my money, it's a darned good thing that Byrd actually DID something positive yesterday because I was considering flipping him the Byrd!



boly

[Rog]

There is evidence that shows that pitch and inning count is important to a young arm. I have read that the reason for all the Tommy John surgeries is how pitchers throw their pitches today. Let's not forget that they're throwing them faster than ever before, and obviously the quicker a muscle is moving, the more stress is being put on it.

I don't think anyone has the full answer, but the evidence says that young arms should be taken care of very carefully. I haven't specifically done so myself, and I certainly don't have time right this moment, but if someone were to put pitch count and arm injuries into his browser, I think he would learn quite a bit.

Maybe someone else would like to try it this time.

[klaiggeb]

As an old pitcher, as is Don, I think we would both take issue with this "be careful with your arm stuff."

Mike Marshall years and years ago, did a study on the NEED to throw everyday.

How did guys like Sphan have such long careers pitching 250 + innings every year?

Today, guys are toooo muscular, and tooo babied.

Don Sutton agrees.

boly

[sfgdood]

I'm not sure how scientific Marshall's study could have been. Clearly much has changed and ALL of the more recent data suggests that a more measured gradual progression of work load is the safest way to go. Barring more recent research to the contrary, I can't really accept that the old ways would work again in today's baseball.

[klaiggeb]

Marshall had a Phd in, I'm going to spell this wrong, Kinestheology; And his theory on pitching a LOT, is what he wrote his thesis about.

I'd say that makes him pretty qualified, Randy.

But you're right about the "old ways" not working today.

Too many steriotypes, too many stubborn pitching coaches and other teachers.

boly