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Post by Rog on Mar 25, 2015 10:33:36 GMT -5
This is part of why the Giants want Buster Posey to continue to catch. (From Giants Extra)
SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. – The genesis of Jake Peavy’s newest pitch didn’t come the moment it left his fingertips on Monday. It didn’t come while he tinkered in the bullpen or pored over the opposing lineup. The spark of invention didn’t crackle amid those deep, disconnected thoughts while dangling an arm out the driver’s side window. It came a day earlier, at Scottsdale Stadium. And Peavy wasn’t even there. His catcher was. “Look, here’s the thing you’ve got to understand about Buster Posey…” said Peavy, launching into the story of how he came to throw a four-seam changeup against the Kansas City Royals on Monday. A day earlier, Posey faced the Angels’ C.J. Wilson and had trouble picking up the left-hander’s changeup. It looked like a four-seam fastball out of the hand. Posey found himself needing to hold back an extra moment, let the pitch get deep on him, in order to recognize it. When Wilson switched to his fastball, then, it had the surprising pop of a car backfiring. The next day, Posey described Wilson’s changeup to Peavy. “Can you throw one of those?” Posey asked. “I don’t know,” Peavy said. “Can you try?” Posey said. It’s not a suggestion that Posey would make to any pitcher on the Giants staff. But he knew that Peavy has a jury rigger’s mentality on the mound. He already was experimenting with a splitter that he plans to throw this season – anything offspeed that allows his fastball to play up. When you don’t throw with as much steam, you learn to embrace the wrinkles. “I’m throwing the kitchen sink at ‘em,” Peavy said. “I’m excited about it. I’m excited to have this time to work on it. I want to have all my bases covered. I want to mix and match an come up with a game plan to beat you. As you get older, why not look for new ways to get people out? “I’ve watched guys in this league reinvent themselves, watched guys grow,” said Peavy, noting that hitters tend to hunt pitches in the bottom of the zone more than before. “As the game changes, you feel like you can do different things to combat opponents.” Peavy skipped his first changeup in front of the plate. He guessed he skipped at least five or six more before he started to get a feel for it. The Royals tallied three runs on seven hits and a walk in Peavy’s five innings – a linescore that would’ve been bumpier if not for outfielders Justin Maxwell and Juan Perez contributing assists when the Royals twice tried to stretch singles. First baseman Brandon Belt snagged a line drive, too. But Peavy struck out Lorenzo Cain to strand a runner in scoring position, end the fifth and finish his afternoon. The four-seam changeup was the last pitch he threw. “I didn’t have anything on my heater today,” said Peavy, who was experiencing flulike symptoms. “But there were times (the hitters) were late. That told me something.” Afterward, Peavy and Posey went over film of the outing. “Thanks for hanging with me today,” Peavy told his catcher. “The changeup, I think we found something there.”
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Post by klaiggeb on Mar 25, 2015 18:47:44 GMT -5
Sorry, Rog... but I'm not impressed that Buster suggested it.
He's a catcher. He sees the ball out of pitcher's hands.
He was impressed with what CJ threw... and he did what any catcher worth a darn SHOULD do; made a suggestion to a pitcher.
Posey would not be my catcher if I were running the circus.
Not that he isn't decent to average back there; he is.
Susac is better, much, much better.
I like Buster for his bat, and, as I've said so many times before:
1-He's not fluid blocking balls
2-Catching takes away from what he does best; hitting
3-He's average behind the plate in all physical aspects of the game. Nothing more, nothing less.
4-Mentally, he may be very good, but he does NOT have a lifetime's experience there.
For ME, right now, with Pence out, Buster plays 1B, Belt plays LF, and Aoki plays RF. Not the best defensive outfield we've got, and in the late innings, and with a lead I put Blanco in RF, Perez in LF, and Belt to 1B
the more games Buster catches, the shorter his career will be.
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on Mar 25, 2015 19:57:45 GMT -5
Boly- 3-He's average behind the plate in all physical aspects of the game. Nothing more, nothing less.
Boagie- Every single stat that I've seen in regards to Posey's defense would contradict your above statement. I will agree he has an unorthodox style of blocking balls, but he's even above average at that. We've won three championships in the 4 1/2 years he's been in the majors and in one of the seasons we didn't win a championship is the season he was injured. Buster catching is the perfect example of the age old phrase "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
Now, there is a legitimate argument about lengthening Posey's career, but then again, sports are never a guarantee. I couldn't make a "play it safe" decision like that and sleep at night. I couldn't have done what the GM of the Nationals did to Strausburg and the rest of the team. Sport careers are short, teams and players have a very short time to leave their legacy. What if they do move Posey and the Giants never win another championship... I couldn't do that, not to Posey, not to the rest of the team. Maybe that's just me, perhaps I'm a different sort.
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Post by Rog on Mar 26, 2015 8:06:12 GMT -5
Boagie -- Boagie- Every single stat that I've seen in regards to Posey's defense would contradict your above statement. I will agree he has an unorthodox style of blocking balls, but he's even above average at that. We've won three championships in the 4 1/2 years he's been in the majors and in one of the seasons we didn't win a championship is the season he was injured. Buster catching is the perfect example of the age old phrase "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!" Rog -- You pretty much said what I was going to say better than I could. Sometimes I wonder if we get caught up too much in the how did he do it than the how much did he do? Unorthodox doesn't always mean ineffective. One area in which Buster has been the leaders has been in pitch framing. Last season he led the league with 180 close pitches that weren't quite strikes being call strikes anyway. Like measuring defense, measuring pitch framing is difficult. But a lot of the same guys show up near the top each year, which would seem to give it some credibility. The stat is measured by using the same pitch location measurement that baseball uses to judge its umpires, so it more accurate than any other measure. Although Buster beat him out last season, Jonathan Lucroy is the guy who has really stood out since the measurement began. Some criticize analytics, but both their breadth and usage by professional teams in each of the major sports is growing. The "analyticists" themselves will tell you their art is imperfect, but they can also point you to the degree of confidence they have in each metric. Those who criticize are more or less taking the position of "what do you mean, the earth isn't flat?" Some skepticism is warranted, particularly in areas such as fielding, but those who make blanket accusations just aren't paying attention. Anyway, back to Buster. We can talk about his pitch blocking style all we want, but it is a fact that he ranks among the leaders in avoiding wild pitches and passed balls. One can point to his no longer catching Tim Lincecum on a regular basis, but that ignores that he was among the leaders even when he WAS catching Tim regularly. When we say that Buster is average, we may be looking at his form more than his results. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2767/why-giants-buster-catch#ixzz3VUms6vQW |
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Post by Rog on Mar 26, 2015 8:25:17 GMT -5
I'd like to give a fairly quick reply to each of the four points: 1-He's not fluid blocking balls Rog -- But the results are there. 2-Catching takes away from what he does best; hitting Rog -- This may be a very good point. Certainly Buster has hit better when he catches. But there are three points of possible contradiction. . Because he "shares" first base with left-handed hitting Brandon Belt, Buster faces more lefthanders when he plays first base. His splits against righties and southpaws are very similar to his splits as a catcher and as a first baseman. . If catching is truly detracting from his hitting, it would seem he would hit worse later in the season as he wore down. In truth, Buster has hit better in the second half of the season. . Buster's hitting has been good for a first baseman, but phenomenal for a catcher. Would we rather have had Belt in the lineup with Buster, or Hector Sanchez in the lineup with him? . Many of the Giants' pitchers have indicated they like throwing to Buster. That in itself may be a good enough reason. 3-He's average behind the plate in all physical aspects of the game. Nothing more, nothing less. Rog -- But his results are above-average. 4-Mentally, he may be very good, but he does NOT have a lifetime's experience there. Rog -- If pitchers prefer to throw to him, then his less-than-a-lifetime experience behind the plate is overridden by that preference. The argument that Buster risks his health more behind the plate is a good one IMO, and if we start seeing him have concussions, we'll likely see him moved away from the plate more, if not entirely. As far as I know though, the only concussion Buster has suffered came when he was hit in the head BATTING while at San Jose. A good indication that he HASN'T had concussions is that aside from his gruesome ankle injury in 2011, he hasn't missed much consecutive time. Another indication is that the Giants continue to use him behind the plate on a regular basis. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2767/why-giants-buster-catch?page=1#ixzz3VUrFktGd |
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Post by Rog on Mar 26, 2015 8:34:32 GMT -5
Boly -- Sorry, Rog... but I'm not impressed that Buster suggested it. He's a catcher. He sees the ball out of pitcher's hands. He was impressed with what CJ threw... and he did what any catcher worth a darn SHOULD do; made a suggestion to a pitcher. Rog -- Maybe it's because he gets so much positive press, but how often do we hear about this type of situation with other catchers? If the pitchers like pitching to Buster, IMO that's a good reason to keep him behind the plate unless situations change. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2767/why-giants-buster-catch?page=1#ixzz3VUwCkHi2 |
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Post by rxmeister on Mar 27, 2015 18:26:53 GMT -5
Buster is a much better defensive catcher than some on the board think he is, and the numbers show it. Anyone wanting him to switch positions is also missing the obvious, which is how rare it is to have a catcher that can hit like this. Change his position and you even the playing field with other teams. I'd rather have Buster Posey, the best hitting catcher in baseball, then Buster Posey, the tenth best hitting third baseman, or fifteenth best hitting first baseman. It's an advantage few teams have and the Giants should be in no rush to give back.
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Post by klaiggeb on Mar 28, 2015 11:03:36 GMT -5
I'd like to give a fairly quick reply to each of the four points:
1-He's not fluid blocking balls
Rog -- But the results are there.
********No, Rog, they are not. All one has to do is "watch" him during the regular season. I stated many times that last year, FOR THE POST SEASON, suddenly, Buster began doing things correctly. But during the season? And I posted this, he was beginning to look like Lazy Benny.
2-Catching takes away from what he does best; hitting
Rog -- This may be a very good point. Certainly Buster has hit better when he catches. But there are three points of possible contradiction.
. Because he "shares" first base with left-handed hitting Brandon Belt, Buster faces more lefthanders when he plays first base. His splits against righties and southpaws are very similar to his splits as a catcher and as a first baseman.
. If catching is truly detracting from his hitting, it would seem he would hit worse later in the season as he wore down. In truth, Buster has hit better in the second half of the season.
. Buster's hitting has been good for a first baseman, but phenomenal for a catcher. Would we rather have had Belt in the lineup with Buster, or Hector Sanchez in the lineup with him?
. Many of the Giants' pitchers have indicated they like throwing to Buster. That in itself may be a good enough reason.
******************Sample size of Buster playing other positions is simply too small to make an evaluation.
3-He's average behind the plate in all physical aspects of the game. Nothing more, nothing less.
Rog -- But his results are above-average.
***************Disagree. See my response to your first point above.
4-Mentally, he may be very good, but he does NOT have a lifetime's experience there.
Rog -- If pitchers prefer to throw to him, then his less-than-a-lifetime experience behind the plate is overridden by that preference.
The argument that Buster risks his health more behind the plate is a good one IMO, and if we start seeing him have concussions, we'll likely see him moved away from the plate more, if not entirely. As far as I know though, the only concussion Buster has suffered came when he was hit in the head BATTING while at San Jose.
A good indication that he HASN'T had concussions is that aside from his gruesome ankle injury in 2011, he hasn't missed much consecutive time. Another indication is that the Giants continue to use him behind the plate on a regular basis.
****************I'll ask the one question that Randy keeps pointing out: 'Is he still driving the ball like he used to?" and the answer is, no, he isn't and hasnt' since... what, July... august, last year?
iN OTHER WORDS... What happened to his power?
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on Mar 28, 2015 14:27:11 GMT -5
Boly- *****************Sample size of Buster playing other positions is simply too small to make an evaluation.
Boagie- But his sample size of catching is large, and proven to be well above average, which you disagree with. So what's the point of sample sizes if you compeletly ignore them?
As for his dissapearing power last season, he hit 22 homeruns which happens to be his career average in a 162 game average. Since Posey hit 22 in less than 162 games last year his power increased last season.
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Post by donk33 on Mar 28, 2015 20:03:37 GMT -5
Buster is a much better defensive catcher than some on the board think he is, and the numbers show it. Anyone wanting him to switch positions is also missing the obvious, which is how rare it is to have a catcher that can hit like this. Change his position and you even the playing field with other teams. I'd rather have Buster Posey, the best hitting catcher in baseball, then Buster Posey, the tenth best hitting third baseman, or fifteenth best hitting first baseman. It's an advantage few teams have and the Giants should be in no rush to give back. dk..It is funny on how our stats guy fails to mention that the "Fielding Bible" experts rate Posey as a minus win as a catcher and he is rated some where down the list for fielding catchers....that the stats say that if you take the PO numbers from his CS, he is very mediocre in catching base stealers....and if you listen to one of the vet pitchers. Posey has to be called out to the mound and has little interest in talking to the pitcher about his pitches...and if you notice how the game drags when Posey runs thru the whole menu of signs trying to get the pitcher to OK to something.....and they picked 4 catchers for the NL All-Star without naming Posey...... |
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Post by Islandboagie on Mar 28, 2015 22:47:42 GMT -5
Don, why do you insist on continuing with this? How many times do you want to be wrong about Posey? I thought for sure the MVP and leading baseball in hitting would have stopped your silly rants about him. I know its hard, but sometimes you have to admit you're wrong.
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Post by Rog on Mar 29, 2015 13:41:13 GMT -5
1-He's not fluid blocking balls Rog -- But the results are there. ********No, Rog, they are not. All one has to do is "watch" him during the regular season. I stated many times that last year, FOR THE POST SEASON, suddenly, Buster began doing things correctly. But during the season? And I posted this, he was beginning to look like Lazy Benny. Rog -- Here is why I say he is getting results. These are last season's numbers, but he has enjoyed similar advantages in previous seasons. What I'm measuring here is balls not blocked or caught (wild pitches + passed balls) divided into innings caught. Buster missed a ball every 42.3 innings. Hector missed one every 16.3 innings. Surprisingly, Susac also missed one every 16.3 frames. Now, Buster had the advantage of not catching Tim Lincecum much if at all. Given that advantage, I thought last season was his worst in this regard. But he enjoyed clear advantages even back when he was catching Tim regularly. The results are there. If I had time, I'd do more in depth analysis, but the fact is that Buster allowed fewer balls to get by him than most catchers, and the only Giants catcher I can remember who might be better is Chris Stewart. I know Chris was better at throwing out runners, and Buster hasn't enjoyed a huge advantage over the other Giants catchers in that area. I think that as Mark said, Buster IS better behind the plate than most here give him credit for. I don't think Don would give Buster credit if he took his millions and built a hospital in Africa. Boly looks at technique, and Buster's inexperience at the position may contribute to his not having great mechanics behind the dish. But when it comes to not letting balls get away, the results are there. If he allows fewer balls to get by him, how can the results NOT be there? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2767/why-giants-buster-catch#ixzz3VnhfD700 |
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Post by klaiggeb on Mar 29, 2015 14:31:33 GMT -5
Boagie-As for his dissapearing power last season, he hit 22 homeruns which happens to be his career average in a 162 game average. Since Posey hit 22 in less than 162 games last year his power increased last season.
***Boly says***
Boagie, that's not what I'm talking about, and honestly, you know what I mean.
Randy pointed it out first last year: Sometime late August(?) early September(?), Posey stopped driving the ball.
Fact.
I haven't followed much this spring, but from what I read...it hasn't gotten any better.
Acording to the Giant website today...32 at bats, 2 doubles... NO HRs, 2 RBIs.
This is simply not very good, and not acceptable.
if he's hurt, and remember, last year, I suggested he was... that's one thing.
But let's not pretend his power is there, when the numbers say otherwise.
boly
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Post by klaiggeb on Mar 29, 2015 14:52:02 GMT -5
Roger-********No, Rog, they are not. All one has to do is "watch" him during the regular season. I stated many times that last year, FOR THE POST SEASON, suddenly, Buster began doing things correctly. But during the season? And I posted this, he was beginning to look like Lazy Benny.
Rog -- Here is why I say he is getting results. These are last season's numbers, but he has enjoyed similar advantages in previous seasons. What I'm measuring here is balls not blocked or caught (wild pitches + passed balls) divided into innings caught.
Buster missed a ball every 42.3 innings. Hector missed one every 16.3 innings. Surprisingly, Susac also missed one every 16.3 fra
***boly says***
Rgo, we're talking two different things here.
my post said: "He's not fluid blocking balls."
I didn't mention results because that's not what I was talking about.
He moves awkwardly back there, not fluidly like Susac does. What I said was, all you have to do is "watch" him.
Because he doesn't move fluidly, I can't rate him any higer than "average" defensively because though he may actually prevent a wild pitch... he's often not in a postion to prevent a runner from advancing.
You can show me numbers all you want, but it doesn't change the facts that he's not fluid; not natural back there.
And, in addition, until last year's post season, I had not seen ANY improvement in his abilities back there.
None.
I remember in 2010 making similar comments, but I also said I expect him to improve the longer he played.
IMHO, from a visual stand point; from an ex coaches stand point, he hasnt'. At times, I think he's regressed.
we'll see this year.
In fact, IF they actually end up showing the game down here on CSNBAY area, and NOT black it out because it's dodger land... I'll watch a few innings.
boly
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Post by donk33 on Mar 29, 2015 19:02:23 GMT -5
Don, why do you insist on continuing with this? How many times do you want to be wrong about Posey? I thought for sure the MVP and leading baseball in hitting would have stopped your silly rants about him. I know its hard, but sometimes you have to admit you're wrong. dk...I'm only talking about his fielding......he did improve some last year, but he is still mediocre....and that is just saying the same thing the fielding gurus say about him..... |
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Post by donk33 on Mar 29, 2015 19:21:47 GMT -5
1-He's not fluid blocking balls Rog -- But the results are there. ********No, Rog, they are not. All one has to do is "watch" him during the regular season. I stated many times that last year, FOR THE POST SEASON, suddenly, Buster began doing things correctly. But during the season? And I posted this, he was beginning to look like Lazy Benny. Rog -- Here is why I say he is getting results. These are last season's numbers, but he has enjoyed similar advantages in previous seasons. What I'm measuring here is balls not blocked or caught (wild pitches + passed balls) divided into innings caught. Buster missed a ball every 42.3 innings. Hector missed one every 16.3 innings. Surprisingly, Susac also missed one every 16.3 frames. Now, Buster had the advantage of not catching Tim Lincecum much if at all. Given that advantage, I thought last season was his worst in this regard. But he enjoyed clear advantages even back when he was catching Tim regularly. The results are there. If I had time, I'd do more in depth analysis, but the fact is that Buster allowed fewer balls to get by him than most catchers, and the only Giants catcher I can remember who might be better is Chris Stewart. I know Chris was better at throwing out runners, and Buster hasn't enjoyed a huge advantage over the other Giants catchers in that area. I think that as Mark said, Buster IS better behind the plate than most here give him credit for. I don't think Don would give Buster credit if he took his millions and built a hospital in Africa. Boly looks at technique, and Buster's inexperience at the position may contribute to his not having great mechanics behind the dish. But when it comes to not letting balls get away, the results are there. If he allows fewer balls to get by him, how can the results NOT be there? dk...I can't quote him exactly, but Johnny Bench said...if you want good stats as a catcher, you tend to call more high pitches....something I think Posey does....my dissing Posey's fielding was because he had terrible mechanics...he jumped up in the air for pitches in the dirt...and was very lucky to have the ball find his glove...on breaking pitches inside to left handers he would go into the "fetal" position to avoid getting a foul tip....he continues to set-up too wide for my taste...he never shows any leadership in handling pitchers who get into trouble...he very rarely goes to the mound on his own.....many of my comments were also voiced by out of town broadcasters...never the local guys....his throws to second have tended to veer off towards right field.....his foot speed and base running keeps slowing down...and I never got an answer if there is any stat kept on runners getting thrown out in "stretching" hits as a hitter or a base runner???...surely Posey would be among the leaders.. McGraw had the brains to move Mel Ott from catcher to outfielder when he was 17...and Ott still had the ability to shift to third base when the Giants needed him for the 1937 pennant...shift Posey away from the squat and see if he gets some power back into his legs... Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2767/why-giants-buster-catch#ixzz3VnhfD700 |
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Post by Rog on Mar 29, 2015 21:53:23 GMT -5
Boly -- But let's not pretend his power is there, when the numbers say otherwise. Rog -- Buster is an extremely streaky hitter, both power-wise and average-wise. If one looked at the calendar year from about the All-Star break in 2013 through the All-Star break in 2014, Buster had a very down "year." But he had a hot start in 2013 and a fabulous finish last season. Now, if we want to see something that backs up a loss of power, even though he hit 24 homers last season compared to 15 the previous season, they traveled 14 fewer feet on average. The increase in number of home runs would indicate more power, while the decrease in average distance would indicate less. Apparently Buster tired in the second half of the 2013 season, which contributed to fewer home runs and a lower batting average that season. I don't know that he had excuses in early 2014, although I also don't know that he didn't. As you and others have pointed out, he was great in the second half last season -- until he began slumping in late September and had it last all through the postseason, particularly with regard to power. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2767/why-giants-buster-catch#ixzz3VpjbOdn7 |
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Post by Rog on Mar 29, 2015 21:55:32 GMT -5
Don -- I never got an answer if there is any stat kept on runners getting thrown out in "stretching" hits as a hitter or a base runner???...surely Posey would be among the leaders.. Rog -- You'll be able to find that in the Bill James Annual. IIRC Buster didn't get thrown out an inordinate number of times (except for last season), but he doesn't take the extra base very often. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2767/why-giants-buster-catch?page=1#ixzz3VplB98uv |
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Post by Rog on Mar 29, 2015 21:56:50 GMT -5
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Post by Rog on Mar 29, 2015 22:07:56 GMT -5
dk..It is funny on how our stats guy fails to mention that the "Fielding Bible" experts rate Posey as a minus win as a catcher and he is rated some where down the list for fielding catchers. Rog -- I completely forgot that there is indeed a new Fielding Bible out. Thanks for the reminder I'll have to get my hands on it. I do know that its author, John Dewan, rated Buster the #5 defensive catcher for Bill James' Annual. And frankly, I thought he had his worst defensive season last year. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2767/why-giants-buster-catch?page=1#ixzz3VpmIxTv2 |
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