MFing ridiculous

[sfgdood]

I'm sick up and fed with Hunter Strickland. My heart can't take watching this guy right now. He needs to get his head right in AAA and prove he deserves Bochy's trust

[rxmeister]

It's funny how two people can watch the same thing and come away with different opinions. While Hunter wasn't good, he had everything go wrong that inning. It started with a Duffy error. The walk was unfortunate and inexcusable, but the other two hits were an excuse me opposite field dunk and a slow ground ball that found the perfect spot between SS and third. When he left the game they still had a chance to win, but the kid who replaced him immediately gave up the only well hit ball of the inning, an extra base bomb by Dominguez. However I do agree with your conclusion. He belongs in the minors, he's had a terrible spring as had all their kids. GM's get fired for the kind of minor league system the Giants have, but needless to say the performance of the major league team has earned Sabean a lifetime pass.

[sfgdood]

My opinion wasn't based on the one outing...I'm already sweating just watching Strick walk into a game. It's either tape measure bombs or he can't hit the glove. Yeah he had some buzzards luck last night but he had some pitches that should have been crushed but were missed too.

I disagree with lifetime passes for any GM...it's a what have you done lately business. And you can't just let the farm system go to the crapper like this while at the same time fail with every big FA you pursue. He's lived on the strength of a few great 1st round picks and some very good trades but he can't do it for long with the farm system as it is.

[rxmeister]

I think you hit on the crux of the problem, Dood, although I bring in ownership as the one who mainly has to answer for free agency. The difference is that you're angry about it, but I'm more "three in five years" calm. Rog has pointed out many times about the Giants having one of the highest payrolls and he's correct, but sometimes reality has got to sink in. And that reality is that the Giants have a completely barren farm system, and free agency is their only hope of success. The only way to stay competitive with teams who DO have a thriving minor league system will be to bring their payroll to a level similar to the Yankees and Dodgers level. The Dodgers not only have the highest payroll, but they also have a terrific minor league system, so you'd literally have to go way above their payroll to compete equally, not 50 million below it. And now we have yet another Cuban, Hector Olivera, who is expected to sign in the next couple of days. I've read that the Giants absolutely love the guy, but their offer is significantly less than division rivals LA and San Diego, who both need him less than the Giants do. Like I said, I'm happy with the 3 in 5, but the reality is that those three will be all we ever see, and 3 in 25 doesn't sound that great. I think winning the WS as a wild card may turn out to be the worst thing that ever happened to this team. It makes them think they just have to sneak in, and don't have to spend the money on payroll or improving the minor league scouting department to truly be an elite team. Let's see how long those packed houses in AT&T remain when they're consistently finishing double digits behind the Dodgers.

[Rog]

Mark -- the other two hits were an excuse me opposite field dunk

Rog -- I almost posted the same thing, but giving up the 0-2 hit to the pitcher caused me to hold back.




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[rxmeister]

The pitcher didn't bat in that inning Rog. And don't forget that after the leadoff error he struck out the next hitter. Should have been two outs nobody on. I doubt all hell breaks loose after that.

[sfgdood]

I think winning the WS as a wild card may turn out to be the worst thing that ever happened to this team. It makes them think they just have to sneak in, and don't have to spend the money on payroll or improving the minor league scouting department to truly be an elite team. Let's see how long those packed houses in AT&T remain when they're consistently finishing double digits behind the Dodgers.

Dood - I disagree. I think the Giants always felt this way, but winning this one as a WC makes the fan base as a whole more receptive to their methods. But most of those fair weather newbies have no concept of how the Giants got to this point, nor did they have to suffer through as many agonizing seasons of failure as the rest of us. They have no understanding of what could easily bring the "dynasty" down in the coming years. You can call me angry...I merely see what you do and get very frustrated that management does nothing about it.

[Islandboagie]

With all due respect, Randy, there are teams that use the same strategy you want the Giants to adopt, and yet none of them have won 3 Championships in 5 seasons. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Bochy and Sabean know a little more about creating a dynasty than you. Do you have an example of a team this strategy created multiple Championships for?

I think its pretty hard to win and still have a top notch farm system. I think it's also very expensive to keep your core together and still add top free agents.

Now, I'd love for the Giants to adopt this perfect machine you envision. I just question if it's possible during an extended period.

[sfgdood]

With all due respect, Randy, there are teams that use the same strategy you want the Giants to adopt, and yet none of them have won 3 Championships in 5 seasons. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Bochy and Sabean know a little more about creating a dynasty than you.

Dood - I just told you how they did it. I may not know details of getting there, but let's not forget the Giants failed under Sabean for many years (even with Bonds) before they found their success. Basically they hit the motherload in the draft for a few years, made some good trades and had the right manager to get his players to buy in. But the drafts have been mediocre at best lately so it most likely wont be long until we're back to where we were BEFORE the "dynasty" began unless something changes quickly.




I think its pretty hard to win and still have a top notch farm system. I think it's also very expensive to keep your core together and still add top free agents.

Dood - I agree with the second part, not the first. Drafting well has nothing to do with how awful your major league team is. Look at the Cardinals and the Dodgers.




Now, I'd love for the Giants to adopt this perfect machine you envision. I just question if it's possible during an extended period.

Dood - Mostly it takes some extensive and brutally honest self scouting. It takes knowing how weak your farm system is and how flawed your development team is...and especially how failed your FA negotiating methods are. Then you need to have the cajones to do what it takes to change things, even if it means shit-canning some close friends. But Rx is right that the recent success can make the self scouting very difficult.

[Rog]

Mark -- The pitcher didn't bat in that inning Rog. And don't forget that after the leadoff error he struck out the next hitter.

Rog -- For some reason I thought it was the pitcher. That makes it better. I'm not as upset by an 0-2 hit by a regular batter as Boly is. Here's why.

Opponents hit .132/.142/1.92/.334 against the Giants last season on the 0-2 count. After 0-2 they hit .159/.190/.252/.442. Hitters hit BETTER after the 0-2 count than on it. That tells me if anything, the Giants' pitchers should have been MORE aggressive on the 0-2 count, which would result in a few more better pitches to hit, but also more outs on 0-2 itself.

As odd as it seems, Giants' pitchers with 0-2 counts fared BETTER when the batter swung at the very next pitch than when he didn't. After 1-2, batters hit even slightly better -- .171/.218/.265/.483, which means that if the Giants' pitcher threw a ball on the 0-2 pitch, he fared worse than if he didn't.

The other side of the coin is that Giants pitching no doubt recorded some outs with 0-2 pitches that were outside the strike zone. That probably evens it out a bit. But I see no evidence that the Giants' pitchers weren't pitching carefully enough on 0-2 counts.

Certainly not enough to get upset about.

An 0-2 hit is galling. Even a 1-2 hit isn't as upsetting. But the 1-2 hits are just as costly, and there are slightly more of them (.159/.174/.231/.404).

It has even been said here that pitchers should be fined for giving up hits on the 0-2 pitch. The evidence indicates that would be a bad case of over-managing.

Does the 0-2 hit drag the team down more than a hit after 0-2? Maybe so, and perhaps that could be a reason against the 0-2 hit. But that's merely guessing.

It would be intriguing to see how teams fared in innings after an 0-2 pitch was a hit compared to innings in which a hit or walk occurred on a subsequent pitch. That type of study could be done, but I have no knowledge that it has been.

Anyone care to guess? I have an idea, but mine is at best an educated guess. Here it is.

I heard from what I believe to be a reliable source that more runs score after an error than after a walk than after a hit. (The first two might be reversed.) My guess would be that is because errors can indicate an unsettled team; walks can indicate a lack of control; and hits are more a normal part of the game.

So I would guess that more runs would score after a 0-2 hit than after a 1-2 count (which would include more walks and hits).

By the way, I know this kind of stuff can be harder to read and to accept. But it is worth the effort, since it helps us uncover facts that can be revealing.




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[Islandboagie]

I think its pretty hard to win and still have a top notch farm system. I think it's also very expensive to keep your core together and still add top free agents.

Dood - I agree with the second part, not the first. Drafting well has nothing to do with how awful your major league team is. Look at the Cardinals and the Dodgers.

Boagie- The Dodgers haven't won a World Series since 1988, and if you compare the Giants and Dodgers drafted players who have become quality major league players in the last 7 or so years, the Giants come out on top.

The Cardinals have had similar success as the Giants, but again, if you compare over the last 7 years of the draft, the Giants still look better.

[sfgdood]

I'll bet you that trend reverses itself starting now...as I said before, the Giants made hey with some drafts quite a ways back but going by what are in the systems right now, both the Dodgers and Cards will have far better ML talent than we will. Oh and even though the Dodgers have failed in the playoffs lately, they have qualified for them in 3 years out of 4, missing the playoffs less than the Giants in that span of time, including besting the Giants during the regular season in '11, '13 and '14.

[Islandboagie]

Pretty sure the Giants had a better record in 2011. The Diamondbacks came in first, Giants finished in second place, Dodgers third.

I don't care how often the Dodgers have made it to the post-season over the past few years, if they don't win it all, it doesn't matter. That's like saying the 2000-2003 Giants were more successful than the current team.

I'm amazed at how little importance Giants fans put in winning Championships, even after a 50+ year drought. Even after the 2002 disappointment. It seems like the fans are taking it for granted. They forget how it was before Bochy. This is the golden age of Giants baseball and I'm enjoying every second of it. And our fans have the nerve to compare what the Giants have done to what the Dodgers have done and somehow find a way to give the edge to the Dodgers??? Disgusting.

We might have to start calling you Randy the Dodger.

[sfgdood]

I was responding to your comment, "it's hard to win and still have a top notch farm system." I totally disagree. Throughout the history of this game there have been very good teams that still maintained good farm systems. Anyone can easily find numerous examples of this and I named just two recent examples.

You are correct about 2011...the Dodgers were even more putrid than we were that year. My bad.

[sfgdood]

I don't care how often the Dodgers have made it to the post-season over the past few years, if they don't win it all, it doesn't matter. That's like saying the 2000-2003 Giants were more successful than the current team.

I'm amazed at how little importance Giants fans put in winning Championships, even after a 50+ year drought. Even after the 2002 disappointment. It seems like the fans are taking it for granted. They forget how it was before Bochy. This is the golden age of Giants baseball and I'm enjoying every second of it. And our fans have the nerve to compare what the Giants have done to what the Dodgers have done and somehow find a way to give the edge to the Dodgers??? Disgusting.

We might have to start calling you Randy the Dodger.

Dood - call me names if it suits you...I don't give a rat's ass. I owned up to my hatred of the Dodgers even as Rog was rooting for them in the playoffs. And hated as the Dodgers are, it is a FACT that they have bested us two years in a row for Top Dog in the division. You can either accept that or dismiss it, your choice. But they are winning and while doing so they have still managed to keep a very good farm system and sign great international talent to boot.

I love and appreciate every minute of the titles won...but at the same time it would be foolish to ignore the fact that last year's postseason run nearly ended before it began...or that we lost huge chunks of the offense in the offseason, replacing them with small slivers...or that injuries, either held over from last year or incurred this spring are adding to the question marks this year. I refuse to be a sycophantic rah rah fan...I'm going to hold my team accountable when they let the farm system go to pot or when they let every worthwhile FA slip through their fingers. I'd like to see the team avoid the odd year funk but it's not looking great.

So again, call me all the names you want...I just want to see the team continue to be great and I'm not going to be satisfied with what we saw in 2011 and 2013.

[Rog]

Dood - I just told you how they did it. I may not know details of getting there, but let's not forget the Giants failed under Sabean for many years (even with Bonds) before they found their success.

Rog -- Actually, the Giants were quite successful during the Bonds era. It is true that they never won a World Series, but they were usually in the hunt. I don't know what the Giants' winning percentage was in the Bonds years, but I'll bet it was at least .525. I'm pretty certain that it was better than the Giants' winning percentage since -- even including postseason games.

If we want to criticize Sabean, we should criticize him for the team he put around Bonds. The past six seasons he's put together a pretty good team.

When Barry Bonds went down in 2005, the Giants weren't very good the next four seasons. Since then, they've been pretty good. But not as good as the Giants from 1997 through 2004. Those teams averaged over 90 wins a season, something the Giants have accomplished only twice since.

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[Rog]

Randy -- I was responding to your comment, "it's hard to win and still have a top notch farm system." I totally disagree. Throughout the history of this game there have been very good teams that still maintained good farm systems. Anyone can easily find numerous examples of this and I named just two recent examples.

Rog -- If one can easily find numerous examples, why are you giving us only two? I think it is certainly right that it is possible to have both a fine team and a fine farm system, but I agree with Boagie that it's hard.

If more than two teams accomplish it every year I would be surprised. And it gets even harder to maintain that high standard over time.

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[Rog]

Randy -- But they are winning and while doing so they have still managed to keep a very good farm system and sign great international talent to boot.

Rog -- I've got to agree with you here. That they are spending far more money than any other team might be helping their cause.




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