Pagan

[Islandboagie]

Angel is done. He had all off season to recover, if he hasn't yet, he never will. Sabean needs to shop Hector Sanchez and Adrianza and pick up an outfielder.

[Rog]

Boagie -- Sabean needs to shop Hector Sanchez and Adrianza and pick up an outfielder.

Rog -- You can be sure the Giants already have their feelers out. But it is going to take much more than Sanchez and Adrianza to acquire what they need. The suggestion is good in that it could be enough for a player to platoon with Blanco, but center fielders are tough to come by. Just ask the Padres' Wil Myers.

We had hoped they would pick up over the winter a right-handed hitting outfielder such as Chris Denorfia. Denorfia might make a decent platoon partner for Blanco, but the Giants apparently felt his $2.6 million price tag was too much. Denorfia signed January 5th with the Cubs.

Did we mention that center fielders are tough to find. Blanco isn't the end of the world out there though. The Giants won a Series of the same name with him. But the Giants' outfield depth without Pagan is woefully shallow. Juan Perez would be the Giants' top right-hand hitting outfielder off the bench or for platoon usage. Neither Hunter Pence nor Nori Aoki appears to be much of a center fielder.

For now, we simply have to pray for Pagan. (We've probably prayed for pagans before, even if only ourselves.) The good news is that the Giants are no doubt doing more. The bad news is that center fielders seem to be few and far between. Which also translates to expensive.

One more complication: Aside from Andrew Susac, the best the Giants have to trade may be one of their minor league starters. Looking ahead, it would be wonderful if one of those starters could help the Giants replace the two Tim's in 2016. That would leave money to sign one of the big-name free agent pitchers that may flood the market, if there is such a thing as a flood -- or even much more than a trickle -- in the free agent pitching market.

If they are forced to replace Pagan, I would think the Giants would try to deal Sanchez and Adrianza as mentioned, but would need to make one or more of the young pitchers the center piece(s) of the trade. The way the Giants might be forced to go would be to trade Andrew Susac.

I've forgotten his name, but the Giants do have a 2nd-round pick catching in the low minors. Susac himself was a 2nd-round pick. A younger catcher would better fit any plans the Giants have for moving Buster Posey down the line.

Let's hope Pagan can make it back and stay back once he gets back. The alternatives aren't appealing.



Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2764/pagan#ixzz3UwAr8J8o

[Islandboagie]

I don't see Denorfia as an upgrade over what we already have. I'd rather see what Brown can do. Denorfia is not a great defender, has very little power and last year he had an obp of less than .300. I see nothing that interests me there.

[klaiggeb]

I'm with you, Boagie... except for the Brown part. As far as I'm concerned, he's a right handed version of Blanco.

Denorfia is a platoon guy at best, not an everyday player.

Don't know who we could shop, or even who is available, I just know that Pagan and his back problems won't go away. Back problems never do.

We need to move forward and find someone to replace him. I just don't see Brown as that guy.

boly

[Islandboagie]

I'm not suggesting Brown is the answer, Boly. But I would prefer him over Denorfia. Brown is better defensively, faster and his offense is an unknown, which seems a more interesting option than what Denorfia would give us.

I still think Brown will have a more substantial major league career than most people are expecting. I could see him developing into a Chris Denorfia (in his prime) type, with better speed and defense, I'd take that.

[Rog]

Boly -- I'm with you, Boagie... except for the Brown part. As far as I'm concerned, he's a right handed version of Blanco.

Rog -- If Gary turns into a right-handed version of Gregor, I will be excited. That's fairly close to his ceiling IMO, although I still hold out the tiniest hope he could be a 3rd- or 4th quartile starter.

If Gary were even a 4th-quartile starter, I think this conversation would be of a slightly less concerned nature. I still have a hard time how low you hold Gregor, Boly. Gregor is a mediocre hitter, but he's very good defensively and a good base runner who can steal bases.

Knowing how highly you value speed and defense, I'm almost shocked that you seem to think he's barely good enough to be on a major league roster. IIRC you chose Tyler Colvin over Gregor early last season. That's pretty low esteem.

How many 4th outfielders can you name who are better and can play all three outfield positions well? We might be able to count that list on one hand.

Last season Gregor hit .260/.333/..374/.707. Angel hit .300/.342/.389/.731. With Gregor's clearly better defense, one could argue that he wasn't all that far behind Pagan.

It was only one season, but it was one in which Angel hit .300.

Would I rather have a healthy Pagan than a healthy Blanco? Like pretty much everyone else in the baseball world, I would. But that there's even room for a discussion would indicate that Gregor must not be too bad in his actual role of 4th outfielder.

Here's even something that could allow one to argue that Gregor isn't all that much worse than Angel. Over the past three seasons, Gregor's Baseball-Reference WAR is 5.8. Angel's is 6.1. Gregor has had 31 more plate appearances.

Let's see how Fan Graphs sees it. Fan Graphs has Gregor at 7.2 WAR, while it sees Pagan at 7.7. In neither case is it a wipe out.

WAR may overvalue defense. (It's hard to know just how much defense is worth. Baseball-Reference gives Gregor a 2.2 win defensive advantage over Angel. Has Gregor been that much better than Angel in the field? At this time we have no way of knowing.

But the measures are objective, which you and I aren't. We would agree that Angel is the better, but how many wins is it likely to provide? We agree Gregor is the better fielder, but again, how many wins does it mean?

WE complain about Gregor's swinging wildly, and he could certainly improve in that area. Yet he makes about one more out per season of 500 at bats than Angel does. And somehow last season he averaged more bases per hit than Angel!

It doesn't seem to be a wipe out at all. By chance, there is an article at Golden Gate Sports assessing Gregor's value as a fourth outfielder. I haven't read it yet. I'm going to copy it in the next reply. Can you imagine what a coincidence this is? Maybe they will agree with you, Boly. Maybe they'll agree with me. Maybe they'll be somewhere in the middle.

It should be fun to find out! For at least three weeks or so of the season, it will make a considerable difference.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2764/pagan#ixzz3UxCXlvSt

[Rog]

Here is the article. I still haven't read it, but I'll comment on it in my next post.

Gregor Blanco is always ready to step in for the San Francisco Giants. In the past few years, Blanco has entered the regular season as the fourth outfielder. In past offseasons, the Giants have either found another outfielder that is more of an offensive threat, which makes them a stronger candidate for a starting role and moves Blanco to the fourth outfielder role, or the Giants have found someone to platoon with Blanco.

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Blanco enters 2015 in the same situation, as the Giants signed Nori Aoki in the offseason, and Aoki will be the everyday outfielder.

However, with Hunter Pence‘s injury, Blanco will now be the Opening Day right fielder. This won’t be a major transition for him though, as he has experience in AT&T Park’s tricky right field and he’s filled in for injured starters many times before.

With Melky Cabrera‘s suspension in 2012, with Angel Pagan‘s injuries in 2013 and 2014 (and now in this year’s Spring Training), with Michael Morse‘s struggles defensively, Blanco has always been there to pick up the pieces and start whenever he’s needed.

Blanco might not have overly impressive stats as a starting outfielder, but as a fourth outfielder, he is an incredibly valuable asset to the Giants.

He has an incredible ability to stay ready and focused in whatever role he will play, whether he’s a late-inning defensive replacement, whether he’s a spot starter, or whether he’s a consistent starter. This is an extremely underrated and underappreciated skill that not many players possess.

Underappreciated. That describes Blanco perfectly.

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Blanco possesses highly valuable skills for a fourth outfielder such as his reliability and his ability to play all three outfield spots. Blanco appeared in 141 games in 2012 and in 2013 and 146 games in 2014. That’s rare for a typical MLB player but even more rare for a “fourth outfielder.”

Blanco can not only play all three outfield spots, but he also plays great defense at all three positions, even while playing in a tough outfield such as right field at AT&T Park. He has the speed to play center field, and he has the instincts and strong, accurate arm to play any outfield position.

Blanco might be somewhat of a forgotten man to some Giants fans, but the best player on the Giants, Buster Posey, greatly appreciates Blanco and what he’s contributed to the Giants’ three World Series titles. John Shea of the San Francisco Chronicle with the report:

“As much as Gregor has put in the last three years,” catcher Buster Posey said, “I don’t know if he’s the prototypical bench guy.”

…

“The thing that stands out for me is the versatility, the ability to play all three positions at such a high level,” Posey said. “He’s always ready. Whether he’s playing or not, he’s ready to go. Great attitude, always. Obviously a big part of the success we’ve had.”

Brandon Crawford and Matt Cain agreed with Posey and also praised Blanco, according to Shea:

Of all the outfielders in camp, Blanco would be trusted the most to defend Pence’s position. He’d have Matt Cain’s vote. Right field is where Blanco played when making his famous diving catch to preserve Cain’s perfect game in June 2012.

“We forget sometimes he was the right fielder that day,” shortstop Brandon Crawford said, “because he was basically in center field when he caught it. There aren’t many guys who play all three positions that well.”

Cain added, “He might not play for a while, and his defensive skills are on all the time. That’s rare to come upon. He doesn’t lose his step.”

Blanco will be called upon yet again while Pence is out with his injury, and he might even have to fill in at center field once Pence comes back if Pagan is still dealing with back issues that haunted him last season and have kept him out of Spring Training games recently.

But Blanco will be ready, as he always is. Blanco said that he prepares himself for every situation, and that’s why he’s so valuable to the Giants. He will be prepared no matter what, and he will fill in admirably, no matter what adversity he faces.

Blanco is truly the ideal fourth outfielder because of the various skills that he brings.

[Rog]

I didn't expect the article to be as positive as it was. (And I was prepared to have it agree with Boly.)

Posey's and Cain's comments were strong, although we certainly expect them to criticize Blanco. They always have the chance though to say "no comment."

Personally I'm truly glad the Giants have Gregor. It's the FIFTH and even SIXTH outfielders I'm concerned about.

[Rog]

As far as Angel's being done, not quite yet. His latest injury is to the other side of the back, and the Giants don't appear (or at least aren't admitting to be) concerned about it.

Another thing I got from listening to Bobby Evans today is that the Giants could well opt for Hector Sanchez and Ehire Adrianza over Andrew Susac and Matt Duffy. The reason? They believe that young prospects should be playing every day at least part of the time.

To be honest, I think that's a good idea.

[sfgdood]

I heard Krukow say the same thing about Pagan's latest back issue being a "good thing" since it's not in the same area of the back as before. To me, that's pouring sugar over a pile of dog shit. Now we have two separate back issues we need to worry about with Angel instead of just one. Not good.

[Islandboagie]

I agree 100% with the article, Rog. Blanco has always done a nice job of picking up some of the slack but gets alot of the blame from fans when the Giants struggle. It's one of those curious opinions from the Giants fans. Kind of like moving the best catcher in baseball to another position.

[rxmeister]

Peter Gammons said the Giants are looking at Tyler Moore, who is out of options with the Nationals. He hasn't done much in the majors, but hit 31 homeruns twice in the minors. Otherwise, Bochy is talking about shifting Duffy, Duvall or even Belt to the outfield. Get someone, please, Sabes before Bochy does something stupid!

[Rog]

Boagie -- It's one of those curious opinions from the Giants fans. Kind of like moving the best catcher in baseball to another position.

Rog -- I understand the idea of moving Buster to third base. It protects his health. It eliminates the frequent choice of having either his bat or Belt's but not both in the lineup. It give Susac a chance to prove himself, with a decent backup in Sanchez. It would have saved money for another position (such as stud pitcher or power-hitting left fielder).

But the Giants like Posey's leadership behind the plate, many of their pitchers like the way he calls the game, and Posey himself is very strong in his opinion that he's a catcher and would like to stay one as long as he can.

I feel very strongly both ways!



Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2764/pagan#ixzz3UyosVHKc

[Rog]

Mark -- Peter Gammons said the Giants are looking at Tyler Moore, who is out of options with the Nationals. He hasn't done much in the majors, but hit 31 homeruns twice in the minors.

Rog -- Moore is something of a pauper's Morse. It would be great if he were more than Morse, but he clearly is less. Morse struck out more than once every four minor league at bats and didn't walk much. The 31 homers are enticing, but we also shouldn't forget that none other than Todd Linden knocked 30 in AAA.

I was going to say that for a power hitter I like the Silver Hammer better, but Maxwell has struck out once every 2.7 at bats in the majors. I don't think I've heard of anyone that bad. Even in the minors he fanned once every 3.2 AB's. Among all the competitors, I'll take Juan Perez. The Giants may come up with someone else, but I don't think it's Maxwell, and there's almost less chance of Moore.

Mark -- Otherwise, Bochy is talking about shifting Duffy, Duvall or even Belt to the outfield. Get someone, please, Sabes before Bochy does something stupid!

Rog -- The moves mentioned in the paragraph immediately above are very unattractive.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2764/pagan?page=1#ixzz3UyqVdj46

[rxmeister]

Linden's numbers were put up in the HR friendly PCL, just like Pedro Feliz' and Adam Duvall's. Moore's HR totals were in less friendly leagues, although they were lower level. When has a Giants prospect put up 30 HR seasons in A ball or AA? Doesn't happen. I think Moore's power is legit, but he doesn't get a chance in Washington because they like their big money FA's. He's not Hunter Pence, but he can help. Plus, we can make fun of his name! It's just too easy! (Mary) Tyler Moore!