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Post by klaiggeb on Mar 18, 2015 9:39:00 GMT -5
Bochy reiterated a point some of us have made here; things don't look good, and with 3 weeks or so to go before the season starts there are reasons for concerns.
Big reasons!
Yes, we're a veteran team, but an ERA of over 6? And NOT scoring a lot of runs?
Right now... right now, things don't look good, and honestly, they are going the way I thought they would; pitchers getting hammered.
Just my opinion, but I think we're seeing a harbinger of things to come.
boly
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Post by Rog on Mar 18, 2015 9:57:24 GMT -5
You could be right, even though everyone here (including you) hopes you aren't. I see reason for concern.
But when the Giants were the 2nd-worst team for more than two months of the regular season last year, was that cause for even more concern? And that one turned out pretty well.
My point is that while I agree there is reason for concern, the only thing we know for sure is that you just never know.
Things look bad. But as bad as they looked 7 months ago?
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sfgdood
Long time member 
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Mar 18, 2015 11:38:35 GMT -5
ANY time a team looks this bad or as bad as it was those two months last year it is definitely cause for concern. The usually calm and even keel Bochy knows it. Boly knows it...it's easy to see. The advantage last year's team had was before it went south, they started out red hot. With Pence and Pagan out, Bumgarner and other pitchers being coddled or hammered, this year is not going to be a hot start. Let's just face facts...as Boly says RIGHT NOW it looks ugly. And I don't mean just slightly homely...I mean mirror-cracking FUGLY!
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Post by Rog on Mar 18, 2015 11:59:32 GMT -5
Randy -- ANY time a team looks this bad or as bad as it was those two months last year it is definitely cause for concern. The usually calm and even keel Bochy knows it. Boly knows it...it's easy to see. The advantage last year's team had was before it went south, they started out red hot. With Pence and Pagan out, Bumgarner and other pitchers being coddled or hammered, this year is not going to be a hot start. Let's just face facts...as Boly says RIGHT NOW it looks ugly. And I don't mean just slightly homely...I mean mirror-cracking FUGLY! Rog -- Of course it is. And indeed it cause for great concern. But less so than the two months last season when the Giants were nearly as bad as they've been the past three weeks. That was the regular season! We shouldn't ignore, but if we overreact, we might be like you in August of 2012, Randy, and give up on the season. You never have explained that one, which might be the biggest gaffe in board history. You didn't learn from that? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2763/bochys-unrest#ixzz3Ul0wTNqN |
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Post by Rog on Mar 18, 2015 12:03:59 GMT -5
In short, the Giants' preseason has been cause for concern -- but not for overreaction. I don't think Boly overreacted.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Mar 18, 2015 12:23:47 GMT -5
You're just going to beat that dead horse forever aren't you? I've explained it, admitted I was wrong repeatedly but you just wont let it go. So be it. I don't really care what you think anymore because anytime I have your argument beaten you will just pull out the "August 2012" card. What a douche
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Post by Islandboagie on Mar 18, 2015 14:47:23 GMT -5
Stop trying to bait Randy, Rog. Randy has acknowledged the fact that he was wrong. Just give it up, Rog. Do you even know how to give up? If you need a reference guide, perhaps Randy giving up in August of 2012 would be a good choice.
Just kidding, Randy.
Seriously though, I wasn't that optimistic on the Giants chances in the post-season in 2012 either, because they kept getting beat badly by good teams and winning against teams under .500. Obviously that wasn't going to bode well in the post-season, but somehow they turned that around after they were on the ropes.
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Post by rxmeister on Mar 20, 2015 18:24:06 GMT -5
The biggest gaffe in board history is me seeing Clayton Kershaw as a rookie and saying his stuff wasn't that good and he was overrated. How dare you give my bonehead award to Dood!
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Mar 20, 2015 19:43:04 GMT -5
No worries, Rx...Rog has the top 100 spots on the arrogant douchebag posts list
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Post by Rog on Mar 20, 2015 20:57:04 GMT -5
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Post by Rog on Mar 20, 2015 20:59:59 GMT -5
Mark -- The biggest gaffe in board history is me seeing Clayton Kershaw as a rookie and saying his stuff wasn't that good and he was overrated. Rog -- It has to rank right up there! It does point something out though. When we see a brief sample of someone (or even a larger one), we tend to react by the results, which may not indicate what the player actually has. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2763/bochys-unrest?page=1#ixzz3UyuIPd1R |
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Post by rxmeister on Mar 21, 2015 7:28:32 GMT -5
In my case I think my assessment was based on my Giants fan partiality instead of reality. I wanted him to be overrated so I saw what I wanted to see. All the comparisons to when Timmy came up made me angry, and Timmy definitely had better stuff when he first came up, which is how I formed my opinion. Needless to say, Timmy's stuff declined quickly while Kershaw's stuff got better and better. Timmy threw 99 when he first came up, but now throws 90. Kershaw threw 95, but still does. And of course he gained much better control of his other pitches.
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Post by Rog on Mar 22, 2015 11:42:57 GMT -5
When you saw Kershaw, he was making his second major league start and was only 20 years, 2 months, 11 days old. It was just less than two years since he had been drafted out of high school. Two starts before, he had been pitching in AA.
Indeed he wasn't very impressive. His three strikes swinging was the 2nd-worst of his career, and he gave up five hit, four walks and a homer in 3.2 innings.
If we remember back to Tim Lincecum's debut, which had come a year and 24 days earlier, Tim wore #55, pitching in the the 5th inning, struck out five, walked five and allowed five earned runs. But he LOOKED very impressive. Tim was also coming off a 0.29 ERA in five AAA starts.
You might be able to tell us what Kershaw threw that day, Mark, but I can tell you that Tim threw 100 pitches in his debut, 85 of them fastballs and only 53 of them for strikes. Tim's first pitch was 99 mph, and his second was either 100 (as I remember it) or 101 (as my friend sitting with me remembers it). The crowd was electric.
It was in Tim's next start that he began having success. And that success continued until his final start of the 2011 season.
Although I'm pretty objective today, I remember a similar experience lacking objectivity in Spring Training, 1974. Chris Speier's wife Aleta asked me what I thought of the guy who had just taken infield practice at shortstop for the Brewers. Having taken almost no notice of the player and not wanting any young player to compare to Chris, I told her I didn't think much of the guy.
There was a reason she had asked. The guy at shortstop that infield practice would go on to start at shortstop that year for the Brewers.
Getting back to Kershaw, one could argue that no pitcher in history has been as good through his age 26 season as Kershaw has. Clayton was only about average that rookie season in which you saw him, walking 52 batters in 107.2 innings and posting a 4.26 ERA. In his six seasons since, his ERA has averaged a tick or two below 2.35. One could easily argue that those six seasons were the top consecutive six in Dodgers history.
Kershaw has clearly conquered his early control issues. Last season in 90.2 innings more innings than in his rookie campaign, he walked 21 batters fewer. As great as Mike Trout is, many if not most consider Kershaw to be the best player in the game today.
He's really been knocked around this Spring Training. His ERA is up from the past two season's 1.83 and 1.77 to a more visible 2.03. In 25 career starts and one relief appearance against the Giants, Kershaw has gone 14-5 with a 1.43 ERA.
Clayton just turned 27 three says ago and has pitched only seven seasons, but if he stays healthy and pitches for another 10 years or so, he might rival Lefty Grove as the top southpaw (or even the top pitcher, which some consider Grove to be) in history. Grove's ERA of 3.06 doesn't look that phenomenal, but he pitched in a hitters' era and posted a 148 career ERA+.
Kershaw himself pitched in some of the steroid years, and his 2.48 ERA is good enough for a 151 ERA+, which places him behind only Pedro Martinez's 154 ERA+ among all starting pitchers ever. Madison Bumgarner himself has established himself as one of the top southpaws today, perhaps ranking behind only Kershaw, so the NL West has as strong a position among southpaws in the NL West as Koufax and Marichal had among all major league pitchers in the early to mid 60's.
As mentioned, Kershaw just turned 27, while Bumgarner is still just 25 for another four plus months. Here's one way of looking at it. So far Kershaw has been about as good as any regular season pitcher has been, and Bumgarner has been about as good as any postseason pitcher ever.
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