Pablo

[klaiggeb]

Here is an except from Giant Report: There was very little Giants reaction to Sandoval’s comments in a Bleacher Report article in which he said he felt so disrespected by management in contract talks last spring that he made up his mind even then that he’d depart as a free agent.


The Giants didn't react, but I will, and most of you won't like it.


Pablo, you are a lying, deceitful, unethical wad of green horse snot!

You stood up at the parade in front of all of us Giant fans and you SAID you wanted to remain a Giant forever when you knew, you KNEW you had no plans to come back.

I am a military veteran who joined during wartime knowing up front, I could forfeit my life.

I lost friends during the Vietnam war.

I lost students during the Iraq war.

To me, honor and integrity are not just words. They stand for something; something you don't seem to understand.

And you demonstrated that have neither.


I have no time, none, for people who willfully lie, or mislead others, and you did both.

You lack ethics, you lack integrity, and what you did is unforgiveable.

I will always remember the good you did for us, but since you just spit in the face of your fans who spent tons of money buying Panda paraphernalia, I have zero respect for you.

Zero.

None.

Nada.

Zip

What you did for us will always be tempered and measured by the lies you told when you left, and the people you deceived.



With that lie, with that lack of integrity, with that purposeful lack of honor, you showed all of us just how you feel.



And because of that, I hope you fall flat on your face in Boston.

Up yours!

boly

[sfgdood]

I defended him before but I can't really defend this one. From his own mouth he knew that he wouldn't resign here last offseason after the Giants lowballed him. This is not to say what he said doesn't provide insight into why Brian Sabean fails so miserably with FA negotiations. But all along there was an element of disingenuousness to what Pablo was feeding to the media.

That said, I could never feel bad about nor wish ill will towards any player that was an integral part in bringing two world series titles to SF (and a smaller role in a third). There's no doubt in my mind that without the contributions of Pablo, 2012 and 2014 would NOT have ended in a parade. For that reason I have no anger towards him...just lots of disappointment.

[Islandboagie]

I would have agreed with your opinion here before yesterday, Randy. I had no hard feelings towards any player that left before.

I thought the way the fans acted when Cody Ross came back to AT&T in a Diamondbacks jersey was stupid. He deserved a standing ovation, not boos.

Brian Wilson had the blowup and said he wanted to be a Dodger, but I still had no hard feelings. In the end he was great with the Giants and bad with the Dodgers. I still think of him as the guy who struck out Nelson Cruz to bring the first WS title to San Francisco.

Jose Uribe also became a Dodger, but as we saw when he came back and his ex-teammates embraced him when he got his ring, he still loved his teammates and the fans. I will never forget what he did for the Giants.

Edgar Renteria, same story. He was clutch and while he thought he was worth more than $1 million, he will still go down as a great Giant.

All these players have something in common. None of them said what Pablo said. None of them spit in the face of their ex-teammates. That's stupid behavior.

I have always been one of the guys to support the Giants stance on Pablo's weight issues. I believe ALL athletes should be in good physical shape, but I still loved Pablo and wanted the Giants to resign him. But not anymore.

I do agree that having any ill feelings of players who had an impact on any of our 3 championship seasons is not acceptable. That's why I now have a problem with Sandoval, because he obviously has ill feelings towards ALOT of players. That's unacceptable, so I've waived my stance that I've previously stuck to.

I say good riddance, I'm glad that fake fatass is gone, and I just became a big Casey McGehee fan.

[sfgdood]

All these players have something in common. None of them said what Pablo said. None of them spit in the face of their ex-teammates. That's stupid behavior.

Dood - agreed except as to Brian Wilson...his behavior at AT&T--in front of God and all the tv cameras--towards Larry Baer was pathetic and bush league.

[klaiggeb]

Boagie:

I say good riddance, I'm glad that fake fatass is gone, and I just became a big Casey McGehee fan.

***boly says***

Bingo!

I totally agree!

go Casey!

I can't wait to see.... wait for it... here it comes...."Casey at the bat..."

boly

[Islandboagie]

All these players have something in common. None of them said what Pablo said. None of them spit in the face of their ex-teammates. That's stupid behavior.

Dood - agreed except as to Brian Wilson...his behavior at AT&T--in front of God and all the tv cameras--towards Larry Baer was pathetic and bush league.


Boagie- I'm still not sure if that was an act or not. The point is, that didn't change my feeling on Wilson. He never disrespected his teammates or the fans.

[sfgdood]

Boagie- I'm still not sure if that was an act or not. The point is, that didn't change my feeling on Wilson. He never disrespected his teammates or the fans.

Dood - if you say Pablo disrespected fans (I haven't seen one quote where he negatively mentions fans specifically) then you must say Wilson did also since his behavior was very publicly on display in front of 40,000 SF fans in the home stadium and aimed at the Giants President

[Islandboagie]

He said he'd only miss Bochy and Pence in San Francisco, no mention of missing the fans. He even had about 24 hours to think about his comments and retract or clarify, he chose to stick by his comments from yesterday. He loves Boston, glad he's not in San Francisco anymore, and no mention of missing anyone but Bochy and Pence. You of all people, who supported Pablo no matter what, should take that personal. I know I do. I live here in Seattle, I plan on going to a Mariners, Redsox game and getting some 3rd base seats sometime this season.

[Rog]

I still like Pablo. He was an important Giant for six-plus seasons. If he could perform the next six years the way he has performed in career to date, I would have been willing to pay $25 million a season for him. The problem is that since 2011, he has declined. He's declined four of the past five seasons. He's only 28, but he may be playing on legs that are effectively five years older than that.

As for his going completely against his parade comments, I think he simply got caught up in the moment. He gave the Giants 11 years. He's probably the second-best third baseman they have had in San Francisco (although Jimmy Ray Hart and Jimmy Davenport could also make decent claims).

I'll miss him a lot. I just wouldn't have paid him what he got from the Red Sox (even though the Giants apparently were willing to go higher). The guy is essentially a platoon player. A very good platoon player, to be sure, but a platoon player nonetheless.

Now, when Pablo came up, he actually hit lefties better than righties. He might be able to bounce back. But he's been LOUSY against southpaws over the past five seasons. His OPS against lefties is below .650 over those five seasons. That's not acceptable for a corner infielder.

Let's put it this way: Gregor Blanco has been a clearly better hitter against southpaws during his Giants career than Pablo has been in the same period. And Gregor bats left-handed. If I were Pablo and didn't bounce back nicely this year against southpaws, I would give significant consideration to batting solely left-handed, as J.T. Snow did later in his career.

J.T. was so lousy against southpaws that he made the change. And he was just about as bad hitting righty against lefty pitchers as Pablo has been the past five seasons.

I would like to have someone show me how the past five seasons Pablo has been more than a platoon player. Joaquin Arias has hit lefties clearly better than Pablo, and Joaquin has often replaced Pablo for late-inning defense. Sounds to me like a great situation for a platoon.

Is a (very good) platoon player worth 5/$95? Is a player with considerable health issues worth 5/$95?

Let's suppose the Giants had re-signed Pablo and added Aoki and Vogelsong. Would that be better than having McGehee, Aoki, Peavy, Vogelsong and Romo? The cost per season would be about the same. The difference would be that after two years the Giants would owe Pablo something like $60 million, while as it stands, they can cut ties with each of the players they re-signed or acquired if they so choose.

The Giants certainly aren't as strong at third base as if they had Pablo. But they're almost certainly have a stronger rotation and a better bullpen.

I like Pablo, regardless of what he said. I can easily forgive him for that. What is the old saying about sticks and stones?

But Pablo just isn't that good a player. He's roughly about the 10th best third baseman in baseball. I don't think there are many who would rank him in the top five, and I don't think there are many who would rank him as being below average. He's a good third baseman.

How good he will be in five years is a big question mark. I think the answer to the $95 million question should be no.

[Rog]

Did you follow Tim lincecum as he was growing up, Boagie? I think for years he got short (no pun) shrift because of his size, but he became an excellent high school pitcher. And at U Dub, he was outstanding.

I must confess I knew next to nothing about him until the Giants drafted him, but I learned a ton about him in the next three months. I take pride that I saw more of his minor league career than all but a handful of fans and even of Giants personnel.

When Tim came to the majors on 5/6/7, I'm not sure there were any fans who knew more about him than I.

Despite that, I'm as baffled as anyone as to what happened to him the past three seasons. I just hope his dad really helped him this winter. As we would expect, Chris is optimistic. Tim seems to be, as well. And some of whether he recovers or not may simply boil down to confidence.

I truly believe Tim has been as baffled by the events of the past three seasons as the rest of us.

[Islandboagie]

Timmy was pretty big here when he was with UW. The local sports media also followed his development and MLB debut pretty closely. I recall talking about this before here, but I could be wrong.

As for Pablo...I think this is an example of why some people believe you only care about the stats. The topic is about the comments he made, yet you still want to continue to discuss his decline since 2011. The comments he made don't even seem to remotely bother you. Why is that? Have you ever been emotional during a game? I'm usually pretty reserved during games, but a few moments have brought me to the brink of tears. I'm thinking that's why Pablo's comments bother me.

[rxmeister]

All we've heard about the Giants these years is about their great chemistry, so it's shocking to hear Pablo's comments. It's also easy to dismiss them when you've heard so much about how they get along. His comments about Sabean are nonsense too, because he's negotiated plenty of re-signings, so I doubt he treats the agent with disrespect. I heard Aubrey Huff talking the other day, and as a retired player he could speak while the present day players couldn't. Basically he said the other players looked at Pablo as someone who was taking food out of their mouths by repeatingly stuffing food in his. Pablo hurt the Giants in 2010 by being out of shape, and they felt they won in spite of him. They don't think he took his conditioning seriously, and it was costing them on the field. That's why he wasn't treated like the cute and cuddly Panda that all the fans loved, and it made sense. Panda showed a lack of class though, and should have let it go. If you're so happy in Boston, why so bitter? And why not prove the Giants wrong for obsessing about your weight by showing up in Boston obese and proving them right?

[Rog]

Boagie -- The comments he made don't even seem to remotely bother you. Why is that?

Rog -- Because I look at players as players. I love it when players show character, but it's as players that I evaluate them. Who cares what Pablo says? His comments reflect far more badly on him than they do on the Giants.

Boagie -- Have you ever been emotional during a game? I'm usually pretty reserved during games, but a few moments have brought me to the brink of tears. I'm thinking that's why Pablo's comments bother me.

Rog -- Believe it or not, I cry over a lot of things, most of them positive. I am probably more likely to cry during a movie than not to. I cry over Willie Mays. I cry over Roberto Clemente. I cry over Jackie Robinson. I cry over Juan Marichal. I cry when I see Joe Panik's double play.

You ask if I'm emotional during games. More than I show. I'm not Mordy crazy, but I care.

I love Stanley Cup Playoff overtime hockey, since emotions can soar to the heavens or descend to hell in an unexpected instant.

The most emotional I can ever remember being concerning a game just a couple of months ago. It's a game you no doubt watched and likely loved. When the Packers gave away the NFC championship game to the Seahawks, I was bummed out the rest of the day and struggled with it for at least two weeks. Probably more like a month.

As I told my fiance, it wasn't that they lost. The Seahawks are the better team, so I wasn't expecting a win. It was the WAY they lost.

I have often felt sorry for fans of other teams who were beaten in similar fashion by the team I rooted for. Now I can feel more empathy for them, not that I'm at all glad about the why.

If you are a Seahawks fan, you must have been ecstatic. What a mind-blowing win. But as happy as you were, the Packers' fans were likely even sadder. Gaining something can often be less emotional than losing it.

Coming back to Pablo, in the final analysis, who cares what he says? It doesn't change the facts. Sometimes people get carried away in their own emotion. So what?

I love Pablo because he's a free spirit who has helped the Giants. He's a fun guy to watch. I don't expect him to have a lot of understanding of what is going on around him. I just don't think that is who Pablo is. Pablo's an emotional guy (mostly positive), not an analytical one. He's great fun to watch, but I wouldn't expect him to have a deep understanding of the game.

He plays with emotion and a love for the game. As for why he is being so vengeful against the Giants, I don't know. The one thing that comes to mind is that he was hurt by the Giants' low offer to him a winter ago. His representation was probably a little naive. Had they been more on top of things and realized negotiation is a process, not a slap at a player, perhaps Pablo would have dealt with the situation more realistically.

Had the Giants simply left their offer at 3/$40, I could see Pablo's being upset about it. But apparently they improved the offer to about $80 million before the season started, so it's hard to say they disrespected him with their actions. Ultimately they were willing to go higher than he received from the Red Sox. In Pablo's own words, he left money on the table.

What likely escaped Pablo (and probably still does) is the risk he was prior to the 2014 season. He had missed a quarter of the previous three seasons. He has constantly fought weight issues, which might become a serious problem for him after age 30.

Pablo must have a very slow metabolism. I think he put in some serious work in the off-season. I do think he slacked off during the season and had poor eating habits. He eventually got his own chef though, and he still has weight problems.

I care a lot more about how Pablo is likely to perform than about what he says. If wanted a good player, I would go to him. If I wanted a guy who had a lot of fun around the game, I would go to him. If I wanted an expert on weight loss, I wouldn't. If I wanted a guy I felt was going to excel over the next five seasons, I wouldn't.

Back in 2009, Pablo looked like a Hall of Famer. Even after a very frustrating 2010 season, he bounced back in 2011 to look like a Hall of Fame player again. But even though he has done better (a relative term) with his weight and fielding, he has made a steady decline at the plate. About his only saving grace has been that he has been excellent in the postseason the past two postseasons, even though he was horrible in 2010.

If Pablo hit lefties as well as righties, I would love to have him. I would be very leery of his weight and health issues, but I would certainly take the gamble and pay him 5/$95. But just as he played only three-quarters of the Giants' games from 2011 through 2013 due to injury, he should be starting only three-quarters of the games because he can't hit southpaw pitching.

Pablo Sandoval has become basically a platoon player, and I just can't see paying him $19 million a year with five years of risk. Over the past five seasons, Pablo as a right-handed hitter has been like Tim Lincecum the past three.

Pablo's spectacular 1.028 OPS against southpaws in 2009 now appear to be a huge aberration. In his partial season of 2008, he hit .558 against them. The past five seasons his OPS has been .589, .723, .745, .686 and .563. Even with that spectacular 2009 season, his career OPS against southpaws is just .708 compared to .850 against righties.

In 70% of his at bats, Pablo is a near-superstar. In the other 30%, he's lucky to still be in the majors.

As a human being, I care about Pablo's comments but am smart enough to realize they don't mean much. As a fan, I care about what Pablo says only as it affects team chemistry, and now he's no longer a part of that team chemistry.

Pablo is foolish in a lot of his actions, but he was a good player for the Giants, and he appeared to be a positive in the clubhouse. That's the primary reason I don't really care much about what he says now. My only real concern is whether what he says might affect team chemistry even though he's gone.

Pablo was a good Giant. I expect him to be a good Red Sox for at least a year or two. I worry about him declining as his weight begins to take a heavier toll on his body.

Look at Ryan Howard. Look at Prince Fielder. In the other direction, look at Pablo's friend David Ortiz and his likely friend Bengie Molina. Even Bengie was done after age 34.

As an aside, I have to howl with laughter when Bengie is listed in Baseball-Reference as 5-foot-11, 190 pounds. No doubt Bengie was that weight at one time, but he quickly became a HUGE man. Pablo is LISTED at 5-foot-11, 245 pounds.

Whatever Pablo says now doesn't change the fact that he was a good Giant. It doesn't change the fact that he can't hit southpaws.

If I look at Pablo as a commodity, I see a declining one. If I look at him as a person, I am extremely disappointed, but still look at him as a guy I would love to play with every day.

Pablo made a foolish mistake when he spoke out against the Giants. It appears we here on the board aren't the only ones who are spoiled.


Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2752/pablo#ixzz3U5Ap77bW

[Islandboagie]

I can't get too emotional for other teams and sports. I'm not a football fan, and I'm certainly not a Seahawks fan. Infact I'm just the opposite when it comes to the Seahawks. I have to hear all my co-workers talk about how great they are, and trust me, it's obnoxious. No sports athlete here in Seattle has ever done wrong in the eyes of a local fan. They made excuses for Sherman when he went on his rant about Crabtree, saying he was just caught up in the moment. They make excuses for Marshawn Lynch when he refuses to be part of post game press conferences. "That's just not his thing. He's not good at speaking" Of course he's not good at speaking, he's a dumb athlete, almost all of them are bad at speaking but they still do it because that is what is expected of them. Just like Pablo is expected to be in good shape. These are just examples of spoiled athletes who behave badly and refuse to grow up.

As a fan, there's a fine line between supporting your team and ignoring stupid behavior.

Back to the Seahawks, I was glad they lost in the Superbowl, because I wanted the fans to shut up about the Seahawks. But the next day, of course, I had to hear all the Monday morning quarterbacking. I can appreciate the game itself, it was a very exciting game to watch. But the next day showed Seattle fans in their usual form. They refused to give the Patriots any credit, it was almost as if the Seahawks still won the game. A day or two later the city actually had the nerve to suggest a parade. The fans and media were 100% for it, but to his credit, Pete Carroll turned down the offer. That's probably the best example of Seattle fans not understanding the idea of tradition and what's right and wrong.

Anyways, enough about the Seattle fans, the topic irritates me too much.

I guess the point is, even though I wanted the Seahawks to lose pretty badly, no sport, no team has ever brought me to the same level of emotion the Giants have during the Bochy years. I say the Bochy years rather than the last 5 seasons because Lincecum's debut and Sanchez's no hitter are also games that were among my all-time favorites. But over the last 5 seasons there have been so many emotional games that its hard to keep count. Prior to the Bochy years I can only remember a few that really stick out to me. The Dravecky game, and the Brian Johnson game. Of course there are plenty of memorable moments, but nothing else that touched me in a different way.

[sfgdood]

I heard Aubrey Huff talking the other day, and as a retired player he could speak while the present day players couldn't. Basically he said the other players looked at Pablo as someone who was taking food out of their mouths by repeatingly stuffing food in his. Pablo hurt the Giants in 2010 by being out of shape, and they felt they won in spite of him. They don't think he took his conditioning seriously, and it was costing them on the field. That's why he wasn't treated like the cute and cuddly Panda that all the fans loved, and it made sense. Panda showed a lack of class though, and should have let it go. If you're so happy in Boston, why so bitter? And why not prove the Giants wrong for obsessing about your weight by showing up in Boston obese and proving them right?

Dood - I remember hearing some of the same stuff about Huff before he played for the Giants. He wasn't exactly a clubhouse favorite in Baltimore. It can certainly be said that in '11 and '12 Huff took money from the Giants and hurt the team by taking payroll money that could have been spent more wisely. I think sometimes older players are jealous and butt hurt by younger more talented guys. I respect that Aubrey said nothing until he left the team but I'm not sold that the majority of players felt the same way he did although right now I'm sure some of them feel hurt by Pablo's comments, especially guys like Angel and Gregor who were great friends of the Panda. Aubrey now is a radio personality and possibly just wanted to spur on his own ratings. If that's the case I feel sad for him.

[donk33]

Mar 11, 2015 7:12:58 GMT -5 rxmeister said:

All we've heard about the Giants these years is about their great chemistry, so it's shocking to hear Pablo's comments. It's also easy to dismiss them when you've heard so much about how they get along. His comments about Sabean are nonsense too, because he's negotiated plenty of re-signings, so I doubt he treats the agent with disrespect. I heard Aubrey Huff talking the other day, and as a retired player he could speak while the present day players couldn't. Basically he said the other players looked at Pablo as someone who was taking food out of their mouths by repeatingly stuffing food in his. Pablo hurt the Giants in 2010 by being out of shape, and they felt they won in spite of him. They don't think he took his conditioning seriously, and it was costing them on the field. That's why he wasn't treated like the cute and cuddly Panda that all the fans loved, and it made sense. Panda showed a lack of class though, and should have let it go. If you're so happy in Boston, why so bitter? And why not prove the Giants wrong for obsessing about your weight by showing up in Boston obese and proving them right?

dk...the other thing that puts a lie to the Giants' chemistry story is the "kidding" statement Affeldt made about Posey with Posey sitting next to him...basically it  was the lack of communications between Posey and the pitchers....as I  have mentioned previously as a problem....and Bochy hints  at when he keeps saying Posey has to get on the same page with the pitchers..I still see a problem  when pitchers continue to shake off Posey and I still see some negative body language from pitchers when it takes too long to get the sign they want..

[donk33]

Mar 11, 2015 12:42:52 GMT -5 sfgdood said:

I heard Aubrey Huff talking the other day, and as a retired player he could speak while the present day players couldn't. Basically he said the other players looked at Pablo as someone who was taking food out of their mouths by repeatingly stuffing food in his. Pablo hurt the Giants in 2010 by being out of shape, and they felt they won in spite of him. They don't think he took his conditioning seriously, and it was costing them on the field. That's why he wasn't treated like the cute and cuddly Panda that all the fans loved, and it made sense. Panda showed a lack of class though, and should have let it go. If you're so happy in Boston, why so bitter? And why not prove the Giants wrong for obsessing about your weight by showing up in Boston obese and proving them right?

Dood - I remember hearing some of the same stuff about Huff before he played for the Giants. He wasn't exactly a clubhouse favorite in Baltimore. It can certainly be said that in '11 and '12 Huff took money from the Giants and hurt the team by taking payroll money that could have been spent more wisely. I think sometimes older players are jealous and butt hurt by younger more talented guys. I respect that Aubrey said nothing until he left the team but I'm not sold that the majority of players felt the same way he did although right now I'm sure some of them feel hurt by Pablo's comments, especially guys like Angel and Gregor who were great friends of the Panda. Aubrey now is a radio personality and possibly just wanted to spur on his own ratings. If that's the case I feel sad for him.dk.."they" were such great friends...but  Pablo doesn't miss them??

[Rog]

Pablo is gone. We're crying over spilled milk. Let's hope that instead, the Giants can overcome the odds and drink some more.

[rxmeister]

The Giants have more Venezuelan players than most teams, and Pablo was the leader of that group, so I agree I was very surprised by Pablo's comments that he only missed Bochy and Pence. I do agree that it's time to move on.

[klaiggeb]

Roger-Pablo is gone. We're crying over spilled milk. Let's hope that instead, the Giants can overcome the odds and drink some more.

***boly says****

Rog, that wasn't the point of my starting this thread.

Mostly, it was informational.

On another level it had to do with an adult being less than honorable.

As you may have gleaned from my statements, I expect... no, make that DEMAND adults, especially adults in the public eye, to conduct themselves in an honorable manner.

I EXPECT them to understand that integrity is NOT something one gets from a dirty toilet seat.


When Pablo said what he said, he didn't just fall in esteem in my eyes, he plummeted off of a cliff.

All that he did for us, will be, in my eyes, forever tainted, and each time I think back about our 3 World Championships, for at least the briefest of moments, I will remember how he spit in the faces of all of his fans.


I have zero respect for adults, to whom children look up and admire, who conduct themselves in that manner.


THAT was the point of my post.

To others, this may seem trivial, but to me, it is not.


Without honor, without integrity, we are nothing but racks of flesh hung upon bones.

boly

[Islandboagie]

I agree, Boly. I think the most glaring point about integrity in this whole situation is the fact that NONE of the Giants players fired back at Pablo's comments.

I still appreciate what Pablo did on the field for the Giants, but it's clear now that the loss of Pablo didn't effect the nucleus of their chemistry. In fact, with his comments, I believe it shows the team and the fans that they're better off without him.

But, alas, there's still a growing problem in this country that's fueled by the President himself. Immigrants to this country, and minorities that were even born here believe they are above common decency and respect for their fellow human beings. They believe they are above the laws and believe integrity is not a character trait, but how much money you have and how much "bling" you wear. How do we change this trend?

[Rog]

Boly -- Without honor, without integrity, we are nothing but racks of flesh hung upon bones.

Rog -- You're right on the money here, and I love a guy like Hunter Pence, but when I judge a baseball player, I use far different standards than I use in the "real" world.

I would prefer to have all choir boys, but I'm mostly interested in whether a guy can hit, pitch, run and play defense.

In the "real" world I'm with you all the way. I'd prefer my players to be that way too -- but most of all, I like to see "my" team win games. If a player's actions affect chemistry in a very negative manner, then I care a lot more. I think Pablo was a positive for chemistry, and I don't know why he's so bitter.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2752/pablo#ixzz3UIH7rmtZ

[sfgdood]

Here's the deal, and I'm in no way defending what Pablo said or his dismissive attitude towards most of his former Giants teammates. It was bad and there's no getting around it. But here's my point and one I've long held. We do not KNOW what anybody is like when he's away from the cameras. Just because somebody is comfortable speaking to reporters and is good at saying all the right things, that doesn't make him a great guy automatically. I don't care too much the way a player is portrayed in the media. If he can play, that's 99.9% what I care about. As long as he doesn't OPENLY throw a teammate under the bus. Say what you will about Pablo, he never once left a teammate's cheese out to the wind...and so far he seems to be fully supportive of his new teammates in Boston.

You can believe there is no loss in chemistry with Pablo's departure...maybe there's a point to be made there but it certainly cannot be quantified. But anyone who watched the postseason knows in his heart that there is a huge loss to the lineup, whether you want to admit it or not.

[Rog]

Randy -- there is a huge loss to the lineup, whether you want to admit it or not.

Rog -- Of course there is a loss in the lineup with Pablo gone. A player doesn't have multiple teams bidding $95 million for him unless he's pretty good.

That said, I have a feeling Brandon Belt's OPS+ will be higher this year's than Pablo's -- and particularly higher over the next five years. Not that it wouldn't be good to have Pablo.

Let me ask you this: In terms of expected performance and risk, which player would you equate Pablo with? In other words, which player would you be willing to pay about the same amount over the next five seasons as Pablo will be making?

A Giants player would be good for comparison, but the comp could be from any team. I'm just curious if we view him similarly. I don't dislike him as a player, by the way. I think he's pretty good.

But IMO he carries a high risk and is a declining player. Not sure which player I would compare him to, but I'll think about it. You may come up with a better comparison than I.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2752/pablo#ixzz3UJKDxXsJ

[sfgdood]

I don't like making comparisons with salaries because the market changes every offseason. Pablo benefitted by being the top hitting FA in a fairly weak offseason FA market. You can't compare him to someone who may have gotten short shrift in a booming offseason market. I'll say this...until Belt finally lives up to his potential I wouldn't bet on him outhitting the Panda who will play his home games at the Fens.

[Islandboagie]

I wouldn't call Pablo a declining player, he's basically been the same type of player since 2011. 2009 was his best, then 2010 was bad. Since then he's basically been a 15-20 hr 70-90 RBI guy. Minor fluctuations here and there but nothing drastic, and no growing trends that I can see.

[sfgdood]

and still just 28

[Rog]

Randy -- I don't like making comparisons with salaries because the market changes every offseason. Pablo benefitted by being the top hitting FA in a fairly weak offseason FA market.

Rog -- I wasn't asking for a salary comparison with Pablo. I was asking for a player comparison. I agree with you, by the way, that free agent salaries keep rising. You mentioned a fairly weak free agent market this past winter. Which begs the question as to whether that is the time to spend one's money. The other side, of course, is that teams have holes to fill.

But getting back to the question: To which player would you compare Pablo for value? I did come up with a player, whom I'll share with you after you also share.




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[Rog]

Pablo is only 28, which is very young for a free agent. But I think most agree he's an old 28.

One player who was available at a younger age was Prince fielder three winters ago. Prince had a similar build, a better health history, and less of a declining past. He was coming off a season in which he led the AL intentional walks and posted an OPS above his career average.

Incidentally, this isn't the player I am comparing Pablo too. I was responding to the comment that he was a free agent at the young age of 28.

[Rog]

Randy -- I wouldn't call Pablo a declining player, he's basically been the same type of player since 2011.

Rog -- I think you mean since 2012. He experienced a very large decline from his 2011 season (.909 OPS) to 2012 (.789 OPS). His drop since then has been less but has been consistent (.789 to .758 to .739).

Since his first full season, Pablo's bat has actually declined in four of the next five. I believe you mentioned a while back that Pablo's 2010 season wasn't horrible. You're right about that.

But his .732 OPS in 2010 was very close to his .739 OPS last season. In 2010, Pablo wasn't deemed good enough to be a starter in the World Series, batting just 19 times in the three series. He had a wonderful 2011, but since has declined almost to his 2010 level.

By the way, Pablo was a better hitter last season than in 2010 when his numbers are compared to the league average. Pablo is probably a more streaky hitter than most, and I believe he does swing at more pitches outside the strike zone than any other major leaguer. He does make amazing contact on bad pitches, particularly on low offerings.

A scouting report I read today on Pablo said to throw him high heat early in the count and then low secondary pitchers later.

What do the scouting reports you've read on Pablo say -- or are you strictly a numbers guy!

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