Alex Gordon is the new Matty Alou

[Rog]

Matty Alou was held at third base, and in arguably the most frustrating play in Giants history, Willie McCovey lined to Bobby Richardson, and the 1962 World Series belonged to the Yankees.

52 years later Alex Gordon was held at third base, and the Giants won their third World Series in five seasons.

With normal throws, both runners would have ended the World Series at the plate trying futily trying to score the tying run, even though Alou was extremely fleet, and Gordon is a fast runner.  But there was a difference in the two plays.

With two outs, Alou immediately raced from first base in his attempt to score.  If not for the wet conditions after games 6 and 7 of the Series had been delayed by drenching rain, Willie Mays' double down the right field line would likely have gotten past Roger Maris, tying the game for the Giants.  Instead, Maris made a dashing play to reach the ball, and threw a solid strike to the relay man (Bobby Richardson, who would figure so prominently in the next, and final, play of the game.

As fast as Alou was -- and he might have been the fastest Giant at that time -- he would have easily been out at the plate on the accurate relay throw executed by Richardson.  Gordon too almost certainly would have been out, but there was a critical difference between the two plays.

With two outs on Mays' hit, Alou was off with the crack of the bat.  In contrast, Gordon glided out of the box as is normally the case with major league players not named Pence.  When Gordon's ball got beyond the diving Gregor Blanco, Gordon had a clear shot at making it all the way to third, which he did easily.  The question is, could he have scored on the play with an inside-the park home run had he been hustling out of the box.

The answer is likely yes.  Even with his slow start, Gordon might have beaten the average inside-the-park time of 15.2 seconds by a tick.  Juan Perez's quick reaction to the ball once it got by Blanco put Brandon Crawford in position to make the relay throw so that an accurate throw would have beaten Gordon by about 8 feet.

Let's suppose though that Gordon had been busting out of the box.  Chances are he could have arrived at home plate in 14.7 or 14.8 seconds instead of his projected 15.1 seconds as would have been likely as the play unfolded with his slow start out of the box.  At 14.7 seconds, he likely would have scored no matter how accurate Crawford's throw.  At 14.8 seconds, an accurate throw would have made the play bang-bang.

All season long we talked about how batters just don't bust it out of the box.  The last time of the post season that a batter didn't bust it out of the box, he likely cost his team at tie in game 7 of the World Series.  Perez hustled after the ball when it got beyond Blanco.   By then, Gordon had FAILED to hustle out of the box.

The difference between a Giants win and a tie game was likely Perez's winning the hustle battle.

Had the Royals tied the game, would the Giants have won it?  Probably.  The Royals had already used Kelvin Herrara (1.80 post season ERA) and Wade Davis (0.63), and had pitched Greg Holland (0.82) for an inning.  The Giants had Sergio Romo (1.29) and Santiago Casilla (0.00) at the ready.  Then again, the Royals were the home team, and the home team wins extra inning battles more often than not.

Aren't we glad that Gordon kept us from having to find out?

[klaiggeb]

One word, Rog. YEAH! We ARE glad!

boly

[Rog]

I just don't understand why ballplayers don't hustle. In Gordon's case, a failure to do so may have cost his team a shot at a World Series.

[klaiggeb]

Rog-I just don't understand why ballplayers don't hustle. In Gordon's case, a failure to do so may have cost his team a shot at a World Series.

***boly says***

Well holy crap in a handbasket! We agree! Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

Seriously, Rog, I don't get it either. Players dog it all the time, especially in the NFL.

I guess when you've always been a super star, from age 8 on, and EVERYONE has continually told you how good you are; how great you are, it goes to your head.

That's my guess.

Me? I never, ever phoned in a performance in my life. Not once.

Then again, I was good, very, very good... but there was always someone better. And I had my father and Step Father around to keep me humble.

boly

[rxmeister]

I don't call it a lack of hustle, I think it was more just a failure to anticipate. He hit a bloop and assumed it was either a single or an out. He didn't anticipate an error and a kicked ball and that's why he didn't go full speed out of the box. Let's face it, how many times has a hitter blooped one to CF and gotten four bases out of it? I'm not saying he's not at fault, but I don't think his problem there was hustle.

[klaiggeb]

I agree, Mark, I don't think it was a lack of hustle, either. The way I saw it the 3B coach was in a tough spot; send the runner and risk what was likely going to be a close play called out, or play it safe and not take the chance.

Gordon could NOT have known that Perez bobbled/bungled the ball in the OF, and IF the 3B coach took a glance at the runner at THAT EXACT MOMENT, he might not have realized until it was too late that his odds of scoring had improved.

And let's all remember, the coach had a split second to make that decision. To me, if I'm him, it's classic case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't."


I think Roger's comment was on players in general. We've all seen tooooooo many cases of runners not hustling. That's what I agreed with in his post.

boly

[Rog]

Guys, a failure to hustle IS a lack of anticipation. Hustle only matters if there is something to anticipate. Hustle is the anticipation that there might be something to anticipate.

Lack of hustle is, well, wrong.

[Rog]

Boly -- Gordon could NOT have known that Perez bobbled/bungled the ball in the OF

Rog -- Of course he couldn't. His not running hard in that situation was a lack of hustle. His not running hard had he known that would happen would have been stupidity.

Mark said that it is rare that a ball such as Gordon hit would turn into four bases. But the batter must be ready for the opportunity in the rare times it occurs -- especially with the World Series on the line.

There wasn't much chance that the ball would facilitate four bases, but there was a clearly higher chance it might offer the chance to be in scoring position.

Gordon didn't hustle, which in that situation was flat-our stupid.

Call it a lack of hustle or a failure to anticipate, but it was both -- and it was stupid. If I were a teammate of Gordon's, I would be really put out with him. Except, of course, that I likely would realize I would have done the same thing he did -- jaked it.

Gordon had a chance to give the Royals a second chance to win the World Series. He blew it. He was stupid. He was intentionally playing the game incorrectly, which is stupid.

Thank goodness it wasn't a Giant who did that. We fans would have every right to be put out.

Blanco shouldn't have dived for the ball either, but he thought he could end the World Series, and once you commit, it's tough to back off. Blanco made an error of commission, a mistake in judgment. Gordon made a totally inexcusable error of ommission.

I was with Barry Bonds when he didn't hustle. Rarely did he fail to do so when it mattered, and he felt it could keep him healthy longer. It seemed to work in that regard.

But when you're in the prime of your career and the World Series is on the line, why in the world not hustle all out. Hunter Pence would have scored standing up on that play, and it wouldn't even have been close. Although to be honest, even Hunter usually doesn't hustle ALL OUT on such a play.

What do you bet Pete Rose would have?

Gordon played it like just about every other major league player would have played it. And every one of those player would have been wrong, wrong, wrong.

We actually discussed this on the board multiple times during the season. All I can say is that apparently our anticipation was a lot better than Gordon's. I hope we all would have run full out. I know I would have. Especially in that situation.

I didn't have anywhere near the ability of even Pete Rose. But that didn't mean I couldn't hustle as hard as he did.

You guys don't seem to think I know anything about the game beyond stats. Well, I know that a player should hustle. When you hit a ball, you should think first base until the defense forces you into an out. You should think second base until the defense forces you not to. Same with third base and home.

A player can't control what the defense does. But he can control what he does, at least when it comes to hustle. If I were a Royals fan, I would be livid. Not with the third base coach. He likely made the right decision. But Gordon had the power to make the decision to send him home the right one instead of the wrong one.

He blew it because he isn't an all-out player.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2647/alex-gordon-new-matty-alou?page=1#ixzz3OS9Uhnfv

[rxmeister]

Isn't that why you remember Pete Rose though? The fact that he went full speed on every ball he hit and even on walks? Pete Rose was the only player in the history of baseball that did those things. So you're knocking Alex Gordon for doing something that every other player in history except for one does? Not really fair. And if he gets thrown out, he's knocked by even more people who would say he gambled unnecessarily with the one guy who has had success against Bumgarner on deck.

[klaiggeb]

Also, Rog, remember, it was really not that difficult a play of a LF with a good arm to make.

Gordon assumed, in retrospect, foolishly, that the play was going to be routine, and that he was only logically, going to get to third.

He didn't know Perez was going to bungle it.

Now I don't agree with what Gordon did, but I would not call it a lack of hustle.

I call it making the same assumption that every player makes NOT named Pete Rose, and perhaps, Willie Mays

boly

[Rog]

Yes, I am criticizing Gordon for not making the right play even though perhaps only one other player would have made that play. I would criticize if NO other player would have made that play.

Once a player hits a ball, he has no control over where that ball goes and only a little control over how it is played. What he does have control over though is how he runs after he HITS the ball.

When a player hits a ground ball or a line drive or pop up on which there could possibly be a play at first base, he should run as hard as he can to first base until he sees he will be safe at first and have time to safely make a turn. Once he sees that, he should make as quick a turn as possible and run as fast toward second base as he can until the defense forces him to make a safe stop. Etc., etc. until home plate is either reached or the batter/runner is forced to safely stop.

Now, this strategy can be overused. I just read that the aggressive Whitey Herzog had one player thrown out at least 25 times in a single season trying to advance. Judgment must enter the equation.

But one should run as hard as he can until the defense forces him to stop SAFELY. He shouldn't go hog wild as the unidentified Cardinal or Royal, or as crazy as Puig.

But Boly says to put pressure on the defense. He's right on the money. And a player who runs as hard as he can in an effort to put that pressure on the defense and/or to take advantage of any bobble, is simply doing his job.

I don't care if no one HAS done the job or ever will. It still should be done right.

As a Giants fan, I'm delighted Gordon followed convention and wasn't in position to score the tying run with two outs in the bottom of the 9th inning. If he had defied convention and done what was right, it is possible we wouldn't be basking in the glow of a third World Championship in five seasons.

Now, if a player is nursing an injury or as in the case of Barry Bonds makes a conscious decision not to run the bases all-out in order to avoid injury, I'm all for doing the prudent thing.

But Alex Gordon was in a position where if he were ever in his life to hustle, that would have been the time to do so.

I don't know if Gordon would have been safe at the plate had he hustled full-out, but with two outs I'm pretty sure he would have been sent. And that it would have taken a very good throw to get him.

Gordon isn't slow. But he didn't maximize his speed, and that was a mistake.

Boly correctly mentions that Gordon didn't know that Perez would bobble the ball when he picked it up off the fence. He also had no way to know that Blanco would attempt to make a diving chance, allowing the ball to go to the wall.

But a batter/runner shouldn't worry about that. He should run all-out as if the defense WILL make a mistake. Not only will he force a few more than he otherwise would, he'll be in better position to take advantage of them when those bobbles or other mistakes do happen.

I agree that a team can benefit from putting pressure on the defense. And the best way to do that is to run as hard as one can until the defense forces one to stop safely.

Perhaps we should ask Alex Gordon. If he is bright enough to understand and is being completely honest, he'll agree he should have run all-out on that play. What was the risk, particularly given the circumstance?

Boly and I differ in that I try to be perhaps a bit more prudent in pressuring the defense. But I believe in running all-out until the defense forces you to safely stop.

Gordon has almost nothing to risk, and a World Championship to lose. He wound up doing one of the two.

[Rog]

As for Gordon (or the third base coach) being knocked for being thrown out at the plate, if both the player and the coach gave their very best on the play, who cares if they criticize? The player's job and the coach's job is to give his best.

If that doesn't work out, the player can hold his head high. If he's honest, Alex Gordon can't.

Hey, perhaps Gordon's best effort would still have resulted in the coach's holding him at third. But Gordon didn't put the coach in the position of doing anything but taking a wild gamble. Because Gordon didn't do his job.

Thousands before him may not have done it either. But that doesn't make it right.

Gordon was wrong when the stakes were as high as they get.