An enema instead of a Merry Christmas or a happy Hanuka

[klaiggeb]

This morning around 1000 am, my wife and I returned from a Christmas cruise to Mexico.

I purposly spent the last 8 days NOT watching sports, or even sporting events on TV because I wanted to get as far away from the games as I could. I'd had enough of the conjucture and the speculation, and I was borderline ticked.

I left with no hopes for a brighter Giant future, and returned to find the enema I expected from the Giants waiting for me, all set to rammed in place.

So I bent over, and took it up the shorts just like the rest of the Giant fans did.



8 days and they did diddly squat.


8 days of nothing but noise, which, frankly, I'm thankful I didn't have to listen to.


Mark, and with all DUE RESPECT, I do not, repeat do NOT see any reason for:

1-Your not understanding our frustration

or

2-Your sense of optimism that we WILL do something. I honestly, and sincerly don't understand it.




I've beaten this to death but I'll do it one more time.


1-You win with pitching; in particular good STARTING pitching.

2-We don't have it

3-We didn't acquire ANYONE to even remotely make it seem like the front office even cares.

4-I'm with Randy; paying that money to Romo was borderline nuts. Hey! I love what the guy's done for us. But am I the ONLY one who sees the handwriting on the table?

(a) tons of pitches on that arm.
(b) tons of pitches that MOSTLY have been THE HARDEST PITCH on the arm!
(c) declining velocity
(d) declining command.

When 2+2 is added up, it always equals 4.



I agree with what Branch Rickey said; trade(move) a guy a year before he's done, rather than be stuck with him when his skills are gone.



And I saw all of what I wrote in # 4 above in both Lopez and Romo.

5-Signing McGehee was nice... but it's really just a yawn of a move; a "so whater?" if you'd prefer.

He's just a guy, and for THAT money, we could have done better with Duffy.

6-The Giant front office has said all of the right things, went through what "seemed to be" all of the right motions.
But at the end of the day, you're all bent over right next to me, having them ram that enema up our backsides because for all of their rhetoric, they've done nothing.



Welcome home, boly.

Yeah. Thanks, Giants.

boly

[Islandboagie]

The skies are always gray in Bolyville and Randyland.

Even last year we heard unrelenting complaints about the managing of Bochy and the lack of international players landed by Sabean. Yet, teams with international players were left scratching their heads while the Giants were celebrating. I'm convinced 5 out of 5 still wouldn't have satisfied you two.

[sfgdood]

yeah you're right Boagie...Abreu sucks and the Giants are much better off without him. The loss of both Morse and Sandoval are better filled by the aging McGehee (4 HR) and Zobrist (10 HR 52 RBI)...not to mention the GREAT Brandon Belt makes Abreu look like worm food. We should all be cheering every move and non-move by Sabean this offseason, yumpin yiminy!

The team did great in the postseason, obviously...but they also came VERY close to not making the playoffs...and then lost two key cogs from the lineup...and then both the Dodgers and Padres are getting better. Tell me what part of that sounds good to you because I'm not seeing it...

[klaiggeb]

Boagie--The skies are always gray in Bolyville and Randyland.

Even last year we heard unrelenting complaints about the managing of Bochy and the lack of international players landed by Sabean. Yet, teams with international players were left scratching their heads while the Giants were celebrating. I'm convinced 5 out of 5 still wouldn't have satisfied you two.

---boly says---

Not true, Boagie, and certainly not fair.

Let's hop into Mr. Peabody's "Wayback" machine.

1-The acquisition of MOrse I was excited about and said so.
2-I was excited about the signing of Hudson because his role was to breach the time between then, and when some of the kids were ready.
3-I really liked the pick up of Peavy during the season

Thus, I don't understand your comment. "bolyville" is often negative and critical of managment, but each time I have been I've given specific reasons why, and what I would have done differently.


Even if one disagrees with points 5 and 6 of my original post, points 1,2,3,4 are solid and are hard to dispute.

Thus I put the same question to you as I did Mark; "boagie with all DUE RESPECT, I do not, repeat do NOT see any reason for:

1-Your not understanding our frustration

or

2-Your sense of optimism that we WILL do something. I honestly, and sincerly don't understand it."



Please, 'splain yourself,' as Ricky Ricardo used to say.

boly

[rxmeister]

Boly, I can't get over your comment that the Giants rotation isn't good. Bumgarner, Cain, Peavy, Hudson and Lincecum? How many teams have a better or deeper rotation than that? The bullpen is intact and assuming the Giants find the left fielder, it's one of the deepest lineups in the league. Randy and Boly sound like two spoiled children on Christmas Day who complain that the 60 inch hi def TV their parents brought them wasn't a 70 inch! Three championships in five years. When are we finally going to concede they know what they're doing?

[sfgdood]

If you're talking about Bochy, he certainly knows how to win the big one and not with the greatest players...Sabean knows what he's doing, I just don't agree with his methods because they have shown to be equally likely to miss the playoffs than not.

[Rog]

Boly -- 1-You win with pitching; in particular good STARTING pitching.

Rog -- I think a team wins with a combination of pitching, hitting, defense, base running and chemistry.

Boly -- 2-We don't have it

Rog -- I think the Giants may or may not have it.

I think we all agree that Bumgarner is an excellent pitcher, and about the only thing we have to worry about is how his arm reacts to throwing more innings than in any season of his career. In fact, his 280 innings is 55 more innings than he has ever thrown in a season before.

With Matt Cain it depends almost entirely on how well he can bounce back from surgery. His surgery was to remove bone chips from his elbow, not Tommy John surgery. In other words, he will be coming back from a far lesser surgery than the one pitchers typically bounce back strongly from. Matt should return to being a very good #2.

I would call Jake Peavy the #3, although one could also argue it would be Tim Hudson. Peavy has been a pretty good pitcher over the past three seasons, and he was very good with the Giants. Hudson started out as the best pitcher on the team but faltered late when his hip became injured. I see Hudson as more of an unknown, since he will be turning 40. Still, if he can be anywhere nearly as good as last season, he will make a very nice #4.

Tim Lincecum is a wild card. My expectations are higher than yours, but I haven't expected him to turn back into a #1 since 2012. If he is the Giants' #5 starter though, he certainly has the potential to be a very good one.

If Tim isn't solid, I would go with Yusmeiro Petit. How can one argue strongly against a control pitcher who had the best average against right-handed hitters of any pitcher in the league? If Tim is a wild card who might turn into a joker, Petit is a wild card who might show his face.

Boly -- 3-We didn't acquire ANYONE to even remotely make it seem like the front office even cares.

Rog -- That's very strong and very subjective opinion. Romo is considered to be one of the game's top relievers over the past six seasons, and his WHIP last season was better than Bumgarner's. Peavy is considered to be a solid starter. Re-signing that pair makes it seem like the front office doesn't care? Filling the team's biggest void with a player who had more RBI's last season than the player he replaced shows a front office that doesn't care? Working hard to acquire three of the top free agents doesn't show a front office that cares? Being rumored to be trading for one of the most highly-sought-after players at last year's trade deadline is showing a front office that doesn't care?

Boly -- 4-I'm with Randy; paying that money to Romo was borderline nuts. Hey! I love what the guy's done for us. But am I the ONLY one who sees the handwriting on the table?

(a) tons of pitches on that arm.
(b) tons of pitches that MOSTLY have been THE HARDEST PITCH on the arm!
(c) declining velocity
(d) declining command.

When 2+2 is added up, it always equals 4.

Rog -- I was neutral on the re-signing of Sergio. I agree with Randy that the Giants already have potential better replacements in house than for third base, left field or starting pitcher.

But in Romo, we're talking about a pitcher who had a WHIP that was clearly lower than Madison Bumgarner's. We're talking about the guy who over the past seven seasons has been one of the very best relievers in the game. We're talking about a guy who struck out more than a batter per inning while walking less than two per nine.

We're talking about a guy who threw 69% first-pitch strikes, better than his career average. We're talking about a guy who threw 14% of his pitches for swinging strikes, better than his career average and easily the best on the team.



Boly -- I agree with what Branch Rickey said; trade(move) a guy a year before he's done, rather than be stuck with him when his skills are gone.

Rog -- I do too. Clearly Romo's skill's aren't gone, and he is the type of pitcher who if he isn't having a good season at the trade deadline likely could be traded.

What we saw last season from Sergio was back-to-back horrible blown-save losses on June 13th and 14th, and otherwise a very solid season. Take out those two days of the season, and Sergio went 6-2 with 23 saves and 11 holds in 37 attempts. That save/hold rate is well ahead of what Robb Nen did as a Giant. Better than Brian Wilson. Better than Rod Beck.

Oh, and his ERA was 2.70. If you're looking for his WHIP with those two straight days out of his season, don't look too high. It was 0.76. If not for those two back-to-back games, Sergio's WHIP would be the 2nd-lowest in Giants history, behind only his 0.71 of 2011.

In other words, you're judging Sergio's entire season and post season based on two consecutive days of the season. Is that at all fair or productive?



Boly -- And I saw all of what I wrote in # 4 above in both Lopez and Romo.

Rog -- I believe Lopez is more of a valid concern, although in many ways his 2014 season compared with his 2011 campaign.

Boly -- 5-Signing McGehee was nice... but it's really just a yawn of a move; a "so whater?" if you'd prefer.

Rog -- I agree this is the least impressive of the Giants' three moves or proposed move for Zobrist. Still, Casey had three more RBI's last season than Pablo.

Boly -- He's just a guy, and for THAT money, we could have done better with Duffy.

Rog -- Probably not. Duffy has three games of experience at third base and is unproven as a major league hitter. I personally think that unless Duffy has a great spring, he would be better off playing three infield positions for Sacramento than playing them off the bench in San Francisco.

If we don't like Duffy all that much, let's make him into a utility man at Fresno. If we think he's got a chance to be a good starting player, let's let him play three positions (maybe even outfield) at Fresno and develop him for later in the season.

At his very highest ceiling -- and I mean one three or four stories high -- Duffy might someday become Ben Zobrist.


Boly -- 6-The Giant front office has said all of the right things, went through what "seemed to be" all of the right motions.
But at the end of the day, you're all bent over right next to me, having them ram that enema up our backsides because for all of their rhetoric, they've done nothing.

Rog -- I would hate the enema. But an objective look at what they have accomplished and what more they would add with Zobrist would give me a nice feeling looking ahead -- both short-term and long-term.

The more objectively we look, the better the direction the Giants may be going appears to be. No splashy move, but perhaps as many as four solid ones -- two of them (Romo and Zobrist) pretty darn good ones.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2641/enema-merry-christmas-happy-hanuka#ixzz3NDmeEFk0

[Rog]

Boly -- 1-The acquisition of MOrse I was excited about and said so.

Rog -- They haven't acquired him yet, but Ben Zobrist is clearly better than Morse.

Boly -- 2-I was excited about the signing of Hudson because his role was to breach the time between then, and when some of the kids were ready.

Rog -- Romo is better than Hudson was then -- and not coming off a serious injury.

Boly -- 3-I really liked the pick up of Peavy during the season

Rog -- But yet you seem to discount his signing this winter. Yes, he's half a year older, but why excited while giving up players in July and disappointed when giving up no one in December?

Zobrist, Romo and Peavy would likely be BETTER than Morse, Hudson and Peavy.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2641/enema-merry-christmas-happy-hanuka?page=1#ixzz3NDya8Kp0

[Rog]

Mark -- Randy and Boly sound like two spoiled children on Christmas Day who complain that the 60 inch hi def TV their parents brought them wasn't a 70 inch!

Rog -- These are two sharp guys, but I like your analogy. I might downsize both TV's a little, but I think the comparison and the term "spoiled" make sense.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2641/enema-merry-christmas-happy-hanuka?page=1#ixzz3NDzjsYF0

[klaiggeb]

Mark--Boly, I can't get over your comment that the Giants rotation isn't good. Bumgarner, Cain, Peavy, Hudson and Lincecum? How many teams have a better or deeper rotation than that? The bullpen is intact and assuming the Giants find the left fielder, it's one of the deepest lineups in the league. Randy and Boly sound like two spoiled children on Christmas Day who complain that the 60 inch hi def TV their parents brought them wasn't a 70 inch! Three championships in five years. When are we finally going to concede they know what they're doing?

---boly says---

Mark; I'll address each point, one at a time.

First, our rotation. Calling it average, for me, is a stretch.

After Bumgarner EVERYONE is a question mark of sorts.

1-Cain. Ya'll may be convinced he'll revert to form, but until I see him pitch, I can't and won't. And if he does, I raise my ranking to "above average," nothing more.

2-Peavy-He's on the down side of his career, and OTHER than his 12 or so games with us, he was, well, below average. So let's estimate on the high side next year for Jake; He'll be average. But in the 3 spot in the rotation? Sorry, but that dog won't hunt. At this stage in his career, he's a bottom of the rotation guy. I see both him and Hudson as 4 to 5 inning pitchers most of the time out, and that over the long haul of the year, with Peavy, Hudson and Lincecum back-to-back-to-back, it's a bullpen killer

3-Hudson-See Peavy above.

4-Lincecum-I've talke about him, explained my rationale and reasons adnaseum. No need to do it again.

Thus, for point number one, we DON'T match up with LA 1-5. The Padres, too, have a better, and younger rotation with less questions.



Point 2: The deep line up. I don't see it.

Is it a bad line up? Heck no! In fact, I like our line up better than our starters, but UNTIL we find a guy to play LF NOT named Blanco, our line up is neither deep, nor overly strong.

I do think we have reason to believe McGehee will do well, or at least better than last year.

So, 1-6 looks... okay... IF,,,,,IF Pagan stays healthy.

Pagan
Panik
Pence
Posey
Belt
McGehee

I've said this before, and I'll say it again; hitting Posey 3 hole is, IMHO, gallactically stupid. He drives in runs, but he's a base clogger.



Point 3; spoiled children. Mark, you still don't understand what I'm saying. I'm OVER FRICKIN' JOYED at 3 in 5! Over frickin' joyed!

But 2015 is almost here and here we are at the end of December, and we're a third place team.

No Shields, No bats, just McGehee and Romo.


I conceed that management HAS known what they were doing.

They have proven that conclusively.

But I contend, adamently, that what they've fed the public and the Giant fans has been a systematically, well organized, carefully packaged glob of horse-poopy rhetoric, nothing more.

They've made noises, but I STILL CONTEND, they never, EVER had any intentions of landing Lester, Shields, or Scherzer, nor did they intend on filling that gapping LF hole with a run producer.

I will go to my grave believing what Randy said; they made up their minds to pocket the cash, and the fans will just have to suck it up and be content with our 3 in 5 run.


Spoiled child? I obviously disagree.

You and Boagie and Rog, on the other hand, are wearing what you used to say I ALWAYS wore; Rose colored glasses.


Until I see some solid moves, I'm holding managment accountable for outright lying to their fans.

boly

[klaiggeb]

Rog-oly -- I agree with what Branch Rickey said; trade(move) a guy a year before he's done, rather than be stuck with him when his skills are gone.

Rog -- I do too. Clearly Romo's skill's aren't gone, and he is the type of pitcher who if he isn't having a good season at the trade deadline likely could be traded.

What we saw last season from Sergio was back-to-back horrible blown-save losses on June 13th and 14th, and otherwise a very solid season. Take out those two days of the season, and Sergio went 6-2 with 23 saves and 11 holds in 37 attempts. That save/hold rate is well ahead of what Robb Nen did as a Giant. Better than Brian Wilson. Better than Rod Beck.

Oh, and his ERA was 2.70. If you're looking for his WHIP with those two straight days out of his season, don't look too high. It was 0.76. If not for those two back-to-back games, Sergio's WHIP would be the 2nd-lowest in Giants history, behind only his 0.71 of 2011.

In other words, you're judging Sergio's entire season and post season based on two consecutive days of the season. Is that at all fair or productive?

---boly says---

No. Not true, Rog. I'm judging Sergio on what I outlined earlier, but I'll do it again.

1-Decreased velocity

2-Humongous wear and tear on his elbow and arm BECAUSE of the pitch he wins with; the slider. If you haven't thrown a lot of them, you couldn't possible understand, but even Krukow has beaten this point to death; it's tough on the arm

3-Declining command

None of those reasons are disputable because the numbers back them up.

I'm a student of pitching. I've done it, I've been through it, so when I see it, I understand it.

Sergio will likely be above average to at times, good.

But mostly he'll be average because his arm is old.

boly

[Rog]

Boly -- No. Not true, Rog. I'm judging Sergio on what I outlined earlier, but I'll do it again.

1-Decreased velocity

2-Humongous wear and tear on his elbow and arm BECAUSE of the pitch he wins with; the slider. If you haven't thrown a lot of them, you couldn't possible understand, but even Krukow has beaten this point to death; it's tough on the arm

3-Declining command

None of those reasons are disputable because the numbers back them up.

I'm a student of pitching. I've done it, I've been through it, so when I see it, I understand it.

Sergio will likely be above average to at times, good.

But mostly he'll be average because his arm is old.

Rog -- You make good points here, Boly. And I know you're a very good observer of pitching. And you are certainly right that the slider takes a big toll on the arm.

But a point or two:

. Sergio's fastball hasn't been declining in velocity. It was 87.7 in both 2012 and 2013 and up to 88.0 this past season. According to Fan Graphs, his fastball was more effective than in 2012 or 2013.

. The declining command certainly makes sense. He yielded nine home runs last season compared to a previous high of six. He is yielding more fly balls, with fewer ground balls and line drives. That should equate to a lower average but higher home runs. His hit rate did fall to 6.7 to 7.9.

His walk rate didn't change much, from 1.8/9 to 1.9/9.

I have been predicting a decline for a couple of years now. Perhaps his elbow will blow out and cause a much quicker rate of decline. But for now I see him as an above-average reliever moving forward. And he has the value of being able to either close or set up. He has said he doesn't care which.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2641/enema-merry-christmas-happy-hanuka#ixzz3NJM3LoNa

[Rog]

One more thing about Sergio is that if his elbow is declining very quickly, we would have expected him to fall off as the season went on. Instead, he became much better. After a horrendous 9.72 ERA in June he declined to 3.72 in July, 0.00 in August, 2.57 in September and 1.50 in October.

[klaiggeb]

Rog, remember a number of years back when I coined the term: Final Spurt Year?

That's what I think we got from Sergio late last year. His FSY.


Man, I flat out LOVE the guy!

Not the talent of so many, many others, but what heart! What guts!

He has ONE PITCH! ONE! And he makes it work!!!!



His slider... though it still has it's moments, well, I can see he was missing more and more with it, and, as the season wore on, it bit less and less.

Personally, I think he reached down DEEP to recover as he did, which is why I commend him so highly for his heart, but at the same time, consider it his FSY


But that slider is one HARD pitch on the arm.


I didn't throw hard, but I had immaculate control, an UNHITTABLE curve ball, and a nasty, nasty slider.

I was pitching in the military around 1978, and doing very, very well on a VERY, VERY bad team.

I remember the moment like it was yesterday; slider, down and away.

As I released it, I felt a "pop" in my elbow. No pain, just a "pop," but from that moment on, my slider was gone.

Oh, it broke all right, but it didn't snap like it used to, and that made it inconsistant and hittable.

Sliders... such a great pitch, so tough on the arm.


For years, many pitching coaches didn't want their pitchers to throw it. And I understand why.

boly

[rxmeister]

Randy mentioned in another post that he watched the World Series film. I don't know how you can watch that and not be overjoyed that Peavy's back. The guy's a leader and his excitement and enthusiasm are contagious. And not only did he take less money and years to stay, he insisted on a no trade contract! That's how much he loves it here. Romo is another one who came out and said he could've gotten more but he "belongs in black and orange." And this was after Dood insisted he wanted to be a Dodger. Doesn't it account for something that these two love being Giants? Especially in an offseason where Panda literally spit in our faces.

[sfgdood]

Uh, no...16 postseason IP, 18 hits allowed, 9 walks issued, 11 earned runs allowed. The worst part of the signing is the full no trade clause, which is pretty much unheard of for a 2 year contract. I have a bad feeling that Bochy let his personal feelings for Peavy get in the way of the best interest of the team.

[klaiggeb]

I'm glad Peavy's back, make no mistake.

It's just that like Randy, I wish we had gotten one BIG

[klaiggeb]

...ARM. Is what I meant to finish that wish.

I haven't heard that Shields has signed yet, so though I'm not hopeful, my fingers ARE crossed.

boly

[Rog]

Boly -- 1-Cain. Ya'll may be convinced he'll revert to form, but until I see him pitch, I can't and won't. And if he does, I raise my ranking to "above average," nothing more.

Rog -- It's not that we're convinced he'll revert to form; it's that there seems no strong reason to doubt it. How well have we seen pitchers come back from Tommy John surgery?

One would be John himself. Had he not missed his 32-year-old season due to the surgery, he likely would have won the extra dozen games that would have given him the magic 300 plateau and be a Hall of Famer. When he returned from the surgery at age, he put up ERA's of 3.09, 2.78, 3.30, 2.96, 3.43 and 2.63 in his age 33 through 38 seasons.

In other words, John had a far more (and at that point untested) surgery than Cain at three years older than Matt, and bounced back at age 33 with six seasons that were slightly better than his previous six.

Do we know Matt will bounce back? Well, we're not doctors. But why isn't it reasonable that he would? Given that his surgery is far less than Tommy John to the same part of the body (elbow) and that he is three years younger than John himself at the time of the surgery, doesn't it seem overly pessimistic that he wouldn't return reasonably well?

Cup half full vs. cup half empty. The evidence seems to be on the side of the "fuller" cup.

Boly -- 2-Peavy-He's on the down side of his career, and OTHER than his 12 or so games with us, he was, well, below average. So let's estimate on the high side next year for Jake; He'll be average. But in the 3 spot in the rotation? Sorry, but that dog won't hunt. At this stage in his career, he's a bottom of the rotation guy.

Rog -- Let's say you're right. Jake is an average pitcher. (Not a bad assumption IMO, although he seems to like the National League better for whatever reason.) An average pitcher is by definition a #3 starter. (1+2+3+4+5/5+3) Jake may be #3 or he may be #4 with the Giants, so he's well-positioned even if he's average.

Boly -- I see both him and Hudson as 4 to 5 inning pitchers most of the time out, and that over the long haul of the year, with Peavy, Hudson and Lincecum back-to-back-to-back, it's a bullpen killer

Rog -- Last season Peavy averaged 6.3 innings per out, making your 4-5 inning projection perhaps even more pessimistic than your believing that Cain won't successfully return from what wasn't a really bad surgery. Hudson averaged 6.1 innings, which is a heck of a lot higher than 4-5. Even Lincecum, for all his late-season struggles, averaged 5.6 innings.

Together, the trio averaged just over six innings per outing. And now, a year later, they're suddenly going to pitch just 4-5 innings more times than not? Doesn't seem logical.



Boly -- 3-Hudson-See Peavy above.

Rog -- Yes, see above!

Boly -- 4-Lincecum-I've talke about him, explained my rationale and reasons adnaseum. No need to do it again.

Rog -- If you're right about Tim, Yusmeiro Petit has looked darn good the past two seasons. Holding right-handed batters to the lowest average of any NL pitcher? That doesn't make him a good candidate for a NUMBER FIVE starter? Heck, that sounds more like a #1 or #2.

In short, many pitchers have recovered quite well from lesser surgery than Matt Cain's. Peavy, Lincecum and Hudson averaged over six innings between them. Petit seems a strong candidate should Lincecum fail as the #5 starter.

I don't see the likelihood of a problem. Not when one looks at all the evidence.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2641/enema-merry-christmas-happy-hanuka#ixzz3NOYD1V7U

[Rog]

Of course it would be great to get another arm, but with about $30 million likely in the budget, how would you yourself have gone about filling left field, third base, at least one starter and a reliever?

I realize your plan hinges strongly on being able to trade Tim Lincecum, but let's suppose that isn't possible. And the Giants aren't going to play Buster at third base, so no point in factoring that possibility in.

How do you use the $30 million? Now, let's suppose the Giants CAN trade Lincecum if they eat half his salary. Let's call the result $40 million. Now how would you have proceeded?

I like the ideas you originally presented. Buster isn't going to happen, and Tim likely can't be traded unless the Giants eat a lot of his salary (something they haven't done much of in the past). Now we need a plan that is PRACTICAL, one that has meaning in the present environment.