Who deserves more credit/blame?

[Rog]

Randy -- Several pieces of the 2013 rotation for whatever reason had significant drop-offs from their 2012 numbers. Since that has a little probability of happening again, you are probably right about the rotation. However I doubt anyone would have felt that way before the 2013 season began.

Rog -- I worry about the possible drop off after the extended workload of the 2014 season. Bumgarner led the major leagues with 270 innings pitched IIRC.

But I like Peavy better than Vogelsong (although I'm a supporter of Ryan and think he was a little under-appreciated in 2014. I am particularly excited to have Matt Cain back. I don't think his surgery was overly serious, and I see no reason he shouldn't be able to bounce back at the age of 30.

Age is a concern with Tim Hudson, whose hip bothered him late last season after a phenomenal start to the year. To a lesser concern, age is a concern with Peavy, who is a Giants-type pitcher who is tenacious on the mound and good in the clubhouse.

Randy -- Bullpen, pretty even I would say

Rog -- I like it better because of those young guys you tout as being able to replace Sergio Romo. The past couple of years I have been predicting declines from Romo and Santiago Casilla, but those declines -- especially in the case of Casilla -- have been somewhat limited.

Randy -- 2013 Infield would have been better if Scutaro was healthy, but still might be better if McGehee doesn't have another unexpectedly great year.

Rog -- This one could go either way, depending in part on health.

I think Brandon Belt is on the verge of a breakthrough, and if he can stay healthy, that will help make up for some of the loss of Sandoval. Having Joe Panik the full year should be a clear help. Brandon Crawford seems to be improving incrementally each season. And as you mention, the newly acquired Casey McGehee could play a part in our forgetting about Pablo, or Casey could merely escalate our concerns.

I think McGehee, who batted mostly cleanup last season behind Mike Stanton, will be OK. He'll likely bat 6th or even 7th, and for those spots he is a very good RBI man.

Randy -- If Pagan can stay healthy this year's OF could be better...but it would just be the lesser of two awfuls

Rog -- Pagan's health is always a concern, although it is mitigated somewhat by Gregor Blanco. The key to the outfield will be Pagan's health and which outfielder the Giants are able to acquire for left field.

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[Rog]

Randy -- If Pagan can stay healthy this year's OF could be better...but it would just be the lesser of two awfuls

Rog -- When Pagan was healthy last season, the Giants' outfield could hardly be called awful. Pagan was fine in center, Pence was good in right, and the combination of Morse (offense) and Blanco (defense) in left field wasn't bad, either.

Despite both Pagan and Morse missing significant time to injury, they combined with Pence to hit.283/.336/.439/.775. That's far from awful.

If Pagan is healthy all year long, center field will be improved. Right field should remain about the same. (Pence hit just below his career averages.) Left field remains a mystery, of course, since the Giants haven't filled it. It will likely be within shouting distance of last year's left field, which featured good hitting coupled with poor defense.

For now, let's just give the outfield an incomplete -- since it isn't completed yet.

I think next year's team could be the better of the two, which would be good considering they barely made the postseason. One thing I'm pretty sure of is that next year's team will be better than the 2013 postseason team. And I say that even though the Giants went 9-4 in the postseason.

I certainly don't expect this year's team to win more than that excellent .692 winning percentage. But I think the team will be better. Or maybe not, since the Giants' pitching was phenomenal in the postseason. Which is unusual, given that Madison Bumgarner was the only strong starter, and Hunter Strickland was abysmal in the bullpen.

The other relievers were phenomenal though.

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[sfgdood]

2013 team didn't make the playoffs dude

[donk33]

Dec 25, 2014 12:01:35 GMT -5 Rog said:

Mark -- I actually think DK is right when he says they acquired Duffy because they were unsure of Speier. Chris was just a rookie and they worried his good start was a flash in the pan. They were in first place after a long drought and they were concerned that this was their one area of weakness.

Rog -- You guys could be right, but Duffy started just three games in four months. Does that sound like a guy who was given a chance at a job?

As mentioned before, Speier was hitting .271 at the time of the trade. Immediately, he went 1 for 17. Sounds like the perfect time to give Duffy at least one start, doesn't it? But Speier kept starting, and it wasn't until the second game of a double header -- the Giants' 9th games after the trade -- that Duffy finally got a start.

In fact, all but one of Duffy's two starts came in the second game of double headers, a time when starters were often rested.

Chris had a very poor second half to the season, batting just .207, .232 and .161 in July, August and September. Despite that, Duffy made only one start after July 2nd and none after July 25th. Wouldn't Duffy have been given a decent shot if the Giants were worried about Speier?

On September 3rd after entering in the 5th inning, Duffy went 3 for 3. Wouldn't that have been the perfect time to reward him with a start? Yet he played in only four games and batted just one time the rest of the season.

There is one piece of evidence that supports Don's and Mark's point of view. After a .313 April, Chris hit just .189 in May, and it was May 29th that the trade was made.

Yet Duffy was used as a seeming afterthought the rest of the season, even when Chris went into slumps. In fact, Duffy's 3 for 3 game after taking over for Chris in the 5th came just as Speier was starting a 3 for 40 slump.

One guy goes 3 for 3, while another is going 3 for 40. Wouldn't that be the time to put the 3 for 3 guy into the lineup, even if no other time during the season was? Yet Duffy didn't make a single start the rest of the way.

Duffy batted 29 times in four months as a Giant. I have a feeling he went on the disabled list once for roughly the 15-day minimum, so make it 3 1/2 months. If Duffy were truly brought in because of concerns about Speier, wouldn't the Giants somehow have found more than 29 at bats for him?

The May thing is the only factor I can find that could be an indication that what Don and Mark said was indeed the case. Still, the day of the trade, Chris was 5 for 15 with a double and a homer. Guys in slumps tend to strike out a lot, but Chris struck out only 3 times in 66 at bats. It sounds as if he may have been hitting in bad luck that month. Despite striking out only 10 times and homering twice during the month, he had only a .188 BABIP in May. Sounds like he might indeed have been hitting in tough luck.

I was reasonably close to the situation, and I don't remember anything that would indicate that Duffy's arrival caused any consternation on Chris' part.

In kind of a fun side note, a decade and a half later I heard my mom and dad's names spoken on the Giants' telecast, as the announcer said that Chris and Aleta wanted to thank my parents for baby sitting their kids so Aleta could accompany Chris to San Diego for the weekend Padres series. I have to admit I was shocked.

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dk..my original answer got lost in the dumpster...almost hit Sabean on the way in.....the fact that Duffy didn't play ...are you dissing the GM or MGR..as they used to say.."you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"...It reminds me on how the Giants brought up Ellison after hitting over .400 and sat him on the bench and kept the over the hill Finley stay in the lineup and stink up the joint....As far as Chris making the All- Star Team...his first year, looking at stats, he was probably the only Giants available...I can't vouch for the other years...Concepcion started off slowly in his career, but ended up 9 A-S Teams, 5 Gold Gloves...Chris none..I MVP and 2 Silver Bats...Chris got 0.2% of the votes in the only year he got HOF votes...Dave got 16.9% of the votes in the best of many years of HOF votes.....I was a Speier fan, but I don't think he ranks with Dave.....

[Rog]

Don -- Concepcion started off slowly in his career, but ended up 9 A-S Teams, 5 Gold Gloves...Chris none..I MVP and 2 Silver Bats...Chris got 0.2% of the votes in the only year he got HOF votes...Dave got 16.9% of the votes in the best of many years of HOF votes.....I was a Speier fan, but I don't think he ranks with Dave...

Rog -- You are right on the money, which is why I posted: You mentioned Dave Concepcion, and he was indeed a fine player, having a clearly better career than Speier.

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[Rog]

Randy -- 2013 team didn't make the playoffs dude

Rog -- I'm sorry. I misread. I thought you were comparing the 2014 team with the upcoming 2015 team. This year's team is highly likely to be better than the 2013 squad.

In great part it may come down to injuries though. I think the two most impressive things about this year's team was their ability to overcome injuries and to overcome a dreadful middle of the season.

By the way, I thought you were the dude.

[Islandboagie]

No..he's the Dood..obviously.

As far as the Giants being better this year than 2013..I'm not yet convinced. Our starting rotation was better. Matt Cain wasn't coming off surgery. The feeling was still optimistic that Lincecum could bounce back in 2013, the feeling now is less than optimistic. In 2013 it was looking like Zito had found his second wind, and Vogelsong was coming off a good year and a great post season.

This season I'm not as optimistic about our rotation. But that doesn't mean I don't still have hope.

The big improvement over now and 2013 is the bench. That was the big worry for me in 2013. They didn't feel the need to resign Theriot or any replacement that could fill in adequately if one of our infielders or outfielders went down. Which is what happened a lot in 2013.

This season I think we have a very strong bench. Susac, Duffy, Arias, Ishikawa, Blanco...perhaps Sanchez, Perez and Adrianza somewhere in the mix depending on last minute moves. I'm very confident with that bunch coming in and picking up the slack if need be. And they also give us strong right and left handed pinch hitters off the bench (Susac and Ishikawa) and a few very good pinch runners to choose from (Duffy and Blanco.) But of course this is all contingent on whether or not they get someone like Zobrist. If Ishikawa and Blanco are platooning that takes away some of that bench strength.

[sfgdood]

No..he's the Dood..obviously.

Dood - or Dooder...or El Dooderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing

[Rog]

Boagie -- As far as the Giants being better this year than 2013.. I'm not yet convinced.

Rog -- Well, they're not done yet. The big killers in 2013 were the loss of Marco Scutaro, the collapse and injury to Ryan Vogelsong.

Boagie -- Our starting rotation was better. Matt Cain wasn't coming off surgery. The feeling was still optimistic that Lincecum could bounce back in 2013, the feeling now is less than optimistic. In 2013 it was looking like Zito had found his second wind, and Vogelsong was coming off a good year and a great post season.

Rog -- I don't think the rotation WAS better, although I agree it appeared to be. Lincecum did bounce back some, but not as much as I expected. We expected a better season from Cain, and I suspect his difficulties were elbow-related. As for Zito, he was a mirage that disguised what wasn't really that good a 2012 season.

Very good run support (4.76) made it appear he was a winner (15-8 record). But he was really just the same old Barry Zito and not as good as he had been as recently as 2010. In terms of Wins Above Replacement, he actually had his worst season as a Giant aside from his injury-riddled 2011 season.

Some got excited by Barry's excellent won-loss record without realizing he didn't have nearly as much to do with it as it appeared. He went a spectacular 7-1 in August and September -- while posting a 4.61 ERA. If one looked closely for the improvement, he didn't see it. Because it was a mirage.

Boagie -- This season I'm not as optimistic about our rotation. But that doesn't mean I don't still have hope.

Rog -- I am optimistic that the Giants' rotation will be better this season than in 2013.

Bumgarner is a better pitcher now than he was two years ago.

Cain's good health makes him a good bounce back candidate.

Peavy will almost certainly outpitch the 2013 version of Zito.

Lincecum might have as good a year as 2013 and has shown signs he might be better if he can regain even a modicum of consistency.

Hard to imagine Hudson's being as bad and unhealthy this season as Ryan was in 2013.

Boagie -- The big improvement over now and 2013 is the bench. That was the big worry for me in 2013. They didn't feel the need to resign Theriot or any replacement that could fill in adequately if one of our infielders or outfielders went down. Which is what happened a lot in 2013.

This season I think we have a very strong bench. Susac, Duffy, Arias, Ishikawa, Blanco...perhaps Sanchez, Perez and Adrianza somewhere in the mix depending on last minute moves. I'm very confident with that bunch coming in and picking up the slack if need be. And they also give us strong right and left handed pinch hitters off the bench (Susac and Ishikawa) and a few very good pinch runners to choose from (Duffy and Blanco.) But of course this is all contingent on whether or not they get someone like Zobrist. If Ishikawa and Blanco are platooning that takes away some of that bench strength.

Rog -- True enough. I have a question regarding the bench.

Would the Giants and Matt Duffy be better served by having him be a utility man for the Giants or by being a starting infielder for the River Cats?



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