sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 23, 2014 13:32:34 GMT -5
Brian Sabean deserves some credit for the championships. There's little doubt about that. He worked his ass off in those years and gave Bochy the tools he needed to work his magic. Or...was it more Bochy making Sabean look better than he deserved to? Did Bochy also deserve more blame for the years in between where the Giants missed the playoffs? Or does Sabean's methods lend themselves to being less consistent in a year in year out basis in terms of his teams making the playoffs?
I'm more inclined to believe more in Bochy than Sabean. I'm not a fan of the way Sabean does his business. He clearly has left some FAs out there who have been ripe to be signed by the Giants and whether you say the Giants "tried" hard enough or you feel like the glut of failure to sign these top players is a pattern, it's clear that something different needs to be done...either we need more top prospects in the system who are able to contribute in a BIG way or we need to improve the way we go about courting FAs.
Most fans REFUSE to give any blame at all to either Sabean or Bochy for the failures of 2011 and 2013. And even if we do level some blame to one of them, it surely must not diminish the credit they both get for the championship years. Personally, I find it extremely frustrating that we continue to miss the playoffs following a title year. And I give Sabean more of the blame because I don't like the way he leaves things to chance and then when needed he'll pick off the scrap heap or try to swing a deal at the deadline. By that time it's usually too late to change matters significantly, just as it was too late for the Dodgers in 2012 when they made THEIR big deadline deal. Of course on the other hand, it might be more frustrating to be a Braves fan who watched their team win division title after division title with just ONE measly championship to go with them.
I freely admit that after waiting my whole life for just one title, I have become spoiled by the success. But it's mostly because I know this kind of run is fleeting if you don't take full advantage of the players and the manager that are still in place. One day the core players will see their skills diminish, or some of them (like Pablo) will leave town for whatever reason. One day this golden age of success for the Giants will be at an end...and I'd love to see that time indefinitely postponed. And I would VERY much love to see this trend of missing the playoffs after a title year be reversed.
I just don't see that Sabean is all that committed to bucking the trend. And that would be fine IF...IF...the Giants still have enough talent in 2016 to work their even numbered year magic again. To me that seems like not a sure thing because as much as people are talking about how much money will come off the books, the Giants still need to be able to convince good players to come here and that is not something they have a good track record with.
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Post by Islandboagie on Dec 23, 2014 14:56:53 GMT -5
I didn't like the pierzynski trade when it happened, I voiced my anger here.
I didn't like the Beltran trade either. The only two people who were against it were Rog and I. I might add, if that trade was never made we wouldn't have had to resign Peavy this off season and would have more money to spend. Where were you then?
Those are two instances where Sabean should take blame.
I voiced my displeasure with Bochy continuously batting Rowand leadoff. I complained when Orlando Cabrera and Miguel Tejada started at shortstop while Crawford sat.
I thought Ishikawa was treated poorly after the 2010 season as he was discarded for Belt whom I thought was rushed to the Major League level.
If you think there are fans out there that think Sabean and Bochy are incapable of being wrong, I think I've presented enough evidence here to prove that I'm not one of those fans.
However, I am a fan who was against many more decisions that turned out to be good moves in the end.
How many of us were against the Matt Williams trade?
I know I was against trading Torres and Ramirez for Pagan. We don't win in 2012 without Pagan.
You were against Ishikawa starting against St. Louis in the NLCS. Ishikawa had 7 RBIs in that series.
So yeah, sometimes all of us complain, but I think we've been more wrong than right when second guessing Bochy and Sabean. So, while I'm sure I'll still have questions about some of their methods, it's also gotten to the point where I recognize that Sabean and Bochy know more than I do. And in the end, I'll yield to their track record, its that only fair?
They're more successful than all the other GMs and managers out there, I'm pretty sure they be more successful than us too.
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 23, 2014 15:28:49 GMT -5
Well thought out by both of you. I liked the Pierzynski trade, and even though it seemed like one of the all time worst deals after it was made, history has kind of softened the blow. Liriano and Bonser hurt their arms, and you would trade a good everyday catcher who could hit for a closer any day of the week. AJ being an ass was the biggest problem of the deal, and this forced the Giants to cut him loose after the season. If AJ had good character, he might have stayed here long term, been a real asset, and it would have been a classic example of not judging a trade till years after it was made. The Pagan trade I was for from day one, because being in NY I saw him with the Mets every day and I saw how underrated he was. The extension ain't looking too good right now though, and it's one of those things I think Randy forgets when he complains about the payroll. There's plenty of money there not being used to its fullest because injuries can't be predicted. I don't think you can blame Sabean for this offseason though when it comes to the big free agents. He lost out on Panda and Lester who were two of the biggest and he didn't lose out because the Giants were cheap, they just wanted to be elsewhere. It's not a matter of saying, "well Lester turned down 155 million, so let's just give it to someone else." If Sabean doesn't care for what's out there, he's right to save the money for when he thinks it's right to use it. I sensed a level of frustration in Sabean too, when he said the other day basically that free agents from other teams don't realize how great it is to be in San Francisco playing for the Giants, and that's their loss. After three championships in five years and a sold out ballpark every night, free agents still hesitate to come here? Has to be frustrating for him. However I think he's done well with the budget he has to work with, and if you think the Giants aren't a contender with the team they have right now, you're just wrong. And we all know he's not done so let's sit back and see what he does.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 23, 2014 15:53:42 GMT -5
I hope you're right Rx but I just don't see it that way at all. I see the Giants missing out on the division title once again and maybe finishing behind San Diego as well. We are greatly diminished at two key offensive positions and we missed a huge opportunity to upgrade the rotation. It will take some good fortune to make up for that. And as for Sabean not being "done" exactly what is still out there off the scrap heap that would definitely change the game in our favor?
I would already be looking forward to 2016 and all the money coming off the books but for the fact that Sabean has proven himself utterly incapable of luring top free agents here, not even after a championship year.
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Post by Rog on Dec 23, 2014 22:29:05 GMT -5
Boagie -- How many of us were against the Matt Williams trade? Rog -- I wasn't against it because my dad, who died about half a year before the trade, had faith in Brian, which wsa the reason I did, as well. I do think Brian got a little lucky on that one (as I believe Don has mentioned, maybe it was Allen). Jeff Kent turned out to be a better player than Matt, and Jeff wasn't the marquis piece in the deal from the Giants' standpoint. Boagie -- I know I was against trading Torres and Ramirez for Pagan. We don't win in 2012 without Pagan. Rog -- I know I was against that one originally, although I might have changed my mind after thinking it through. That kind of rings a bell, but all I know for sure is that I was against it initially. A signing I DID quickly change my mind on was Mike Morse. I was initially against it before realizing I had wanted the Giants to sign him a year before and nothing had really changed to make me change my mind. The Cepeda for Sadecki trade is considered one of the worst in Giants history. It wasn't good, but Sadecki did pitch well for a while. Gaylord Perry for Sam McDowell laid an egg from the start. George Foster for Vern Geishart and Frank Duffy was horrible, and later the Pierzynski trade became one of the worst (at least until the Beltran trade). By the way, Duffy was involved in what might be the two worst trades of all. The Giants acquired him in the Foster deal and then six months later to the day, traded him away along with Perry. Just ghastly. Those two trades had a lot to do with the 1970's being a lost decade. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2637/who-deserves-more-credit-blame#ixzz3MmWwDumy
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Post by Rog on Dec 23, 2014 22:31:04 GMT -5
The bottom line, by the way, is that both Bochy and Sabean are pretty good. Each was important to the three titles in five years.
Bochy will likely make the Hall of Fame, even though he wasn't very well thought of on this board until the 2010 post season.
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 24, 2014 8:11:45 GMT -5
At least the Cepeda-Sadecki (who died recently) deal and the AJ deal made sense at the time. The Giants were loaded at 1B and OF and needed pitching. They needed a catcher when they brought in AJ. Perry for McDowell simply made no sense. The Giants desperately needed a top starter to add to the team, but they traded a top starter to get him. What sense did that make? And of course it backfired as they didn't do their homework enough to know that Sudden Sam was an alcoholic. I guess that was the same mistake Sabean made when he didn't seem to know what a clubhouse cancer Pierzynski was.
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Post by Rog on Dec 24, 2014 9:48:28 GMT -5
Mark -- At least the Cepeda-Sadecki (who died recently) deal and the AJ deal made sense at the time. The Giants were loaded at 1B and OF and needed pitching. Rog -- Ray was very good for the Giants for a while. He simply didn't last. Cepeda had missed most of the previous season with a significant knee injury. Mark -- They needed a catcher when they brought in AJ. Rog -- Actually, the Giants already had Yorvit Torrealba, but where they most went wrong was in undervaluing Joe Nathan because he had a poor postseason in 2003. Mark -- Perry for McDowell simply made no sense. The Giants desperately needed a top starter to add to the team, but they traded a top starter to get him. What sense did that make? And of course it backfired as they didn't do their homework enough to know that Sudden Sam was an alcoholic. I guess that was the same mistake Sabean made when he didn't seem to know what a clubhouse cancer Pierzynski was. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2637/who-deserves-more-credit-blame#ixzz3MpICWk6B
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Post by Islandboagie on Dec 24, 2014 12:50:42 GMT -5
Rog- Bochy will likely make the Hall of Fame, even though he wasn't very well thought of on this board until the 2010 post season.
Boagie- I loved when the Giants chose Bochy to be the manager. At that point I already considered him a great manager. Quickly we saw a transformation from the Alou split clubhouse into a Bochy clubhouse that would do anything for each other, and point blame at themselves rather than each other. However, Bochy did give me fits with his reluctancy to bunt runners over when it was critical to do so. That part of his style has changed over the last few years and IMO he's become an even better manager because of it.
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Post by donk33 on Dec 24, 2014 13:14:18 GMT -5
Mark -- At least the Cepeda-Sadecki (who died recently) deal and the AJ deal made sense at the time. The Giants were loaded at 1B and OF and needed pitching. Rog -- Ray was very good for the Giants for a while. He simply didn't last. Cepeda had missed most of the previous season with a significant knee injury. Mark -- They needed a catcher when they brought in AJ. Rog -- Actually, the Giants already had Yorvit Torrealba, but where they most went wrong was in undervaluing Joe Nathan because he had a poor postseason in 2003.dk...if Nathan's 2003 record was bad, I hope all the Giants pitchers have a bad season in 2015...Joe was 12-4 with a 2.96 ERA in 79 games....bringing in AJ was terrible as the whole baseball world knew he was "trouble", getting rid of him was even worse...as bad as his reputation was, there was always some team that would take a chance on him...to release him was foolish as they probably could have got some prospects for him... Mark -- Perry for McDowell simply made no sense. The Giants desperately needed a top starter to add to the team, but they traded a top starter to get him. What sense did that make? And of course it backfired as they didn't do their homework enough to know that Sudden Sam was an alcoholic. I guess that was the same mistake Sabean made when he didn't seem to know what a clubhouse cancer Pierzynski was.dk..I think the reason for the Perry trade was to get in some left handed help...but I don't remember for sure....the Foster trade ended up a disaster, but Foster looked completely over matched as a Giant, and if I remember right the Reds had to send him down to beef up....Duffy was brought in because the Giants weren't sure about Speier...Duffy was a starting shortstop eventually for the Indians..
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Post by Rog on Dec 24, 2014 14:46:06 GMT -5
dk..I think the reason for the Perry trade was to get in some left handed help...but I don't remember for sure.... Rog -- I think the Giants may have done it because Sudden Sam was four years younger. The Giants probably thought he would last longer than Gaylord! Don -- the Foster trade ended up a disaster, but Foster looked completely over matched as a Giant, and if I remember right the Reds had to send him down to beef up.... Rog -- Because I was with a friend who was a Giants minor league teammate of George in 1969, I got to briefly meet George. He did indeed look almost shriveled up. And he did spend most of the 1973 season at Indianapolis,where he hit all of 15 homers. Don -- Duffy was brought in because the Giants weren't sure about Speier... Rog -- You have mentioned this before, Don, but I'm not sure it is accurate. The day of the trade Chris was hitting .271 and had started 45 of the Giants' 48 games. The day of the trade, he was batting second, which was his primary spot in the order that season. What was the reason the Giants should worry? Chris was one of the top rookies in 1971, made the All-Star team in 1972 through 1974 and was an All-Star starter in 1973. Duffy wound up with just 28 at bats with the Giants in 1971 despite being on the roster for four months. Don -- Duffy was a starting shortstop eventually for the Indians.. Rog -- That's what made the Perry trade even worse. They didn't just trade Gaylord for McDowell. They threw in Duffy, who as you mention, went on to have 2700 plate appearances with the Indians in his seven seasons with the Indians. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2637/who-deserves-more-credit-blame#ixzz3MqN83ShV
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Post by donk33 on Dec 24, 2014 16:01:35 GMT -5
dk..I think the reason for the Perry trade was to get in some left handed help...but I don't remember for sure.... Rog -- I think the Giants may have done it because Sudden Sam was four years younger. The Giants probably thought he would last longer than Gaylord!dk...did they call him sudden Sam??? I seem to remember a sudden Sam Jones... Don -- the Foster trade ended up a disaster, but Foster looked completely over matched as a Giant, and if I remember right the Reds had to send him down to beef up.... Rog -- Because I was with a friend who was a Giants minor league teammate of George in 1969, I got to briefly meet George. He did indeed look almost shriveled up. And he did spend most of the 1973 season at Indianapolis,where he hit all of 15 homers. Don -- Duffy was brought in because the Giants weren't sure about Speier... Rog -- You have mentioned this before, Don, but I'm not sure it is accurate. The day of the trade Chris was hitting .271 and had started 45 of the Giants' 48 games. The day of the trade, he was batting second, which was his primary spot in the order that season. What was the reason the Giants should worry?dk..Speier was out of AA and was no sure bet to be ready....haven't we learned yet that there is no sure thing based on month or so of performance to judge a player on...ah, how I remember how Ellison started off with the Giants.. Chris was one of the top rookies in 1971, made the All-Star team in 1972 through 1974 and was an All-Star starter in 1973. Duffy wound up with just 28 at bats with the Giants in 1971 despite being on the roster for four months.dk..I'm not knocking Speier's record, but he still was a question mark when the trade was made....Duffy was rated one of the top prospects in the minors ...once... Don -- Duffy was a starting shortstop eventually for the Indians.. Rog -- That's what made the Perry trade even worse. They didn't just trade Gaylord for McDowell. They threw in Duffy, who as you mention, went on to have 2700 plate appearances with the Indians in his seven seasons with the Indians. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2637/who-deserves-more-credit-blame#ixzz3MqN83ShV
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Post by Rog on Dec 24, 2014 20:57:25 GMT -5
Randy -- I see the Giants missing out on the division title once again and maybe finishing behind San Diego as well. Rog -- As long as the Giants make the playoffs, how much does that matter? They've done it before. As for what we see for the Giants, how can we know that yet when we don't know all their moves -- or all those of other teams, for that matter? I'm going to say what Aaron Rodgers said to the Packers fans when they got ahead of themselves as the Packers were getting off to a slow start: R-E-L-A-X. It's worked pretty well for the Packers after that slow start. Perhaps it can work well for the Giants and their fans, as well. Remember, there's almost always someone who goes overboard in one direction or the other. What if we had given up on the Giants at mid-season when they had played some of the worst ball in the majors over a prolonged period of time? It's almost Christmas and time to count our blessings. The Giants have certainly given us plenty of them. Let's take ourselves back five years. I don't think we could have imagined in our wildest dreams what has happened in the five seasons since. R-E-L-A-X Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2637/who-deserves-more-credit-blame#ixzz3Ms1VGwMK
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Post by Rog on Dec 24, 2014 20:58:56 GMT -5
Merry Christmas to everyone. Hope this is a time of both excitement and peace for you and your families and friends.
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 24, 2014 23:22:09 GMT -5
I actually think DK is right when he says they acquired Duffy because they were unsure of Speier. Chris was just a rookie and they worried his good start was a flash in the pan. They were in first place after a long drought and they were concerned that this was their one area of weakness.
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Post by Islandboagie on Dec 25, 2014 0:25:56 GMT -5
Merry Christmas to everyone. Hope this is a time of both excitement and peace for you and your families and friends.
Boagie- Merry Christmas to you, Rog, and everyone else. Just so you all know, I'm leaving on vacation so I won't be around for about 3 weeks.
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Post by donk33 on Dec 25, 2014 1:20:33 GMT -5
I actually think DK is right when he says they acquired Duffy because they were unsure of Speier. Chris was just a rookie and they worried his good start was a flash in the pan. They were in first place after a long drought and they were concerned that this was their one area of weakness. dk...actually, I had been hearing about Duffy long before I knew anything about Speier....Duffy was always talked about as being one of the top prospects in the minors. Could be Chris was a spark plug in his rookie year, but let's face It, he was a .235 hitter and he ended with a career .247...I don't think Chris nor Duffy would move Davey Concepcion out of the line up of the Reds...
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 25, 2014 4:03:25 GMT -5
It's almost Christmas and time to count our blessings. The Giants have certainly given us plenty of them. Let's take ourselves back five years. I don't think we could have imagined in our wildest dreams what has happened in the five seasons since.
R-E-L-A-X
Dood - Fully relaxed and grateful for all the recent success of my team...but that doesn't mean I blindly believe the success will continue when they fail to make offseason deals that have a chance of improving the club after losing two of its best hitters
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 25, 2014 10:22:36 GMT -5
Pagan is back, Matt Cain is back, Jake Peavy is here from day one, and Casey McGehee is more than an adequate replacement for Pablo if he does what he did in 2014. And the Giants aren't done. I'm thrilled about this year, excited for next year, and wishing happy holidays to all!
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Post by Rog on Dec 25, 2014 12:01:35 GMT -5
Mark -- I actually think DK is right when he says they acquired Duffy because they were unsure of Speier. Chris was just a rookie and they worried his good start was a flash in the pan. They were in first place after a long drought and they were concerned that this was their one area of weakness. Rog -- You guys could be right, but Duffy started just three games in four months. Does that sound like a guy who was given a chance at a job? As mentioned before, Speier was hitting .271 at the time of the trade. Immediately, he went 1 for 17. Sounds like the perfect time to give Duffy at least one start, doesn't it? But Speier kept starting, and it wasn't until the second game of a double header -- the Giants' 9th games after the trade -- that Duffy finally got a start. In fact, all but one of Duffy's two starts came in the second game of double headers, a time when starters were often rested. Chris had a very poor second half to the season, batting just .207, .232 and .161 in July, August and September. Despite that, Duffy made only one start after July 2nd and none after July 25th. Wouldn't Duffy have been given a decent shot if the Giants were worried about Speier? On September 3rd after entering in the 5th inning, Duffy went 3 for 3. Wouldn't that have been the perfect time to reward him with a start? Yet he played in only four games and batted just one time the rest of the season. There is one piece of evidence that supports Don's and Mark's point of view. After a .313 April, Chris hit just .189 in May, and it was May 29th that the trade was made. Yet Duffy was used as a seeming afterthought the rest of the season, even when Chris went into slumps. In fact, Duffy's 3 for 3 game after taking over for Chris in the 5th came just as Speier was starting a 3 for 40 slump. One guy goes 3 for 3, while another is going 3 for 40. Wouldn't that be the time to put the 3 for 3 guy into the lineup, even if no other time during the season was? Yet Duffy didn't make a single start the rest of the way. Duffy batted 29 times in four months as a Giant. I have a feeling he went on the disabled list once for roughly the 15-day minimum, so make it 3 1/2 months. If Duffy were truly brought in because of concerns about Speier, wouldn't the Giants somehow have found more than 29 at bats for him? The May thing is the only factor I can find that could be an indication that what Don and Mark said was indeed the case. Still, the day of the trade, Chris was 5 for 15 with a double and a homer. Guys in slumps tend to strike out a lot, but Chris struck out only 3 times in 66 at bats. It sounds as if he may have been hitting in bad luck that month. Despite striking out only 10 times and homering twice during the month, he had only a .188 BABIP in May. Sounds like he might indeed have been hitting in tough luck. I was reasonably close to the situation, and I don't remember anything that would indicate that Duffy's arrival caused any consternation on Chris' part. In kind of a fun side note, a decade and a half later I heard my mom and dad's names spoken on the Giants' telecast, as the announcer said that Chris and Aleta wanted to thank my parents for baby sitting their kids so Aleta could accompany Chris to San Diego for the weekend Padres series. I have to admit I was shocked. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2637/who-deserves-more-credit-blame#ixzz3MvZpnkaR
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Post by Rog on Dec 25, 2014 12:20:46 GMT -5
Randy -- I would already be looking forward to 2016 and all the money coming off the books but for the fact that Sabean has proven himself utterly incapable of luring top free agents here, not even after a championship year. Rog -- One thing the Giants found out this winter is that if you have a lot of money coming off the books, there's a good chance you've also got a lot of holes to fill. Next year the Giants will have the "advantage" of having the unproductive and non-productive, respectively, Tim Lincecum and Marco Scutaro coming off. But they also have Tim Hudson and Jeremy Affeldt coming off, meaning they could be looking for as many as two starters and a reliever. The good news is that there may be several good starting pitchers on the market. And the Giants lost out on Pablo and Lester for other reasons besides money. The Giants can't really win with you, can they? First, they don't spend money. Then when they show they are willing to spend BIG money, you're still upset because they didn't land the fish. It's kind of like your refusal to admit the Giants are serious players in the international market even though it has been reported that they have made big offers to at least two of the top free agents there. One thing I believe we should keep in perspective. With most of the good free agents, there are usually couple of hands full of teams trying to sign them. We act as if the Giants should be able to sign every one of them. Even if the Giants had the budget to do, not every good player is going to choose the Giants. I read something just this morning that caused me a bit of concern. Last season Casey McGehee was a very poor base runner, costing his team 27 bases. By comparison, Pablo was only a minus 8. But the Giants have done decently with the $23 million they have spent for 2015, and they will spend more on an outfielder or, conceivably but not likely, on James Shields. I think the Giants would now sign Shields only if they felt he came in at a bargain. And even then, they would likely need to pare some salary. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2637/who-deserves-more-credit-blame?page=1#ixzz3MvikjOnQ
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 25, 2014 13:01:53 GMT -5
He was brought in as a precaution in case Speier was a flash in the pan and flamed out, as I said. He wasn't brought in to start. However Speier continued to play well despite the hitting woes and that's why Duffy never got off the bench.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 25, 2014 13:40:00 GMT -5
Every time I read one of Rog's posts, I wind up feeling LESS confident in the team we have
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Post by Rog on Dec 25, 2014 14:21:52 GMT -5
Randy -- but that doesn't mean I blindly believe the success will continue when they fail to make offseason deals that have a chance of improving the club after losing two of its best hitters Rog -- How do Aubrey Huff ($3 million), Juan Uribe ($1 million), Santiago Casilla ($500K), Todd Wellemeyer ($1 million), Mark DeRosa ($6 million)and Mike Fontenot ($1.05 million) sound? How about Ryan Theriot ($1.25 million), Melky Cabrera ($6.0 million), Angel Pagan ($4.85 million), Gregor Blanco ($500K) and Clay Hensley ($750K)? How about Tim Hudson ($11 million), Tim Lincecum ($17 million), Mike Morse ($6.0 million) and Ryan Vogelsong ($5.0 million)? How many of those guys were considered to be among the top free agents or trade prospects? Yet the Giants won 3 World Series with those winter acquisitions. Given that the Giants aren't even done yet, you're concerns are unfounded. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2637/who-deserves-more-credit-blame?page=1#ixzz3MwAigmrL
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Post by Rog on Dec 25, 2014 14:34:02 GMT -5
Don -- Could be Chris was a spark plug in his rookie year, but let's face It, he was a .235 hitter and he ended with a career .247.. Rog -- Chris was indeed a spark plug. He faded badly the second half, but the first half he was a very good player. Chris took over shortstop from Hal Lanier, and scored 74 runs (high for a shortstop in that era) while playing well defensively. He made a career high 33 errors, but was still considered a plus defender. Chris went on to make the All-Star team the next three seasons. There was little reason to doubt Speier. You mentioned Dave Concepcion, and he was indeed a fine player, having a clearly better career than Speier. But at that time Chris was right up there with Davey. While Chris was making the All-Star team three straight years from 1972 to 1974, Dave made the team only once during that period. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2637/who-deserves-more-credit-blame?page=1#ixzz3MwI7SSZu
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Post by Rog on Dec 25, 2014 14:35:33 GMT -5
Mark -- He was brought in as a precaution in case Speier was a flash in the pan and flamed out, as I said. He wasn't brought in to start. However Speier continued to play well despite the hitting woes and that's why Duffy never got off the bench. Rog -- I guess your context of "insurance" is right. What surprised me is that Duffy had only 29 at bats with the Giants -- in 2/3rds of a season! Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2637/who-deserves-more-credit-blame?page=1#ixzz3MwL2Dl1J
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Post by Rog on Dec 25, 2014 14:37:15 GMT -5
To put Duffy's 29 plate appearances in perspective, Matt Duffy didn't play much for the Giants this past season, yet he had twice as many plate appearances in half the time.
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Post by Rog on Dec 25, 2014 14:43:31 GMT -5
Randy -- Every time I read one of Rog's posts, I wind up feeling LESS confident in the team we have Rog -- Happy to keep your momentum going, Randy! Hey, I said you were guilty of premature speculation when on August 2, 2012. I'll say you are guilty of the same thing now, before you even know what the final move(s) will be. Someone here already posted what the Giants are relying on this season -- the healthy returns of Cain, Pagan and Belt, coupled with a full season from Joe Panik. Rotation -- Better than 2013 Bullpen -- Better than 2013 Infield -- Pretty close if Belt stays healthy Outfield -- Incomplete, but perhaps better given the 2013 time missed to injury by Pagan and Morse Where do you disagree with that analysis? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2637/who-deserves-more-credit-blame?page=1#ixzz3MwLnPLuw
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Post by donk33 on Dec 25, 2014 15:21:20 GMT -5
Mark -- I actually think DK is right when he says they acquired Duffy because they were unsure of Speier. Chris was just a rookie and they worried his good start was a flash in the pan. They were in first place after a long drought and they were concerned that this was their one area of weakness. Rog -- You guys could be right, but Duffy started just three games in four months. Does that sound like a guy who was given a chance at a job? As mentioned before, Speier was hitting .271 at the time of the trade. Immediately, he went 1 for 17. Sounds like the perfect time to give Duffy at least one start, doesn't it? But Speier kept starting, and it wasn't until the second game of a double header -- the Giants' 9th games after the trade -- that Duffy finally got a start. In fact, all but one of Duffy's two starts came in the second game of double headers, a time when starters were often rested. Chris had a very poor second half to the season, batting just .207, .232 and .161 in July, August and September. Despite that, Duffy made only one start after July 2nd and none after July 25th. Wouldn't Duffy have been given a decent shot if the Giants were worried about Speier? On September 3rd after entering in the 5th inning, Duffy went 3 for 3. Wouldn't that have been the perfect time to reward him with a start? Yet he played in only four games and batted just one time the rest of the season. There is one piece of evidence that supports Don's and Mark's point of view. After a .313 April, Chris hit just .189 in May, and it was May 29th that the trade was made. Yet Duffy was used as a seeming afterthought the rest of the season, even when Chris went into slumps. In fact, Duffy's 3 for 3 game after taking over for Chris in the 5th came just as Speier was starting a 3 for 40 slump. One guy goes 3 for 3, while another is going 3 for 40. Wouldn't that be the time to put the 3 for 3 guy into the lineup, even if no other time during the season was? Yet Duffy didn't make a single start the rest of the way. Duffy batted 29 times in four months as a Giant. I have a feeling he went on the disabled list once for roughly the 15-day minimum, so make it 3 1/2 months. If Duffy were truly brought in because of concerns about Speier, wouldn't the Giants somehow have found more than 29 at bats for him? The May thing is the only factor I can find that could be an indication that what Don and Mark said was indeed the case. Still, the day of the trade, Chris was 5 for 15 with a double and a homer. Guys in slumps tend to strike out a lot, but Chris struck out only 3 times in 66 at bats. It sounds as if he may have been hitting in bad luck that month. Despite striking out only 10 times and homering twice during the month, he had only a .188 BABIP in May. Sounds like he might indeed have been hitting in tough luck. I was reasonably close to the situation, and I don't remember anything that would indicate that Duffy's arrival caused any consternation on Chris' part. In kind of a fun side note, a decade and a half later I heard my mom and dad's names spoken on the Giants' telecast, as the announcer said that Chris and Aleta wanted to thank my parents for baby sitting their kids so Aleta could accompany Chris to San Diego for the weekend Padres series. I have to admit I was shocked.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 25, 2014 15:27:46 GMT -5
Several pieces of the 2013 rotation for whatever reason had significant drop-offs from their 2012 numbers. Since that has a little probability of happening again, you are probably right about the rotation. However I doubt anyone would have felt that way before the 2013 season began.
Bullpen, pretty even I would say
2013 Infield would have been better if Scutaro was healthy, but still might be better if McGehee doesn't have another unexpectedly great year.
If Pagan can stay healthy this year's OF could be better...but it would just be the lesser of two awfuls
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