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Failure
Dec 19, 2014 17:33:58 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2014 17:33:58 GMT -5
Boly -- To me, it would "Bumgarner and Cain, and pray for 3 days of rain." Rog -- To me it would be "Bumgarner and Cain aren't dung, and pray for the three winners of the Cy Young. You say Tim Hudson has no Cy Young's at all? We'll just have to settle for going into the Hall." Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2623/failure#ixzz3MNeSr3CB
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Failure
Dec 19, 2014 17:42:46 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2014 17:42:46 GMT -5
Randy -- well if the whole idea this offseason was to save money for the greedy owners, job well done. Rog -- To begin with, the job's not done. $19.5 million spent for 2015 with at least $10 million to go. Rog -- No Pablo, no Lester, no Shields, no Upton even...no anybody worth anything. Rog -- Yup. The guy with the lowest WHIP in history for any pitcher with 350 or more innings plus a former Cy Young winner aren't worth anything. Their ERA's with the Giants are 2.51 and 2.17. WAY too high. Their WHIP's are 0.93 and 1.04. Again, WAY too high. I'm not saying these guys are great, but they're both former All-Stars and have a Cy Young and five World Series rings between them. Saying they're not worth anything is just foolish. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2623/failure?page=2#ixzz3MNzZ7Aw1
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Failure
Dec 19, 2014 17:47:07 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Dec 19, 2014 17:47:07 GMT -5
FORMERLY both were worth a lot. What they will provide to the 2015 and 2016 teams is likely quite minimal at best.
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Failure
Dec 19, 2014 17:56:28 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2014 17:56:28 GMT -5
Boly -- Randy, I hate to admit it, but I agree with you; that SEEMS to be precisely what they did, and are doing. 3rd place. Rog -- As the Giants have shown twice in the past five seasons, sometimes all it takes is getting into the playoffs. I'm sorry, but you guys entered the off-season with expectations that were too high. How do you fill a $55 million bag with $30 million to spend? Boly, your plan to move Buster to third base was a good one IMO, but it just wasn't going to happen. So I guess your plan was more or less Lester and a trade for a third baseman or left fielder. Randy's plan was for the Giants to spend more money, which also wasn't very likely to happen. So you both sidestepped the question with unrealistic answers. The Giants would appear to have better starting pitching and relief pitching than the team that won the 2014 World Series. They would appear to have a shot at full seasons from five pretty key players: Angel Pagan, Matt Cain, Brandon Belt, Joe Panik and Santiago Casilla. They have lost Pablo Sandoval and Mike Morse. They'll probably lose Ryan Vogelsong. If they can stay healthy, it appears to me they have gained more than they have lost (from a World Championship team). Here's something which I haven't verified, but which I read: Over the past three seasons, Jake Peavy has a higher percentage of quality starts than Jon Lester. Obviously Lester has had a better quality of "quality" starts, but a quality start keeps a team in most games. Apparently Peavy has done that more than Lester. In other words, the guy the Giants re-signed today isn't chopped liver. Nor is Sergio Romo. To say the Giants haven't signed anyone of worth is just plain foolish. Hey, I'd like them to do more too. And they still will. I'd like them to do more than they WILL do. But with their budget, I suspect they'll do reasonably well. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2623/failure?page=2#ixzz3MO1U6gdc
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Failure
Dec 19, 2014 18:00:11 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2014 18:00:11 GMT -5
Randy -- Both Hudson and Peavey proved this year that they are but shadows of their former selves. The Giants by signing Peavey have pretty much raised the white flag in surrender. Rog -- Neither Hudson nor Peavy were what they once were. But both are capable major league starters. The only guy who has raised the white flag in surrender is you. Just as you did in August, 2012. I think you're a glass-half-broken kind of guy. That's not good for your health. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2623/failure?page=2#ixzz3MO59Ctgz
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Failure
Dec 19, 2014 18:19:24 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2014 18:19:24 GMT -5
Randy -- FORMERLY both were worth a lot. What they will provide to the 2015 and 2016 teams is likely quite minimal at best. Rog -- Analytic forecasts tend to be quite conservative, since there is always a chance a player will fall apart for various reasons. But the forecasts of a 2.95 ERA for Sergio and 3.67 for Jake are actually pretty good. The forecasts for the top-paid starter and closer, Jon Lester and David Robertson, are 3.28 and 2.82 respectively. In other words, for about half the price and term of the other two, the Giants signed two players who may turn out to be fairly close to the highest-paid guys. If one were looking objectively, he would likely say the Giants got some good value. You've never answered whom you would have signed with the $30 million or so available, Randy. Why not? By the way, the plan I wrote down recently was Jason Hammel, Melky Cabrera and a trade for a good third baseman. If the third baseman available wouldn't have cost much, I would have inserted Ervin Santana or Peavy for Hammel. What the Giants will do may be better than my plan; it may not. But at least I had a realistic plan -- even if it is entirely different from what the Giants are going to do, except for possibly trading for a third baseman. Both the Giants' plan and my plan are better than yours, Randy. Not that you couldn't do better than BOTH the Giants and I, but that you haven't provided a realistic plan. It's really easy to beat no plan at all. I'm sorry to be so difficult, Randy. Really I am. But you're so negative, and when you do provide any kind of plan, it's fully unrealistic. Hey, give them the budget it likely would have taken to sign Lester and re-sign Pablo, and I think it would have been a pretty easy off-season for the Giants. The difference in our proposals is that you have a dream, while I have a plan. I too can dream; but planning gets a lot more done. Come up with a realistic plan, and let's see how it compares with what the Giants actually do. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2623/failure?page=2#ixzz3MO6Ai4L1
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Failure
Dec 19, 2014 18:37:32 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Dec 19, 2014 18:37:32 GMT -5
Rog - The Giants would appear to have better starting pitching and relief pitching than the team that won the 2014 World Series.
Dood - the SP is pretty close, I would say...IF and ONLY IF both Hudson can look more like the first half guy than the second half/postseason guy and Peavy resembles the guy in the last 2 months more than the first 4 months and postseason guy. If both those guys slip off--very likely for pitchers their age--then the outlook goes from bleak to even worse than bleak. The current bullpen is probably worse than the 2014 Opening day pen.
They would appear to have a shot at full seasons from five pretty key players: Angel Pagan, Matt Cain, Brandon Belt, Joe Panik and Santiago Casilla.
Dood - I wouldn't count on a full season from Pagan or Belt. Even with that, the lineup has little to no shot at being as good as the 2014 lineup.
They have lost Pablo Sandoval and Mike Morse. They'll probably lose Ryan Vogelsong. If they can stay healthy, it appears to me they have gained more than they have lost (from a World Championship team).
Dood - a big if, and a questionable conclusion notwithstanding
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 21, 2014 8:35:43 GMT -5
All this handwringing over Peavy, Cain and Hudson is over exaggeration. Their couple of poor post season outings doesn't diminish the fine job they did for the Giants. And let's not forget in the post season you're facing the best teams in baseball, but in the regular season they'll be more than enough against the Mets, Cubs, Braves etc. of the NL. And then we'll get to October and Bumgarner will pitch every day again. No worries. Can't wait for the baseball season to start and if you were a fan of the Knicks and Jets, wouldn't you?
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Failure
Dec 21, 2014 12:54:01 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Dec 21, 2014 12:54:01 GMT -5
I'm not handwringing over Cain, although it might take him a little longer to get in shape. Hudson is old...there's no denying it. He gets hurt every year now and he has nothing left to accomplish now that he has his ring. He's playing out his contract. Peavy got rocked the first 4 months last year. That's a fact you can't ignore. It wasnt JUST postseason although that is important too. If you're counting on Bumgarner carrying the rotation again, then you'll wear him out before he's 26. The Niners suck this year but fortunately the Warriors are the best team in the NBA now...but I am definitely looking forward to April.
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Failure
Dec 21, 2014 21:34:01 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Dec 21, 2014 21:34:01 GMT -5
Dood - I wouldn't count on a full season from Pagan or Belt. Even with that, the lineup has little to no shot at being as good as the 2014 lineup. Rog -- That just isn't true. No question Sandoval is better than McGehee (although Casey may be the better of the two when it comes to driving home runners), but the left fielder the Giants acquire will almost certainly be better than Ishikawa and Perez. A healthy Pagan will be better than Blanco, and a healthy Belt will be better than an unhealthy one. The Giants will have Joe Panik for the full season. They'll have Susac for the whole year. That sounds to me as if unless players have down seasons or there are a lot of injuries, the lineup should be better. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2623/failure?page=2#ixzz3MaVj3K00
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