sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Failure
Dec 16, 2014 0:40:42 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Dec 16, 2014 0:40:42 GMT -5
This offseason has highlighted major failure on the Giants part. I KNOW they still have options...I KNOW they have a track record...I know all the excuses we have heard for missing out on all the top talent in this year's offseason FA pool.
I hear everyone say things like "oh that guy didn't want to come back (or here from elsewhere)" and "we got saved from making a bad deal." But at some point the FO has to take responsibility for not showing the skill or urgency to close deals. They need to have as much of a killer instinct in that regard as a closer does on the field. Right now they aren't showing either the chops or the desire to close deals.
Things need to change and quick because it's obvious to every other team that the offseason game is passing the Giants by.
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 16, 2014 8:22:14 GMT -5
All they need to do right now is land Shields or Scherzer and the offseason goes from failure to success really quickly. If they sign neither, I'm right there with you though.
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Failure
Dec 16, 2014 11:02:37 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Dec 16, 2014 11:02:37 GMT -5
I think even if the Giants miss out on Shields and Scherzer, they can still salvage the off-season. But the options, except for the trade market, are drying up quickly.
I don't think the Giants will risk their off-season solely on Scherzer, and I expect the Shields situation to make itself clear quite soon. He may be trying very hard to drag out a sixth year, which unless it is at a very reasonable price, would be tough to take. By reasonable price, I mean not much more than $10 million.
Perhaps he will wind up with a vesting option for his sixth year. If it's something like 200 innings in his fifth season, I wouldn't see that as being much of a problem. Even 500 innings over his last three seasons. That would mean he was reasonably healthy and/or effective.
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Failure
Dec 16, 2014 11:10:17 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Dec 16, 2014 11:10:17 GMT -5
I'm with Randy and Mark on this one.
I don't know about Upton's character, but I DO know, at least from what I've read, that he's prone to brooding, taking his bad at bats into the field, and that he's also prone to long... ridiculously long slumps.
He's also a huge offensive force when he's hot, and he's at least average on defense.
But all that said, pitching, pitching, pitching.
We don't sign Shields, and we're staring 3rd place squarely in the face.
As to Scherzer; you can keep him I do NOT want ANYONE represented by Boros the carpetbagger.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Failure
Dec 16, 2014 13:59:40 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Dec 16, 2014 13:59:40 GMT -5
I personally would, based on performance, prefer Scherzer to Shields. And from what I hear, the Yankees and Tigers have dropped out of the running for Max. That, if true, should drop the price significantly. That said, I don't think signing Shields or Scherzer takes the offseason right to the success level. The trade they are working on had better produce something significant for the middle of the order and for the record I do NOT consider Chris Johnson to be that type of hitter. Upton could be but he hates SF so there's no guarantee we would see the best from him AND it would only be for one year...after that he's outta here like a bat out of hell!
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 16, 2014 14:30:25 GMT -5
Dood, I think you're exaggerating the "hatred" Justin Upton has for San Francisco. A tweet a few years ago that he doesn't like hitting there because the ball doesn't carry doesn't really qualify as hatred. Playing 81 games there with a sold out crowd cheering for him and winning lots of games could easily change his mind. I doubt we're getting him anyway, they're going to want top prospects that we just don't have. As for Max Scherzer, I don't believe any of the big market teams are out on him. The Yankees might say they're out, but then one of the Steinbrenners wakes up one morning and realizes his team needs an ace, and out comes the check book. Nobody in NYC believes they're out. They're just waiting for the price to drop.
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Failure
Dec 16, 2014 23:36:29 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Dec 16, 2014 23:36:29 GMT -5
I'm not sure I want the Giants to sign Shields (although I'd surely like to know one way or the other). So I agree that signing Shields won't make the off-season successful. The thing I would ask Randy though is what moves the Giants could have made with their $30 million that would have pleased him.
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 17, 2014 8:05:44 GMT -5
I think the Giants are basically in a position where they HAVE to sign Shields to salvage this offseason. After losing key players and missing out on Lester, they've pretty much exhausted their options. Yes they can sign a lesser pitcher, and/ or make a trade, but anything less than a marquee acquisition will mark this offseason as a massive failure. By the way, I saw a stat which said there were only six pitchers who have thrown more 7 inning games allowing 2,or less runs since 2006 than Matt Cain. Shields was one of them.
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Failure
Dec 17, 2014 10:54:18 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Dec 17, 2014 10:54:18 GMT -5
Again, Mark, you hit a bullseye.
We HAVE to sign Shields. Have to.
If we don't, this off season will have been more than simply an off season failure, it will be, IMHO, a DISASTER.
As I said in my post to Sabean; NO pitching, NO pennant, NO World Series.
Period.
As to Justin Upton... IF we traded for him, we'd have to give up a ton for what could amount to a one year rental.
Umm, no thanks.
boly
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Failure
Dec 17, 2014 13:30:50 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Dec 17, 2014 13:30:50 GMT -5
Mark -- I saw a stat which said there were only six pitchers who have thrown more 7 inning games allowing 2,or less runs since 2006 than Matt Cain. Shields was one of them. Rog -- Poor Matt has had such hard luck. Even with his last two seasons' seemingly being affected by injury, he's been an excellent pitcher -- and has only a 95-95 record to show for it. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2623/failure#ixzz3MBIRa4wE
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Failure
Dec 17, 2014 13:32:19 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Dec 17, 2014 13:32:19 GMT -5
Those who say of a pitcher, he's a winner, should take a close look at Matt. His record certainly doesn't show it, but Matt is clearly a winner.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Failure
Dec 17, 2014 14:02:29 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Dec 17, 2014 14:02:29 GMT -5
My point is I don't think it's wise to trade for someone who openly admits he dislikes where you play your home games. As many have pointed out, it would amount to a one year rental and his splits at AT&T are ugly.
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Failure
Dec 17, 2014 14:08:21 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Dec 17, 2014 14:08:21 GMT -5
I think Randy's points here are valid.
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Failure
Dec 18, 2014 9:58:37 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Dec 18, 2014 9:58:37 GMT -5
I totally agree. Trading for a guy who doesn't want to be here is ludicrous.
boly
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 19, 2014 9:18:26 GMT -5
The money they saved signing Peavy could open them up to an Upton deal that includes Chris Johnson. The Braves have said if you take Johnson too, Upton will cost less. Bring them in and every hole on the team is plugged, and you keep your fingers crossed you get 2013 Chris Johnson and not 2014 Chris Johnson. And again, a random tweet from Upton complaining about the way the ball carries doesn't qualify as hatred of SF. Talk about an overblown comment!
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Failure
Dec 19, 2014 12:09:52 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Dec 19, 2014 12:09:52 GMT -5
Signing/trading for Johnson and Upton gives our line up instant depth, no question.
But history has proven if you haven't got the pitchers to get the other team out consistently, you'll end up on the short end of the stick by the time the season is over.
And Bumgarner, Cain, Hudson, Peavy, and Vogy doesn't qualify as a solid, sound rotation.
To me, it would "Bumgarner and Cain, and pray for 3 days of rain."
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Failure
Dec 19, 2014 13:12:34 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Dec 19, 2014 13:12:34 GMT -5
well if the whole idea this offseason was to save money for the greedy owners, job well done. No Pablo, no Lester, no Shields, no Upton even...no anybody worth anything. As far as improving the team, FAIL!
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Failure
Dec 19, 2014 14:13:42 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Dec 19, 2014 14:13:42 GMT -5
Randy--well if the whole idea this offseason was to save money for the greedy owners, job well done. No Pablo, no Lester, no Shields, no Upton even...no anybody worth anything. As far as improving the team, FAIL!
Re---boly says--
Randy, I hate to admit it, but I agree with you; that SEEMS to be precisely what they did, and are doing.
3rd place... and that MAYBE, if Colorado doesn't make vast improvements.
If they do...we all had better learn to spell "Cellar."
boly
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Failure
Dec 19, 2014 16:17:41 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2014 16:17:41 GMT -5
Boly -- To me, it would "Bumgarner and Cain, and pray for 3 days of rain." Rog -- To me it would be "Bumgarner and Cain aren't dung, and pray for the three winners of the Cy Young. You say Tim Hudson has no Cy Young's at all? We'll just have to settle for going into the Hall." Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2623/failure#ixzz3MNeSr3CB
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Failure
Dec 19, 2014 16:17:56 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2014 16:17:56 GMT -5
Boly -- To me, it would "Bumgarner and Cain, and pray for 3 days of rain." Rog -- To me it would be "Bumgarner and Cain aren't dung, and pray for the three winners of the Cy Young. You say Tim Hudson has no Cy Young's at all? We'll just have to settle for going into the Hall." Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2623/failure#ixzz3MNeSr3CB
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Failure
Dec 19, 2014 16:18:40 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2014 16:18:40 GMT -5
Boly -- To me, it would "Bumgarner and Cain, and pray for 3 days of rain." Rog -- To me it would be "Bumgarner and Cain aren't dung, and pray for the three winners of the Cy Young. You say Tim Hudson has no Cy Young's at all? We'll just have to settle for going into the Hall." Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2623/failure#ixzz3MNeSr3CB
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Failure
Dec 19, 2014 16:22:01 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2014 16:22:01 GMT -5
Boly -- To me, it would "Bumgarner and Cain, and pray for 3 days of rain." Rog -- To me it would be "Bumgarner and Cain aren't dung, and pray for the three winners of the Cy Young. You say Tim Hudson has no Cy Young's at all? We'll just have to settle for going into the Hall." Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2623/failure#ixzz3MNeSr3CB
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Failure
Dec 19, 2014 16:22:26 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Dec 19, 2014 16:22:26 GMT -5
Both Hudson and Peavey proved this year that they are but shadows of their former selves. The Giants by signing Peavey have pretty much raised the white flag in surrender.
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Failure
Dec 19, 2014 16:22:51 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2014 16:22:51 GMT -5
Boly -- To me, it would "Bumgarner and Cain, and pray for 3 days of rain." Rog -- To me it would be "Bumgarner and Cain aren't dung, and pray for the three winners of the Cy Young. You say Tim Hudson has no Cy Young's at all? We'll just have to settle for going into the Hall." Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2623/failure#ixzz3MNeSr3CB
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Failure
Dec 19, 2014 16:26:44 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2014 16:26:44 GMT -5
Boly -- To me, it would "Bumgarner and Cain, and pray for 3 days of rain." Rog -- To me it would be "Bumgarner and Cain aren't dung, and pray for the three winners of the Cy Young. You say Tim Hudson has no Cy Young's at all? We'll just have to settle for going into the Hall." Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2623/failure#ixzz3MNeSr3CB
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Failure
Dec 19, 2014 16:32:32 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2014 16:32:32 GMT -5
Boly -- To me, it would "Bumgarner and Cain, and pray for 3 days of rain." Rog -- To me it would be "Bumgarner and Cain aren't dung, and pray for the three winners of the Cy Young. You say Tim Hudson has no Cy Young's at all? We'll just have to settle for going into the Hall." Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2623/failure#ixzz3MNeSr3CB
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Failure
Dec 19, 2014 16:41:18 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2014 16:41:18 GMT -5
Boly -- To me, it would "Bumgarner and Cain, and pray for 3 days of rain." Rog -- To me it would be "Bumgarner and Cain aren't dung, and pray for the three winners of the Cy Young. You say Tim Hudson has no Cy Young's at all? We'll just have to settle for going into the Hall." Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2623/failure#ixzz3MNeSr3CB
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Failure
Dec 19, 2014 16:42:18 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Dec 19, 2014 16:42:18 GMT -5
As Randy said, Peavy and Hudson are mere shadows of what they once were. They will have their moments, to be sure, but expect them to wear down considerably as the season goes on.
Besides that, we're all praying Cain is back to normal, which, though I agree is likely, isn't etched in stone.
And that leaves Madison, 2 old guys, and Mr. nor longer what I once was, Timmy.
To be sure, there are some positives; Hudson and Peavy are OUTSTANDING clubhouse guys, and vicious competitors! No question!
But though I love those attributes, time erodes talent, and that's something we have to remember.
boly
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Failure
Dec 19, 2014 16:45:35 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2014 16:45:35 GMT -5
Boly -- To me, it would "Bumgarner and Cain, and pray for 3 days of rain." Rog -- To me it would be "Bumgarner and Cain aren't dung, and pray for the three winners of the Cy Young. You say Tim Hudson has no Cy Young's at all? We'll just have to settle for going into the Hall." Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2623/failure#ixzz3MNeSr3CB
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Failure
Dec 19, 2014 17:19:22 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2014 17:19:22 GMT -5
Boly -- To me, it would "Bumgarner and Cain, and pray for 3 days of rain." Rog -- To me it would be "Bumgarner and Cain aren't dung, and pray for the three winners of the Cy Young. You say Tim Hudson has no Cy Young's at all? We'll just have to settle for going into the Hall." Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2623/failure#ixzz3MNeSr3CB
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