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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 12, 2014 15:02:52 GMT -5
Brian: Since you seem to be sitting on your proverbial hands, I just wanted to remind you of one thing you seem to either be forgetting, or ignoring;
NO Pitching, NO Pennant, and certainly NO world series.
Just wanted to see if you were listening.
A very unhappy,
old, currently grumpy,
boly
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 12, 2014 15:09:29 GMT -5
I'm wondering if it's going to be a trade or FA signing, but you know there's money to spend, Boly. I think they want Shields to make a quick decision, and since it's apparent that he won't, I think they'll sign Peavy. And I'm guessing Jed Lowrie or Astrubal Cabrera for third with a platoon partner for Blanco in LF. Certainly not the glamorous off season we were hoping for, and I hope I'm wrong.
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 12, 2014 15:56:23 GMT -5
I, too, sure hope you're wrong, Mark.
That's not a plan, that's "settling."
A world series winner should be able to do better.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member 
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 12, 2014 16:38:00 GMT -5
I sure as hell wouldn't be happy about any of those mediocre turds. The 3rd baseman would be just a small step up from Arias or Duffy. SP and LF would be no improvement at all, especially after Pagan gets hurt again.
I'm with Boly...very grumpy. This Christmas should have been a lot merrier after a parade. Instead I'll be making Eeyore look like the eternal optimist.
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 12, 2014 21:03:13 GMT -5
I forgot that the Red Sox actually acquired three starters at the meetings, not two. Miley, Masterson and Porcello. They're supposedly still interested in Shields, but he's certainly not needed by them as badly as the Giants need him. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised here.
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Post by Rog on Dec 13, 2014 7:02:07 GMT -5
Boly -- Brian: Since you seem to be sitting on your proverbial hands, I just wanted to remind you of one thing you seem to either be forgetting, or ignoring; NO Pitching, NO Pennant, and certainly NO world series. Rog -- You're probably right here, Boly. But even without signing anyone, and they will sign at least one pitcher and possibly two, isn't the Giants' pitching pretty close to last season? The casts are similar, with Cain replacing Peavy and Petit replacing Vogelsong in the rotation. That will almost certainly change, as it seems likely that Shields, Peavy or Vogelsong will be signed. But even without the almost-certain addition, aren't Cain and Petit likely to be the equal of Peavy and Vogelsong? Meanwhile, Lincecum is now completing his third week of training with his dad. There is hope that he will improve, and it might possibly be considerable improvement. Don't forget that he was pretty good the first half of the season. Hudson will likely be healthier than he finished last season. Doesn't this year's rotation have every possibility of being the equal to last season's -- even without signing anyone else? The bullpen doesn't have Romo at present, and it might not have Petit. But it's got some quality youngsters knocking at the door, and at least one will break it down. As it stands now, the bullpen isn't as good as last year's, but it could be close. So without signing even one starter or reliever, the pitching is darn close to the pitching that won this year's World Series. And if they don't sign Shields -- who would be an impressive upgrade to the staff -- they will likely sign one or two among Peavy, Romo and Vogelsong. In other words, it is almost impossible for the Giants not to enter the 2015 season with a pitching staff that is as fearsome as last year's. And last year's staff, for all its holes, won the World Series. Pitching or not, you're most likely right about no pennant and no World Series, but would be primarily because Sandoval and Morse won't have been replaced properly -- not that the pitching fell apart. And if the Giants don't sign a pitcher or two -- almost an impossibility -- they will fortify left field and the hot corner. In reality, it's easier for the Giants to at least equal last year's pitching than it is to fill both everyday positions. Pitching isn't likely to be the problem. If the Giants don't sign Shields, don't you think it's likely they might re-sign Peavy and Romo? The money would be about the same, and the commitment would overall be much shorter. In fact, perhaps Peavy and Romo are a better solution than Shields alone. I think the odds of the Giants signing at least one of Shields, Peavy and Romo is pretty high. And if they do, it will be hard to argue that they won't enter 2015 with a staff as good as they finished 2014 with. And 2014 had a pretty good finish. That said, the bullpen could be vulnerable. Most of its members are past their primes age-wise, so a decline is certainly possible. But so is an important contribution from the young guy or likely guys plural who will join the bullpen. And what do you bet that if the Giants don't sign Shields, Romo is back? It is almost certain that either the rotation or the bullpen will have pieces more formidable as last season. And it is possible both will. The return of Cain itself should improve the rotation. Doesn't it seem likely that a pitcher the caliber of Peavy or better will also be added. With the return of Cain and even Vogelsong, the rotation would be made up of the same pieces as last season, except that Cain/Peavy would have been replaced by Cain. I like that trade off. Throw in Shields or even Peavy, and the rotation will look BETTER than last season. Simply bring back Romo, and the bullpen will have about the same pieces as last season. And don't you think that Gutierrez could be replaced pretty well by one or two of the youngsters? Injuries would hurt, but with Romo back, the bullpen would have pretty good depth. The Giants will almost certainly replenish their pitching staff. It's doing so along with fortifying third base and left field that is the challenge. IMO the equation you presented is PITCHING, no PENNANT and no WORLD SERIES. But almost no team enters a season more likely than not to win the pennant and make the World Series. In the National League, I think the Nationals come closest, but they've had a very hard time navigating the postseason. It's hard to tell the effect of the Dodgers' many moves or whether they're done or not, but they might be putting in place a tough contender, as well. The Giants have a lot of holes to fill, but they're three-time World Champions for a reason. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2619/reminder-sabean#ixzz3LmCTWvgB |
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Post by Rog on Dec 13, 2014 7:06:08 GMT -5
Randy -- I'm with Boly...very grumpy. This Christmas should have been a lot merrier after a parade. Instead I'll be making Eeyore look like the eternal optimist. Rog -- "How can you say this and that when this and that hasn't happened yet?" Perhaps you two would benefit from not being Scrooges. The Giants almost CAN'T help but stumble into a rotation better than last season's. A rotation that won the World Series. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2619/reminder-sabean?page=1#ixzz3LmL1dvNO |
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 13, 2014 7:21:26 GMT -5
Romo is supposedly close to signing with someone, but they don't know who yet. He was supposedly talking to the Giants, Yankees, Red Sox and yes, Dood's dreaded Dodgers.
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Post by Rog on Dec 13, 2014 7:26:32 GMT -5
Randy -- I sure as hell wouldn't be happy about any of those mediocre turds. The 3rd baseman would be just a small step up from Arias or Duffy. SP and LF would be no improvement at all, especially after Pagan gets hurt again. Rog -- You make a good point here, Randy, but would you be at least tolerant of the situation if the Giants acquired Asdrubal Cabrera and say Denorfia along with Shields or with Peavy and Romo? Surely they have the salary budget to do that much. Nearly half of the top 30 free agents are still out there, led by Scherzer and Shields and including both Peavy and Romo. Let's forget about Shields for the moment and think about a rotation of Bumgarner, Cain, Peavy, Hudson and Lincecum. Isn't that a likely upgrade from last season? How about a bullpen of Casilla, Romo, Affeldt, Lopez, Machi, Petit and one of the young, hard-throwing studs? What that would mean is the young stud would be replacing Gutierrez. Think that would be a good trade off? We can't reasonably expect the Giants to replace with their $30 million budget five free agents who are among the top 50 and who are projected by Jon Heyman to earn twice that much per season. But with Sandoval and Tomas down the drain, I think we can expect the Giants to improve their pitching pieces, making it more palatable to have the type of reinforcements mentioned by Mark to man the hot corner and left field. The Giants team that won the World Series this year was flawed, just as the two winners before it had been. The 2015 team will have flaws too, but that doesn't mean it can't win the World Series. Let's take last year's World Series roster and compare it to the 2015 Giants if they sign the two "turds" plus Peavy and Romo. Rotation -- Better Bullpen -- Equal Catcher -- Equal First base -- Slightly improved with good health from Belt Second base -- Equal Shortstop -- Equal Third base -- A big step down Left field -- Better Center field -- Better Right Field -- Equal What we wind up with is three betters, a slightly better, and one big step down. Overall, that adds up to about equal to last year, doesn't it? The problem may be declining seasons more so than the pieces not adding up with last year's team that entered the World Series. And of course, Madison Bumgarner can't pitch all the time. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2619/reminder-sabean?page=1#ixzz3LmM6t6m3 |
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Post by Rog on Dec 13, 2014 7:28:59 GMT -5
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 13, 2014 11:05:39 GMT -5
Boly -- Brian: Since you seem to be sitting on your proverbial hands, I just wanted to remind you of one thing you seem to either be forgetting, or ignoring;
NO Pitching, NO Pennant, and certainly NO world series.
Rog -- You're probably right here, Boly. But even without signing anyone, and they will sign at least one pitcher and possibly two, isn't the Giants' pitching pretty close to last season?
*****boly says**** YOu're right, Rog it will.
But remember what I've been saying for weeks now: Those same starters won't be enough to even get them to the playoffs, much less have a shot at the World Series.
You know me, I've LONG been an advocate of, and in this order, PITCHING, Defense, Speed.
We have poor starting pitching, above average defense, and very little speed.
It's not like we're missing just one piece, as we were when we started last year, Second Base.
IF nothing, or signing bargain basement starters, gets done between now and when the season starts, we won't have one hole to fill, we'll have a minimum of 4. A MINIMUM of 4!
1 Thirdbaseman
2 starting pitchers (I'm NOT ready to commit to Cain being even close to what he was until I see him)
1 Left Fielder.
And ya'all can tout Blanco all you want, but he's a 4th guy, nothing more.
We all know Sabean; he plays everything close to the vest, as the saying goes. So none of us will be surprised if he does something big.
But in the mean time, in the MEAN TIME, the outlook for 2015 looks more than dim, it looks dour, cold, damp and hopeless for another world series.
Thus, Randy and I are grumpy, and will be until managment starts making some smart, worthwhile moves.
And I'm on record saying that IF we fail to get Shields, we're up a creek not only without a paddle, but with a leaky, sinking boat.
You heard it here first.
boly
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Post by Rog on Dec 13, 2014 13:51:55 GMT -5
Boly -- But remember what I've been saying for weeks now: Those same starters won't be enough to even get them to the playoffs, much less have a shot at the World Series. Rog -- You could easily be right here. But the Giants are going to improve their present team SOMEWHERE. I think we both agree that as presently constituted the Giants are likely about a .500 team. But that's where the $30 million to spend comes in. Boly -- You know me, I've LONG been an advocate of, and in this order, PITCHING, Defense, Speed. We have poor starting pitching, above average defense, and very little speed. Rog -- The Giants' starting pitching at present does look to be below average, but their bullpen still looks above-average. Their speed is lousy, but without Morse, the defense is pretty darn good. Overall, I think the Giants meet your three criteria pretty well. The only category they seem deficient in is speed, and that's probably the least important of the three. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2619/reminder-sabean#ixzz3Lnz35zol |
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Post by Rog on Dec 13, 2014 13:55:11 GMT -5
Speaking of defense, Posey, Belt, Panik, Crawford, Blanco, Pagan, Pence and either Arias or Duffy looks to me to be about as good as there is on any team. We might be disappointed in the hitting, but defensively I think that's an excellent eightsome.
With good health and good pickups with the $30 million available, the Giants should still be a good team if they don't suffer a drop off.
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 13, 2014 20:09:13 GMT -5
Boly, funny that you mentioned how Sabean likes to play things close to the vest, because it was very uncharacteristic for them to be so openly after Lester the way they were at the meetings. And this was after they made such a public effort to retain Sandoval. Bobby Evans was all over KNBR and the MLB network. Now it seems like they've gone back to normal, and we're not hearing anything. I think when the signings come, they'll come out of nowhere. You won't hear anything else until it's done.
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 13, 2014 22:24:50 GMT -5
Mark--I think when the signings come, they'll come out of nowhere. You won't hear anything else until it's done. ---boly says--- I totally agree, Mark! Back to the status quo with managment. In retrospect,, I think all of that noise by our front office was mostly just rhetoric. Not that they didn't want to get a deal done... but IMHO, they had numbers they wouldn't budge from, and again, IMHO, those numbers were either (1) too low, or (2) unrealistic. Now we wait and see. My money is that they'll sign Jimmy Davenport to play 3B (Hey! He STILL holds the record for the most consecutive errorless games by a thirdbaseman!) Aubrey Huff to play LF, and in the # 2 starter slot, I expect to see Juan Marichal, or Jim Barr. I hear there's an outside chance we might wind up Gaylord Perry, too. Hey. They fit the budget.  boly |
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 14, 2014 9:28:41 GMT -5
One less option for the Giants. Melky Cabrera signed with the White Sox last night. They're one team really going for it, which probably means they'll be the team that everybody picks this year and then is stunned when they fall on their faces.
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Post by Rog on Dec 14, 2014 11:33:35 GMT -5
Boly -- I'm NOT ready to commit to Cain being even close to what he was until I see him Rog -- If he isn't, regardless of the moves the Giants make wouldn't you agree their chances of repeating as World Champions aren't much better than their shot at acquiring both Pablo Sandoval and John Lester? If Cain can't, neither will the Giants. Unless, of course, Tim Lincecum becomes comeback player of the year. And somehow I don't think you believe that will happen. (If we want to call Sunday the first day of the week, week #4 of training with his dad begins today.) Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2619/reminder-sabean#ixzz3LtGowCPy |
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 14, 2014 13:52:15 GMT -5
Something's gotta be wrong with me, because whenever Tim takes the mound I STILL believe this is the day he turns it all around and I get excited. His stuff is certainly still good enough to be successful. He's looking at a walk year and another bad year and he'll be lucky to get 3 million per year in 2016. There should be a lot of motivation on his part.
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 14, 2014 16:20:44 GMT -5
Roger--- If he isn't, regardless of the moves the Giants make wouldn't you agree their chances of repeating as World Champions aren't much better than their shot at acquiring both Pablo Sandoval and John Lester? If Cain can't, neither will the Giants.
---boly says: I agree. If Cain can't.
But WITH Shields and Bumgarner, at least we have 2 top flight starters.
Without Shields, in the Cain doesn't do well scenario, we have 1. I'd rather have 2 and my fingers crossed for the third, than 1, and my fingers crossed for the 2nd.
boly
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 14, 2014 16:22:50 GMT -5
Mark --Something's gotta be wrong with me, because whenever Tim takes the mound I STILL believe this is the day he turns it all around and I get excited. His stuff is certainly still good enough to be successful. He's looking at a walk year and another bad year and he'll be lucky to get 3 million per year in 2016. There should be a lot of motivation on his part. ---boly says--- I agree, Mark there is something wrong with you; your eyes. Seriously, Tim will have his moments when he looks like his old self. But based upon his last 3 years of same ol same ol... I think I'm on resonably safe ground to predict something a 10-10 season, with an ERA in the 4.25 area. And honestly, IMHO, that's a stretch. boly |
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 14, 2014 17:43:36 GMT -5
I agree with Rx in that Tim, at 30, still fills me with lots of hope that he can turn it around. No doubt Boly has reason to be skeptical, but it kind of surprises me that Boly has seemingly completely given up on Tim when he certainly has witnessed a LOT of other pitchers who were able to recapture good form with even less to work with than Lincecum has.
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Post by donk33 on Dec 14, 2014 18:20:07 GMT -5
Mark --Something's gotta be wrong with me, because whenever Tim takes the mound I STILL believe this is the day he turns it all around and I get excited. His stuff is certainly still good enough to be successful. He's looking at a walk year and another bad year and he'll be lucky to get 3 million per year in 2016. There should be a lot of motivation on his part. ---boly says--- I agree, Mark there is something wrong with you; your eyes. Seriously, Tim will have his moments when he looks like his old self. But based upon his last 3 years of same ol same ol... I think I'm on resonably safe ground to predict something a 10-10 season, with an ERA in the 4.25 area. And honestly, IMHO, that's a stretch. boly dk..they should have brought Bengie back as the bull pen coach....Tim hasn't been the same since Bengie left.... |
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 15, 2014 9:07:36 GMT -5
If Bengie brings back Timmy's 99 mph heat, I'm all for it! Somehow I doubt he has it though. By the way, I'm wondering, Rog, if you think Chris Lincecum's unconventional ways of teaching his son might have been a factor in him losing his high velocity at such an early age. There has to be a reason that his methods were scoffed at by the experts.
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 15, 2014 12:34:24 GMT -5
Mark--By the way, I'm wondering, Rog, if you think Chris Lincecum's unconventional ways of teaching his son might have been a factor in him losing his high velocity at such an early age. There has to be a reason that his methods were scoffed at by the experts.
---boly says--- You didn't ask me, Mark, but if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to respond.
My answer would be, a strong, resounding, shouting at the top of my lungs, YES!
But it's a quantified 'yes.'
Dad's drop, turn, and drive I agree with.
What I think has hurt him, put incredibly undue stress on his arm, and IMHO, HAS reduced his velocity, is, and I'm beating that dead horse again, the length of his stride.
When a pitcher strides that long, the arm takes the brunt of the stress. In particular, and, I believe, in this order: 1-Elbow, 2 Shoulder
boly
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 15, 2014 12:37:13 GMT -5
Randy--I agree with Rx in that Tim, at 30, still fills me with lots of hope that he can turn it around. No doubt Boly has reason to be skeptical, but it kind of surprises me that Boly has seemingly completely given up on Tim when he certainly has witnessed a LOT of other pitchers who were able to recapture good form with even less to work with than Lincecum has.
---boly says--
I've given up on Tim for 2 reasons, Randy.
1-mechanics
2-His 3 back-to-back subpar seasons.
And really, it should be 3 1/2 seasons, because what we all consider his "last stellar season," was fraught with problems that he 'corrected,' and ended well.
But here's my question, Randy. Name other pitchers who've BEEN HEALTHY, had 3 consecutive poor seasons, and the rebounded, as you suggest.
Honestly, I can't think of even one.
boly
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 15, 2014 17:44:37 GMT -5
I also always wondered about that not icing the arm after games. I mean all pitchers do that. That being said, he's never hurt the arm either.
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Post by Rog on Dec 15, 2014 22:48:09 GMT -5
Mark -- I also always wondered about that not icing the arm after games. I mean all pitchers do that. That being said, he's never hurt the arm either. Rog -- That is the one thing that I have worried about all along, and I wonder if it hasn't allowed his velocity loss to quicken. As for Tim's long stride, it is designed to take stress OFF the arm with the core and legs generating force. Perhaps though it is the plant though that creates a fulcrum to use the body's momentum. I just don't know the physics and bio mechanics involved. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2619/reminder-sabean#ixzz3M1qcZWwm |
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 16, 2014 11:04:07 GMT -5
Rog -- That is the one thing that I have worried about all along, and I wonder if it hasn't allowed his velocity loss to quicken.
As for Tim's long stride, it is designed to take stress OFF the arm with the core and legs generating force. Perhaps though it is the plant though that creates a fulcrum to use the body's momentum. I just don't know the physics and bio mechanics involved.
---boly says---
rog, the exact opposite is true. Believe me. I pitched and coached long enough to know.
The long stride means the arm, elbow and shoulder have to over extend to get "on top" of the ball at the point of release.
In addition, it causes the arm to "jerk" as it attempts to 'finish' the pitch.
If that's what his dad taught, he's not just wrong, he's nuts.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 16, 2014 14:18:54 GMT -5
Not disagreeing with you Boly but some guys are just freaks and that word has been used to describe Tim for a long time. He has never had a significant injury and according to your analysis, this should have happened already before now. My bigger issue is whether the delivery is hampering his control. I long have advocated Tim keeping in contact with his dad to fix his control issues, because even with the drop in velocity, he's got the stuff and mental toughness to be a top level pitcher at this level. Chris Lincecum is the designer of the delivery and to some degree you have to concur that it has been very successful...so he definitely would be the one that could put it back "in whack" to use a Kuiperism.
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 17, 2014 9:54:26 GMT -5
I understand, Randy, and notice I didn't say anything about Tim's delivery needing to be 'normal.'
Like you, it's a control issue that I contend with.
That Tim was successful is not the issue. Lore knows, he's had lots of success.
My contention is that because of the unorthodox 'style' Tim employs his 'time at the top of his game' has been shortened.
Get a baseball, and warm up. Then throw with a long stride to a friend. I mean, an abnormally long stride.
Now do it with a shortened stride and you will 'feel' the difference in your elbow and shoulder.
boly
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