very sad day in Giants history

[sfgdood]

With Pablo officially gone now to Boston, I can say this is a very sad day. I'm disappointed with the Giants, not for passing on the price set by the Red Sox, but for not negotiating with Pablo in the Spring when there was no competition. But I'm not angry with either side. Just very sad. Sad because Pablo, along with Matt Cain was one of the first two prospects that came up and helped bring us out of the ruins of the post-Bonds era and lifted us to the heights we now enjoy today. God only knows what the future will bring. Maybe the good times will keep rolling. Maybe the fall from grace will be ugly and lengthy. Sad because I watched this guy in the California League and loved his play from the first. When he burst onto the scene in the big leagues with his talent and exuberance it was just a pleasure to behold. His contributions have been so important to this team's success that it is already difficult thinking of someone else out there at the hot corner of AT&T Park. It'll be weird seeing him in that Sox uniform. Weird seeing red and blue panda hats at Fenway.

Whatever happens from here is unknown. I'm not less confident in the Giants' front office to build a good team. Already there is talk of going after Lester now. That should make Boly happy at least. But to me it just feels very different already. I don't know if it's good or bad, it's just very different.

Different and sad.

[Islandboagie]

I agree with most of what you say here, Randy. Although I think the Giants made a greater effort to keep Pablo than you recognize. 5 years 95 million was a strong offer.

I agree, it's sad. We lost a crucial part of our post-season success. But it gets worse...losing Pablo increases the chance that Vogelsong and Morse are also gone.

But we need to move forward.

I'm cautious about Yasmani Tomas being the type of player we move forward with.

I'd go forward with pitching speed and defense.

[Islandboagie]

Wait a minute...I just read an article that claims that Sandoval's agent says the deal isn't official yet?

[sfgdood]

yeah I heard Bobby Evans say that too...but Jon Heyman and Tim Kirtzshen (sp) aren't prone to spreading unconfirmed rumors. It could just be a formality.

[Rog]

Boagie -- I'd go forward with pitching speed and defense.

Rog -- The Giants are said to be among the teams in on Jon Lester, who is considered the top pitching free agent. On a preliminary basis, I'm leaning more toward James Shields, but I haven't really researched it, since I didn't expect the Giants to be on either.

Naturally not re-signing Pablo will increase the chances of signing Yasmany Tomas, although I have stated with you that I am highly concerned with the risk there. I'm usually concerned about the risk on high-priced pitchers too. I may be leaning toward doing with second-tier prospects in each of the three positions, rather than going on the cheap in any of the three. I'm higher on Ryan Vogelsong that most though, and thought Mike Morse was a good hitter and very good chemistry guy.

I'm excited about the 19-year-old Cuban Moncada, but that would be kind of like red-shirting a player, which might not make sense on a win-now team. I'd have to be talked out of that one, although I haven't seen a specific scouting report and might be scared off if I saw one.

At this precise moment, I'd look his way and try to fill the other three spots as best I could.

The bottom line is that I would need to do a lot more research on the available options in order to formulate my own plan. I am usually able to make a decision on how I feel about free agent signings when they happen, although even there I sometimes have an initial opinion and then change it with more research.

I'm a guy who is leery of long-term deals for free agents, but I also am prudent enough to know that stars are usually a big part of a team's success. The issue with almost every team is that with the scarcity of good free agents, teams just don't have enough money to get all that they need.

At least, one beauty of the free agent market is that a team can pick up a pretty good player without having to give up anyone on its major league roster or even any prospects already in the organization.

If Pablo goes, I will miss him. I won't be mad at him, and I'll even hope that not signing him becomes a blessing in disguise, which I think has a decent probability. I feel bad about feeling this way, but I wouldn't have offered even as much for him as the Giants did.

On the other hand, I would have tried harder to work out a compromise deal last spring.

I think I understand the positions of both the Giants and Pablo. I think this is more likely to work out for the Giants than for Pablo, but I wish him only the best. If you aren't vengeful, how can you hold a grudge against Pablo? I think he would be one of the most fun Giants to know. He seems like the kind of guy you'd like to have for a friend.

As I have believed all along, it isn't whether the Giants re-sign Pablo or not, but how good an overall plan they can execute. That option is still very much available if the Giants have put it together and are able to strike quickly in some cases and show patient in others.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2593/sad-day-giants-history#ixzz3K1XWX89u

[sfgdood]

I'm a little surprised at how many posters here want Morse back when they were deathly afraid of playing him in the playoffs and instead wanted the infielder Ishikawa playing LF

[Rog]

Randy -- I'm a little surprised at how many posters here want Morse back when they were deathly afraid of playing him in the playoffs and instead wanted the infielder Ishikawa playing LF

Rog -- I myself would have preferred Mike, but the Giants said they were concerned with both his hitting and especially his fielding after his long layoff. It worked out well just the way they did it, but unless they knew something I didn't, I would have gone with Mike.

I think whether Mike is back or not will be determined at least in part by how much money is left over after the Giants fill their other two needs. They simply have so many options now.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2593/sad-day-giants-history#ixzz3K2Mw5oPL

[Rog]

The thing of it is that none of the Giants' free agents (including Pablo) were my first choice. I should explain that I liked Pablo more than any other third baseman, but wouldn't have signed him at the required dollars.

I think that whether any of the four remaining free agents returns depends on how much money the Giants spend elsewhere.

I would think it would be quite tough to bring back Romo, but perhaps they would do so if they had a decent amount left over to pay him likely less than what he could get elsewhere. Morse nor Peavy nor Vogelsong is my favorite player for his position, but at the right price, I would be happy to have any of them back.

I'm guessing the Giants are moving right now on one or more of the top 10 names, a group of which Pablo was clearly a member (although surprisingly the MLB Network had him only at #10). If the price is too high for any of those guys, I would think the Giants would drop down a notch and attempt to put average or above average players in each of the three spots. I'm not quite sure how they would do so, but they might try to pull off some trades.

With Hanley Ramirez said to be ticketed for left field, the Red Sox are loaded with outfielders. Switch hitting Daniel Nava might be a possibility, although the Giants don't have a lot to trade, and the Red Sox will likely be looking to make a BIG trade with their outfielders and prospects. Perhaps the Giants could offer a prospect or two that the Red Sox might be able to better shop than Nava.

Nava is in his first year of arbitration eligibility, but he shouldn't be overly expensive. Nava has been much better against right-handers though, so he probably isn't a good candidate. He's also a corner outfielder. A guy like Cody Ross could make a nice platoon partner for Nava, but Cody is too expensive for simply the short side of a platoon.

In general, right-handed hitting outfielders for platoon purposes don't seem to be in great supply, which slightly lessens the value of Gregor Blanco.

I know the Headley idea isn't popular here, and Chase himself isn't going to be cheap (probably around 4/$50), but one way of approaching the situation would be to sign him to play third and hit in the bottom part of the middle of the order, sign a top starter or close to it and then try to pick up a platoon partner for Blanco and an additional outfielder who could be helpful.

Maybe even a first baseman who could free up Brandon Belt for left field in the event of injury. Travis Ishikawa could be that guy (especially since he himself can play a little left field), but it would be nice to have someone better.

If the Giants could acquire a top starter, Headley (or even a lesser third baseman) and a platoon partner for Blanco, they might not be too bad off. Heck, I could even live with their going on the cheap for all three needs if they could spend the money necessary to sign Moncada.

A cheap alternative for third base could be a lefty-hitting third baseman to platoon with Matt Duffy, although I personally think Matt could use at least a partial season in AAA. Ryan Vogelsong is a cheap pitching alternative, and Jake Peavy would be an alternative who wouldn't require them to break the bank.

Mike Morse could still be viable in left field, particularly with being complementary with Blanco.

Third base appears to be the toughest slot to fill. Not a lot of candidates, but I would think the Giants are carefully perusing each and every one of them right now. This seems a long shot, but the Nationals have two very fine third basemen.

I wish the Giants had more to trade, although what they do have might come in more handy at the trading deadline, especially if some of the good, young pitching prospects can get back on track.

Who's got some specific ideas here? Unlike where the Giants likely are, I'm not prepared for that one. I'll bet some of the rest of you have a better idea than I.

[klaiggeb]

Lester would make me very happy, no question, Randy.

And you're right; it feels different, and sad, at the same time.


But Pablo lied. He lied to all of us.

Kent was just a greedy sob, but we knew that from day one.


Not signing the greedy, lying hypocrite now allows us to spend the money where we need to; pitching.


Sabean will make this work, and as sad as this is, it will likely work out better for us than over paying fatso.

boly

[sfgdood]

I wouldn't go as far as to call him all those names, nor do I think that is strictly speaking all that fair. As I have said before, he was doing what 99% of ALL FAs do in that situation so to single him out for that is not right. He's no more greedy than any other player really. He's made just over 18 mil in his 6 years in SF and that has been a HUGE bargain. Why belittle a guy for striking while the iron is hot? One never knows when life will deal you a bum hand, or knee or hammy.

Did he lie? Regrettably it appears that way. But sometimes we say things in the throws of celebration that we regret later. Im sure if he could go back he would have measured his responses a little better. I don't think he deliberately deceived anyone and Bobby Evans has stated that Pablo's camp has been nothing but honest during negotiations.

My main point is this...we should be happy for what we got from Pablo (which was a LOT) and wish him well. He could have chosen even bigger bucks from a division rival. I would be shocked if he didn't receive a very loud and lengthy standing ovation when he returns to AT&T

[rxmeister]

Without a doubt he would receive a standing ovation. I think when the Red Sox go to Oakland, the Giants should find a way to have a ceremony and have him come over to AT&T where he can get his ring. I have a feeling during the next five years he's going to regret this decision many many times. He would certainly regret it that night as we show him how classy Giants fans can be.

[Rog]

Randy -- I'm disappointed with the Giants, not for passing on the price set by the Red Sox, but for not negotiating with Pablo in the Spring when there was no competition

Rog -- It now appears that the Giants, in going to 4/$75 in an attempt to compromise, bargained in better faith than Pablo. The 4/$75 was much closer to the Pablo's 5/$90 asking price than to the Giants' first-volley 3/$40.

More and more it is appearing that Pablo didn't want to return. It is also possible that the Giants lost out on their second highly-rated player in two years because the designated hitter rule is employed only in the American League. Jose Abreu was the other, and all he did was become baseball's top rookie.

I wonder how widespread this phenomenon is and whether it might eventually lead to the National League's adopting the DH.

As an aside, it appears the Giants are heavily involved in both Tomas and Moncada, continuing to make good on their promise to become active players in the international free agent market. I'm thinking about a strategy that would include the Giants' going with sleeper-type 2nd-tier free agents to fill their three present needs, freeing up money to sign the 19-year-old Moncada, who would essentially then be red shirted for a year or two.

It is said that Moncada might develop five above-average tools, and he can play just about anywhere aside from shortstop, possibly even center field. Imagine Moncada's taking over for Angel Pagan in two years, or perhaps replacing a two-year fill in signed this year to take over in left field or at third base.


Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2593/sad-day-giants-history#ixzz3K8rvd66t

[rxmeister]

Pablo's press conference was kind of a turn off and if I were a Red Sox fan I wouldn't have liked his comments. He acted like he signed with the Cubs or some team who had never won before. Save that "new challenge" nonsense for a team that didn't just win the World Series in 2013!
And yes, get me Moncada if not Tomas!

[Rog]

Mark -- And yes, get me Moncada if not Tomas!

Rog -- Why not get them both, along with Lester, Shields and Headley? Or maybe play Tomas at third and get one of the big outfielders? I see absolutely no reason they can't pull that off!

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2593/sad-day-giants-history#ixzz3KC0XhsaN

[Rog]

There's got to be something going on under the surface with Pablo, doesn't there? And the sad thing is that he probably made the wrong choice.

[klaiggeb]

I agree, Rog. There HAS to be something else in this equation that we are not aware of.

What that is, I have no idea.

But HE said he needed a change. Really.


Like I said, in the long run, this will likely benefit the Giants.

boly

[Rog]

Like I said, in the long run, this will likely benefit the Giants.

boly

Rog -- Me too. But I have to admit the realities of filling those three positions are very, very tough, even WITH Pablo's salary not in the equation.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2593/sad-day-giants-history#ixzz3KC5iu8gc

[rxmeister]

Pablo's comments have been weird. He said today that he needed a new challenge to stay motivated. If you can't get motivated by playing for a team with three recent World Series championships, you have a serious problem. Either Pablo is not telling the real reason he left, or he's a really confused young man who made a big mistake.

[Rog]

Jon Heyman now reports that the Giants made a pre-season offer to Pablo that was four years long and had a vesting option that could have taken the contract to 6/$91.5. I think it's safe to say now that while the Giants' 3/$40 initial offer was unrealistic, they ultimately weren't penurious in their pre-season attempt to re-sign Pablo. I don't think we can truly fault them for their effort.

I do think something isn't adding up here, and I just don't know what it is. IMO the Giants' pre-season offer appears to have been good enough that Pablo should have taken it. I think he should have taken their postseason offer.

Something else aside from money must have been at play here. Man, it's getting harder and harder to figure things out anymore.

[rxmeister]

People are speculating that perhaps he wanted to get to an east coast team since he lives in Florida, and others have speculated that his close friendship with David Ortiz had something to do with it. No matter the reason, it doesn't look like the Giants did anything wrong with the way they handled things. Guy just wanted to leave.

[Rog]

David Ortiz does seem to have played a big part, which is ironic, since it is David who now stands in the way of Pablo's becoming a DH. Pablo seems a logical candidate to replace David when he retires.

This talk about Pablo and DH-ing makes me wonder if Pablo's good third base defense has less life than I thought. Speaking of hot corner defense, one system ranked free agent Chase Headley #1 at the hot corner. I don't know how highly Pablo ranked (As we know, he's darn good), but he wasn't ranked in the top 5.

[rxmeister]

MLB Network had him ranked ninth which surprised me. As for DH, .279 with 16 HR may be decent for a Gold Glove level third baseman, but it's pretty paltry for a DH. Big Papi is 39 and has hit 65 homeruns in the last two seasons. Of course Pablo's numbers will go up playing at Fenway instead of AT&T.

[Islandboagie]

I'd probably rank Pablo somewhere near the top on defense at 3rd. But we're in an era of baseball where it seems not many highly touted prospects are third baseman. A lot of the third baseman are aging shortstops and to a lesser extent second baseman. Pablo is bad at defending bunts and doesn't cover the hole that well. It seems like everything to his left he has to dive for. Rog has fed us numbers about his ability to get to balls in the hole, but you can't tell me Pablo is anywhere near some past good fielding Giant 3rd basemen. Feliz, Mueller and Williams were all significantly better at fielding balls in the hole and fielding the bunt or slow roller.

[rxmeister]

Pablo's defense is definitely weight related. When in relatively good shape he's a Gold Glove caliber third baseman but when very heavy he's pretty bad. Most third basemen are far more consistent.

[Rog]

I'm not sure where you got the idea I posted numbers either good or bad about Pablo's going into the hole, Boagie. I don't see that as his strength, but I think he's OK at doing so. As you pointed out, he's not a great fielder of bunts.

All in all though, I thought he did a very nice job -- although Chase Headley is rated higher defensively. Headley is 30 and is likely at his defensive peak.

As for Pablo, I felt he played a better third base last season than Mueller did with the Giants. Feliz and Williams were very good.

The funny thing about Feliz is that after a strong defensive minor league career, he struggled his first season with the Giants. But in his sophomore season, he again righted the ship and had a good defensive career.

The Giants had one of the best defensive infields last season. With Chase Headley, it might be even better. And there are signs that Chase might bounce back as a hitter. After a very slow start last season, he hit .316/.796 in July, .233/.687 in August, and .279/.851 in September. Chase's walk rate had dropped off badly, but in August and September he had a combined 26 walks in 188 plate appearances, which is quite good. Perhaps he is getting back his eye for the strike zone, a talent that served him well earlier in his career.

[Rog]

Regarding Pablo's hitting, he was excellent in 2008, 2009 and 2011. Since then though, he has been good but far from great. As Mark mentioned, in recent years his batting has been weak for a DH, which could present a problem later in his Red Sox contract.

The more I think about Pablo's leaving, the less threatened I am by it. Much of his value last season was his glove, and that is likely to decline soon. Halfway through his new contract, I'll bet Pablo has declined a bit at the plate and a lot in the field. That would leave him well overpaid.