No more predictions

[klaiggeb]

Vin Scully said that, up until last night, for 7 consecutive starts, the Dodgers had to go to the bullpen by the 5th or 6th inning.

that their pen was beat up and they were trying to avoid using it last night.

And of course, in 13 innings, they used a lot of pitchers.

Will it make a difference? Well, one would think it would.

Except that Greinke and Kershaw are starting.

They're both extremely good so their bullpen is likely to get some rest.

On the other hand... if things worked out well for us... we'd be into their bullpen by the 6th.

Yeah.

And it's warming up in Hell, and pigs CAN learn to fly.

boly

[Rog]

Here's what I want to know. Is Kershaw "due" for a bad start!

[klaiggeb]

I wish.

He had that against the Cubs.

still, we ARE due to hit him, and beat him.

boly

[rxmeister]

He wasn't at his best, we had some chances, but in both typical Kershaw and Giants fashion, they did nothing with them. Blanco cost the Giants two runs with terrible base running decisions, and Posey hit into a killer DP. The Giants regulars look exhausted, but Bochy will run them into the ground this weekend futilely chasing a home game against the Pirates.

[Rog]

Mark -- Blanco cost the Giants two runs with terrible base running decisions

Rog -- Willie Mays-like throw by Puig, which showed why they say when well behind not to go unless you're SURE you're going to make it. On the other play, he may not have wanted to run Arias off third or he may have thought the shortstop would cover third and didn't want to run into an out. Who knows? Maybe he was even planning to try for third if the throw was made to first base as was suspected.

Anyway, two not very good plays at all.

The Dodgers didn't challenge it, but did anyone else think Arias might have been out at the plate? As seems to be the case with most runners, I'm not sure his front (left) foot touched home plate rather than to over the top of it. If the front foot didn't touch, I think Ellis may have tagged him before the back foot touched the plate. In fact, it kind of looked as if on the tag, Ellis knocked Arias AWAY from plate.

Hard to tell whether Arias skimmed the plate with either foot, but it probably had to be the first one for him to be truly safe. Can't remember which night it was, but I think Blanco was out at second base on a steal attempt because his lead foot went over the bag, not on it. It's happened lots of times, but not much seems to be made of it.

[klaiggeb]

I saw his toe skim the plate, Rog. I thought he was safe.

boly

[Rog]

That's good. I wasn't sure if his foot had just touched it or if he had gone over the top. Aren't you surprised how many guys slide over the base with their front foot? That's not the way Willie Mays did it!

[sfgdood]

the way his foot bounced back up it's clear a spike hit home plate and the Padres were pretty certain that was the case too because they didn't challenge

[Rog]

Good to hear clarification from you as well, Randy. Watched the fine MLB network documentary on Roberto Clemente, and it seemed that unless the play wasn't close, he managed to slide in with his front foot and hold the bag. That simply doesn't seem to be the norm these days -- now that the players have the cash.

Roberto won four batting titles. Cash won only one.

An oddity regarding Norm. He batted .361 in winning the 1961 AL batting title. Five years later he hit 82 points lower -- and still finished 7th.

[klaiggeb]

What I want to know is WHY these morons ALWAYS slide straight into a bag, or plate.

What happened to the hook slide? Or, in the case of home, the hand grab, where you slide PAST the plate, roll over and grab the bag, plate with a hand.

When I played, they taught us this slide in college, and I know for a FACT that when I used it in Adult, or games in the military, they never, ever tagged me because they were expecting a slide, straight-in.

boly

[Rog]

I think we see more creative slides than ever these days. How about when Juan Perez somehow got back to first base safely when the throw had him "dead?" As you mention, some fabulous slides at home plate.

But I just don't understand why a base runner costs himself a couple of feet by sliding OVER the bag.

[klaiggeb]

Creative slides, Rog? Wow! Are we going to disagree on this one!

All I EVER see are two types of slides; Head first, hands (and fingers) dangerously extended

2-Pop pop.

That's it.

Creativity left sliding... 20 years ago.

boly

[sfgdood]

I think Arias chose the right play...he was safe and the tag was proven via video to be way late

[klaiggeb]

Rog: I think we see more creative slides than ever these days. How about when Juan Perez somehow got back to first base safely when the throw had him "dead?" As you mention, some fabulous slides at home plate.

---boly says---

I think the problem with your statement, Rog, is that we define the word "slide" differently.

I don't call what Perez did a 1B a "slide," Rog.

He DOVE back to the bag from a virtually stationary position.

That's different than running with a full head of steam, and THEN sliding to avoid a tag.


No one does the hook slide anymore.

No one does the hand grab.

And if you watched Pence's feet when he scored on Duffy's squeeze, you'll see what I did. He's LUCKY he didn't break an ankle.

He slid spikes down, toes pointed forward.

THAT'S how ankles are broken, and Pence flat out got lucky.


In the hook slide, the side of the foot is flat on the ground, "instep" leading the way.

No spikes to catch, virtually no way to break an ankle.

So many skills have disappeared with the modern baseball player, that I am slack jawed and appalled.

boly

[Rog]

We see the comparison between today's game and the game of our youths quite differently, Boly.

As for sliding, let's use the great Willie Mays as our example.

We saw Willie sliding hard into the plate, not taking a creative way around the tag. Willie was excellent at knocking the ball out of the catcher's glove, but I don't remember his putting on creative slides to get around the tag and still get his fingertips on the plate.

How about going back into first base on a pickoff attempt? How many times did you see Willie slide? I'm thinking I may remember seeing his doing so once. Today's base runners take diving back to the bag as a matter of course, since it allows them a slightly bigger lead.

[klaiggeb]

I think the big difference in our discussion is that I don't call 'diving back to first,', a slide, Rog.

And using Willie isn't a fair example. He was among that 1% elite players of all time.

boly

[Rog]

Boly -- I think the big difference in our discussion is that I don't call 'diving back to first,', a slide, Rog.

And using Willie isn't a fair example. He was among that 1% elite players of all time.

Rog -- Diving into a bag carries an injury risk, but it's usually the fastest way to get there, which is certainly a big part of the objective. Even a hook slide helps to avoid tags but isn't the fastest route to the bag. If a player is confident he'll beat a tag, the pop up slide is the best slide, since it puts the runner in the quickest position to take an extra base.

I think I see far more creativity at the plate than we used to. Far more. An some pretty good moves to get back into first. Perez's move was fabulous. He was a dead duck whose slide (or dive) resurrected him.

As for Willie, no question he was one of the best base runners and fielders ever. But he could have been even better had he gotten the extra foot or two lead by diving back into the base and the extra foot or two in reach in the outfield.

Willie was a better base runner than base stealer. Had he extended his lead that extra foot or two, perhaps he would have been.

When one thinks of base runners, he usually wouldn't put Carlos Beltran in Willie's clases. But Beltran has been a FAR better base stealer than Willie. Willie was successful 77% of the time, which is good. Carlos has been successful 87% of the time, which is great. Willie stole 338 bases; Carlos has stolen 311. Carlos has nearly as many stolen bases as Willie had, yet he's been caught half as often. Willie has been thrown out 52 more times than Carlos. That's almost two games worth of outs.

How many more balls could Willie have caught had he dived to catch them, which he very rarely did? Might that have been another 50 more? As great as Willie was, by not diving back into first base or diving to catch balls, he likely cost the Giants at least four games of outs. Willie could have been even BETTER with just those two minor changes, things players do with regularity in today's game.

Don't get me wrong. I lived and died with each pitch Willie faced. When he dies one day, more than a little piece of me will die with him.

He's the greatest five-tool player ever. But he wasn't perfect. With a few minor changes, he could have been even better.

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