Lincecum Insight

[Rog]

Last night we may have gotten insight into how Tim Lincecum will be used now.  The Giants have thus far had a hard time finding a role, and he's pitched just 3 relief innings since leaving the rotation three starts ago.

Tim was up in the first or second inning last night when Ryan Vogelsong struggled early.  Perhaps Bruce Bochy is going to put a very short leash on some of his starters, getting Lincecum ready to take over for them before things get out of hand.

If Tim does have success as a reliever, it would seem much of it would stem from his rubber arm.  Tim might be able to pitch in every role from long relief to closer.  And he might be able to swing from one role to another on a game-by-game basis.  I could still see Tim's pitching a ton of innings out of the bullpen if he can get his act together.

For not though, he's something of an afterthought they don't yet know how to utilize.

[donk33]

Sept 11, 2014 7:46:46 GMT -5 Rog said:

Last night we may have gotten insight into how Tim Lincecum will be used now.  The Giants have thus far had a hard time finding a role, and he's pitched just 3 relief innings since leaving the rotation three starts ago.

Tim was up in the first or second inning last night when Ryan Vogelsong struggled early.  Perhaps Bruce Bochy is going to put a very short leash on some of his starters, getting Lincecum ready to take over for them before things get out of hand.

If Tim does have success as a reliever, it would seem much of it would stem from his rubber arm.  Tim might be able to pitch in every role from long relief to closer.  And he might be able to swing from one role to another on a game-by-game basis.  I could still see Tim's pitching a ton of innings out of the bullpen if he can get his act together.

For not though, he's something of an afterthought they don't yet know how to utilize.

dk..how do we know he has a rubber arm?? He completed very few games as a starter and doesn't have a long history of pitching consecutive days from the pen...

[Rog]

dk..how do we know he has a rubber arm?? He completed very few games as a starter and doesn't have a long history of pitching consecutive days from the pen...

Rog -- I guess we DON'T know for sure that Tim has a rubber arm, but I read as recently as yesterday that he does. Here are some indications:

. He both started and occasionally closed in between starts in college.

. Tim had several college games in which he threw a very high number of pitches. I don't know that this is his highest total, but I have verified one game in which he made 165 tosses.

. Tim doesn't need many warmups. He entered one postseason game after throwing only something like 8 warmup pitches in the bullpen. Might even have been just six.

. Despite his small frame and not icing his arm after starts, Tim has never missed a start due to arm problems.

. This isn't coming from the most objective of sources, but at the time it was the most experienced one: When I asked him if Tim could relieve between starts, he said that Tim could do so if it was on the day he would throw anyway.

As mentioned before, Tim's rubber arm might best be utilized by using him in a variety of roles -- all the way from long reliever (and possibly spot starter) to closer.

Can Tim excel in a role like that? I don't know. But many think he would flourish as a reliever, and at the time he was drafted, closing was considered by some scouts to be his best role.

Tim did work as a closer in the Cape Cod League after his sophomore season in college. That is a summer league for the top college players. Tim was a starter in that league -- until he got hit in the head with a line drive. When he returned to action, he was a closer and excelled at that role.

As mentioned in a previous post, Tim might be able to pitch in every role from long reliever to closer. He did something of a modified version of that in the 2012 post season.

.

[klaiggeb]

One question: How can we consider/discuss Tim closing when his WORST inning is always his first?

As Kruk says, takes him a while to find his release point.

boly

[Rog]

Boly -- One question: How can we consider/discuss Tim closing when his WORST inning is always his first?

As Kruk says, takes him a while to find his release point.

Rog -- I don't know whether Tim can close or not, but he did so very successfully in the Cape Cod Summer League.

The role I was describing for Tim varied all the way from long relief to closer, meaning he could be used in whatever role fit the situation. If he were unsuccessful at closing, he wouldn't close any more.

I have wondered how Tim could have improved his warmups in his lean starting seasons, since the first inning killed him the most. I don't know the answer, but I do know he didn't have much problem finding his release point when he relieved in the 2012 post season.

[klaiggeb]

Considering his long time, first inning problems, I'm betting the house that he has tried different, pre game warm up strategies.

And here I go again, beating the same drum I've always beat about Tim.

I contend it's NOT a pregame strategy that's the problem. His mechanics are so funky, that it takes many pitches for those mechanics to cozy up to the game's mound conditions.

I can tell you when I pitched, each and EVERY mound was different. And not just the forward slope, but also the flatness or lack of flatness around and behind your "NON DRIVING" LEG. In my case, the left.

But that forward slope can be a killer to adjust to.

boly

[Rog]

Based on what you are saying here, Boly, I would take warmups from the mound itself. Maybe the pitcher would have to come out really early to do so, or maybe it's only custom -- not rule -- that has starting pitchers warming up in the bullpen. But where there's a will, there should be a way.

One rule that WOULD be smart to implement is that the bullpen mound must be within a certain tolerance difference from the game mound or else the visiting pitcher would be allowed to warm up from the game mound. That would get the home team's grounds crew to shape up.

[klaiggeb]

May be, Rog, but you only get 8 pitches once you get to the mound, and you can't go to the mound before the umpires signal Play Ball.

So that won't work

boly

[Rog]

I was talking about warming up on the mound instead of the bullpen -- before the umpires are even out there. There may be a rule against it, but I haven't seen it.

Let's suppose there IS a rule against it (and there very well may be). The pitcher could go through his motion a bunch of times yet not release the ball before releasing his 8 pitches. I don't have any insight into Tim's thinking here, but, man, I would try some different things.

[klaiggeb]

I understand trying different things, Rog... but for him to do that, go out there early, would mean something like 45 minutes before game time.

It comes back to the same thing; goofy mechanics that are doable, but hard to keep in sync.

boly

[Rog]

Boly -- I understand trying different things, Rog... but for him to do that, go out there early, would mean something like 45 minutes before game time.

Rog -- In reality, I think he could perform his warm up right up until the time the umpires and managers huddle at home plate.

Getting back to the title of this thread though, I hated whatever insight we got into Lincecum last night.

Even before the game, my nephew foolishly asked me if Tim would be in the post season rotation. I told him the question wasn't whether Tim would in the rotation, but whether he would make the post season roster.

I told my nephew I thought he would. Now I'm not so sure. The concept of the relief pitcher is to be a fireman, not an arsonist.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2441/lincecum-insight#ixzz3DIIWclzl

[rxmeister]

I agree Rog. I think he pitched himself off the post season roster with that performance last night.

[Rog]

Boly -- May be, Rog, but you only get 8 pitches once you get to the mound, and you can't go to the mound before the umpires signal Play Ball.

So that won't work

Rog -- You're probably right, although I haven't actually seen that in a rule (not that I've looked for it). Even then, there would be a way around it, albeit less than a perfect one. Simply have Tim come out and pitch a little batting practice to get a feel for the mound. Can't imagine a rule against that -- not one couldn't be added later.

Here's my point. For 19 appearances -- 18 of them starts -- Tim posted a 3.09 ERA with a low hit rate, high strikeout rate and only a slightly high walk rate as a blemish, clearly an above-average starter. The only question was whether he could maintain it, which clearly he couldn't.

So why not think outside the box? Why not brainstorm and come up with as many possible improvements as possible? How much worse could he do than since he closed that 14-inning game?

I'm not sure what the rules will allow and what they won't. But if I were the Giants, I would certainly be researching it. I would look at every aspect of Tim's pitching and preparation, all the way from the possible causes of what is going wrong to what in particular it was that made him so highly successful.

From 2008 through 2011, was there a major league starter who pitched those four years and had a lower ERA than Tim? In other words, over the period of 2008 through 2011, Tim was arguably the best starter in baseball. In fact, one could make a very strong argument for it, especially if the 2010 postseason was included.

Suddenly it was his brother Shawn (figuratively speaking) who took the mound in his place. At 6-foot-3, 250, Shawn is about as physically different from Tim as one could imagine -- just as Tim's pitching suddenly became as different from what it had been as one could imagine. Almost WORSE than one could imagine. I've never seen a pitching career take such a plummet off such a high cliff.

So if I were the Giants, I would be looking under every stone and pebble to find an answer.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2441/lincecum-insight#ixzz3DOasYPbF