Quoting Spock

[klaiggeb]

As Mr. Spock said in Star Trek, IV, the Journey Home; "Double dumb-ass on you!"

Double dumb-ass on both of you, Bochy and Vogelsong!

I'd like to take my foot and bury it up your collective backsides, I'm so ticked at both of you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



But I'll start with Bonehead.

Bochy, you're an ass. An absolute, french fried, jelly donut filled, fat headed jack ass!

And those are the KINDEST words I can think of!!

What the hell are you thinking?

Morese is hurt, Pablo is out, and Pagan is out.

The weather says the yard is going to be HOT. Alive! 2 guys with pop are out, and what do you do in your infinate wisdom?

Putin a guy who WOULDN'T EVEN BE ON THE ROSTER if Belt was heatlhy!

ON the stupid scale, you just blew out the top end!

You've got a kid knocking the cover off the ball, coming up BIG in the clutch... and you sit him for Ishikawa!

I love Travis. I admire Travis, but seriously?



Crap! If I'm Susac, I'm asking myself, "what do I have to DO to get in the lineup with Morse and Pablo out?"

You've now taken me beyond exhasperation, Bonehead, you really have.

On the stupid scale, you're FAILURE to have Susac in the lineup ranks right up there with when you hit Blanco 4th & or 5th earlier this year!



You KNEW the park was live.

You KNEW that before the game even frickin' started!

You KNEW and you ignored it!


I ask you again; What in the hell were you thinking???

You weren't, plain and simple.


And Vogelsong. Captain stubborn.

Live yard, even Krukow said you could NOT fall behind and put the batters into hitters counts, and that you had to be aggressive to the strike zone.


And what do you do?

Nibbled and fell consistently behind!!

Way to give your guys a chance, dipstick!

Unforgiveable!

You made NO EFFORT to adjust to the conditions. None.

You were stubborn and pitched your NORMAL game,(nibbling in and out) regardless of the field conditions!

You put your head up your fanny, waddled out there, and served 'em up!

Nice job, Vogey. Nice job.

I expect more from you, I really do.

But I won't forget this lamoid effort, I will not!

You should get fined for EVERY hitter where you fell behind in the count!

As Kruk and Kuip say, "If Frank was here, you bet he'd fine him!"

An absolutely ticked off

boly

[Rog]

Boly -- Crap! If I'm Susac, I'm asking myself, "what do I have to DO to get in the lineup with Morse and Pablo out?"

Rog -- This is an example of why I rarely criticize, since we don't always know the circumstances as well as the manager does. According to beat writer Alex Pavlovic, "Susac admitted last night that he was a little worn down by the long night." As for Bochy, he said "it would have been tough to send Susac back out there after a game that lasted nearly four hours last night."

So now you know the reason Bochy didn't start Susac today. And I hope you're no longer beyond exasperation, "Boly-head." (Hope you liked my little play on nicknames there!)

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2433/quoting-spock#ixzz3CKE0LN1M

[Rog]

Boly -- You should get fined for EVERY hitter where you fell behind in the count!

As Kruk and Kuip say, "If Frank was here, you bet he'd fine him!"

Rog -- Can you imagine how that would play with the Players' Association (and how it should play with us normal humans, as well)?

First of all, unless a pitcher tries to groove every pitch, he's not going to avoid getting behind in the count on occasion.

Secondly, even if he DOES try to groove every pitch, he's still going to fall behind in the count on occasion.

I realize this is simply your frustration talking, Boly, but how would you like it if every time a student didn't learn immediately what you were teaching, you got fined? If Candee fined you every time you made a mistake in judgment at home?

Heck, if Barbara did that to me, I'd owe her my salary many months in advance!

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2433/quoting-spock?page=1&scrollTo=22081#ixzz3CKG071cj

[Rog]

By the way, pitching at Coors Field is a bit of a Catch 22. Pitches don't move as much, so they get hit harder unless they are located well. They travel farther once they are hit.

If a pitcher tries to be too fine, he risks putting extra runners on base, falls behind in the count, and throws a ton of pitches. If he isn't fine enough, he gives up four home runs in his game.

Pitching in Coors Field this week hasn't been easy. In 29 innings, the two teams scored 49 runs.

[klaiggeb]

Rog -- This is an example of why I rarely criticize, since we don't always know the circumstances as well as the manager does. According to beat writer Alex Pavlovic, "Susac admitted last night that he was a little worn down by the long night." As for Bochy, he said "it would have been tough to send Susac back out there after a game that lasted nearly four hours last night."

So now you know the reason Bochy didn't start Susac today. And I hope you're no longer beyond exasperation, "Boly-head." (Hope you liked my little play on nicknames there!)

---boly says---

Loved your play on words, Rog, but HORSE CRAP to Bochy's rationale.

HORSE....CCRRAAPP!

You could SEE Susac chaffing at the bit last night as he paced, to get back out there.


IMHO, that's just one more in a NUMBER of Bochy's out right lies this season, or his deft way of "mis direction."


BS!

boly

[klaiggeb]

Roger--By the way, pitching at Coors Field is a bit of a Catch 22. Pitches don't move as much, so they get hit harder unless they are located well. They travel farther once they are hit.

If a pitcher tries to be too fine, he risks putting extra runners on base, falls behind in the count, and throws a ton of pitches. If he isn't fine enough, he gives up four home runs in his game.

Pitching in Coors Field this week hasn't been easy. In 29 innings, the two teams scored 49 runs

---boly says---

Which is what I said, Rog. The field was LIVE, in the Old Coors fashion.


But that changes NOTHING.

N O T H I N G!

IMHO, we saw a stubborn, bullheaded pitching performance by Vogelsong. Nothing more, nothing less.


Kruk and Kuip and EVERY major league manager talk about "making adjustments."

Vogey didn't make ANY!


And for me, former ex player and ex coach, that just doesn't fly.

And worse, from professionals with the amount of years Vogey has in the show, I expect... no, I DEMAND better.

Then again, that's just me.

silly, silly me.

boly

[Rog]

Boly -- IMHO, that's just one more in a NUMBER of Bochy's out right lies this season, or his deft way of "mis direction."

Rog -- According to beat writer Alex Pavlovic, "Susac admitted last night that he was a little worn down by the long night." That would seem to indicate that Bochy wasn't lying. Managers have to be a little careful how they couch things, but I've never gotten the impression that Bruce is a liar.

[Rog]

Ryan doesn't have great stuff, yet he's made an incredible comeback to become a decent major league starter over the past four seasons. I don't see how he could have done that without making adjustments.

Sometimes I think we forget that even the most accurate pitchers aren't able to throw the ball right where they want it all the time. Did Vogelson at least TRY to make adjustments? My guess is that he did.

Little doubt he has made SIGNIFICANT adjustments since the beginning of the season, when he was awful. Perhaps last night he simply had too much to adjust to. It fell apart very quickly.

[Rog]

If I were a manager or pitching coach, I would probably expect more too. But as a fan, all I can do is note what I think I see. I think with just about EVERY pitcher there are times it doesn't seem they are making adjustments. Especially with a veteran of Ryan's caliber, I suspect they are indeed trying to do so, but may not be able to succeed in their effort.

Think of the times last season when Matt Cain quickly imploded. Apparently he too was unable to adjust quickly, even though I'll bet he tried to. Tim Lincecum has struggled to make adjustments over the past three seasons, but his rewards in doing so have been intermittent.

[klaiggeb]

Rog-Ryan doesn't have great stuff, yet he's made an incredible comeback to become a decent major league starter over the past four seasons. I don't see how he could have done that without making adjustments.

Sometimes I think we forget that even the most accurate pitchers aren't able to throw the ball right where they want it all the time. Did Vogelson at least TRY to make adjustments? My guess is that he did.

--boly says---

Rog, Vogey was one of my FAVORITE players BECAUSE of the road he took and perserverence he showed to hang in there so long when things were going sooo bad.

He had to make adjustments along the way, for sure.

But in Coors? On THAT night? I'll go to my grave claiming and believing he did NOT.


And you're right; he doesn't have great stuff. But he is, as Krukow calls him, a dart thrower. He has to work the corners or get hammered.

But... and here's the thing, you CAN'T fall behind consistantly in counts like he did the other night.

You just can't. Not unless you want to get lit up, and I know he didn't want that.

Compound his situation with that absolute moron behind the plate, Angel Hernandez.

His strike zone moves on every pitch.

With all that to be considered, you HAVE to be aggressive. Have to be.

Vogey was not, and THAT is why I claim he did nor more than pitch his normal game.

It's MY opinion, based upon nothing but my observation of hime these last couple of years that Vogey made a CONSCIOUS decision to "PITCH HIS OWN GAME," and IGNORE the elements.

And he paid for them.

To me, THAT'S stubborn.

To me, THAT'S foolish.

As I said; just my opinion.

boly

[Rog]

Ryan limited hitters to a .176 average in August. I'm just not buying in to this not making adjustments thing, unless he felt he was already on the right track based on his excellent pitching last month.

Here's another thing. Ryan threw nearly 68% strikes in the Rockies game, which is five percent higher than his nearly 63% on the season. It's not like he wasn't throwing strikes.

Here's what I think it was. Due to the altitude and the specific weather factors this series, Ryan's ball wasn't moving much. Based on the runs scored in the series, neither was much of anyone else's.

Ryan garnered only three ground balls, compared to 17 fly balls and 9 line drives. The 17 fly balls was a season high, and the 9 line drives came within one of his season high. His 3 ground balls induced was lower than all but two games this season. His 4 swinging strikes were lower than all but three games.

I just don't think his pitches were moving as well as usual, resulting in the ball staying up more and being easier to hit. No question he didn't pitch at all well. He yielded more runs than in any other start this season. But I think it was more due to atmospheric conditions than to his failure to adjust.

Ryan didn't get behind all that much. I think he just lost it in the 5th and 6th innings. He went to three balls only three times among the 27 hitters he faced, walking two and yielding a home run. He threw 18 first-pitch strikes, which meant his percentage of first-pitch strikes was about as much better than his season average as his overall strikes were.

Ryan just got hit. The 10 hits he yielded came on the following counts:

0-0 3X

0-1 1X

1-1 1X

2-0 1X

2-1 2X

2-2 2X

Among the three hits, only 3 came with Ryan behind in the count, and only one of those (2-0) came with him deeply behind.

Sometimes things just aren't quite as they seem, and I believe this is one of those times. It appears Ryan was at LEAST as aggressive as usual, and 7 of his hits allowed came when he was even or ahead in the count. 4 of the 10 came before he had thrown a single ball to the batter.

This is one of the reasons I like to look things up. The facts don't always support the perception. Again, I think this was one of those times. I think the adjustment Ryan needs to make is to have better stuff his next time out.

I think these numbers may throw the biggest wet blanket on the not being aggressive enough theory. On the season, Ryan has yielded 44% of his hits when behind in the count, 40% when even in the count, and 16% when ahead. That compares with 30% behind, 60% even and 10% ahead. Ryan actually gave up only about 2/3rds as many hits as usual when behind in the count.

I think the most logical reason why Ryan got hit was that his pitches weren't moving as much as usual (which was likely the cause of all the hitting overall in the series, by both teams). It appears difficult to me to argue that it was because he was being less aggressive than usual -- since all indications are that he WASN'T being less aggressive.

[klaiggeb]

Rog--Ryan limited hitters to a .176 average in August. I'm just not buying in to this not making adjustments thing, unless he felt he was already on the right track based on his excellent pitching last month.

---boly says---

Rog, I didn't say Ryan hasn't made adjustments during the year.

I said he didn't make adjustments FOR THIS ONE GAME.

That is all I was talking about.


It is my contention that he IGNORED/didn't care about the elements. That's why I called him "stubborn."

That bullheadedness, in that ONE game, cost him, and his team.


And again, I say that because he wasn't aggressive the to the strikezone. He pitched his normal, "Nibbling" game... which is Coors, with THOSE conditions, can be, and was, a fatal mistake.


boly

[Rog]

Boly -- And again, I say that because he wasn't aggressive the to the strikezone. He pitched his normal, "Nibbling" game... which is Coors, with THOSE conditions, can be, and was, a fatal mistake.

Rog -- How do we reconcile that with his being behind in the count on only three of the 10 hits he gave up? He was more even or ahead in the count that he has been on the season as a whole. If anything, it would appear he was being MORE aggressive?

What facts lead you to believe he was being less aggressive? He threw more strikes than usual. He threw more first-pitch strikes than usual. Not once did a hitter get a hit off him when he had three balls on the batter. He was more ahead in the count than usual when hitters DID get a hot against him.

Help me to see what you are seeing. Your vision on this one seems incongruous with the facts.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2433/quoting-spock#ixzz3CZpofDrX

[Rog]

Boly -- He pitched his normal, "Nibbling" game... which is Coors, with THOSE conditions, can be, and was, a fatal mistake.

Rog -- He had just four bad things (three hits and a walk) happen to him when he was behind in the count. How can it be that his "nibbling" game hurt him? I think his ball wasn't moving well (at least in part because of the conditions), and he got too MUCH of the plate.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2433/quoting-spock?page=1&scrollTo=22125#ixzz3CZr9BPne

[klaiggeb]

Rog--Rog -- How do we reconcile that with his being behind in the count on only three of the 10 hits he gave up? He was more even or ahead in the count that he has been on the season as a whole. If anything, it would appear he was being MORE aggressive?

What facts lead you to believe he was being less aggressive? He threw more strikes than usual. He threw more first-pitch strikes than usual. Not once did a hitter get a hit off him when he had three balls on the batter. He was more ahead in the count than usual when hitters DID get a hot against him.

Help me to see what you are seeing. Your vision on this one seems incongruous with the facts.

---boly says---Rog, you're cherry-picking your facts.

To how many hitters was he behind in the count?

THAT's what matters.

I recall, 3-1, 2-1 to so many I lost count.

And in a hot Coors field?

Why is that important? Because of the toll EACH pitch takes on the arm, and also the MENTAL toll that occurs when a pitcher falls behind in a hot yard.


You're discouting that. I am not.

That's why I contend I'm correct..

boly

[Rog]

You know how I have often said that things aren't always as they seem? This is a very good example of that. I'm sure it DID seem to you -- and perhaps others, as well -- as if Ryan wasn't being as aggressive as usual. But the facts aren't congruent with that point of view.

To figure it out, let's look at all the "behind" counts -- 1-0, 2-0, 2-1, 3-0, 3-1 and 3-2, then see how often Ryan reached those counts compared to how many times he has reached them this season:

1-0 33% in this game compared to 44% overall this season. Advantage this game.

2-0 11% in this game compared to 14% overall. Advantage this game.

2-1 15% in this game compared to 28% overall. Advantage this game.

3-0 4$ in this game compared to 4% overall. Tie.

3-1 4% in this game compared to 12% overall. Advantage this game.

3-2 7% in this game compared to 17% overall. Advantage this game.


The facts actually show that Ryan was MORE aggressive this game than usual. This is an example of why when someone says "I know what I saw," I get skittish. What we "saw" isn't necessarily what we actually saw at all -- or at least, not what actually happened.

So why did a good baseball man such as yourself think he saw a pitcher who was being less aggressive than usual when in fact the pitcher was being somewhat MORE aggressive? A couple of things come to mind:

. First, Ryan DID throw a few more balls as the game went along. Since this is the time when he blew the big lead he had, these situations have a disproportionate impact on what you REMEMBER, not necessarily on what you actually SAW.

. As a former manager and coach, you LOVE to see pitchers be more aggressive. You hate to see pitchers get behind in the count, since you realize pitchers don't perform as well once they get behind. Because of that, you may be more sensitive when you perceive that they're NOT being more aggressive.

Now, you may argue that the first point (Ryan got hit more later when he DID get behind the count more frequently) shows that Ryan WASN'T as aggressive as he should have been. What I suspect was that Ryan was getting more tired and had lost his stuff, contributing to his being out of the strike zone more often (and perhaps to batters swinging less often when he WAS outside the zone).

As a pitcher yourself, were you more or less aggressive when you got a big lead? I'm sure you weren't LESS aggressive. If you were throwing fewer strikes, it was because you weren't able to throw as many -- not because you were being less aggressive.

And that's what I think happened to Ryan. He began to tire, so his pitches weren't as crisp. Since they weren't as crisp, he wasn't able to throw them for strikes as consistently. And when he missed, the batters weren't as likely to swing -- both because when his team is way behind and his team needs base runners, hitters will be LESS aggressive (as you recommended, for instance, that Gregor Blanco should be) and because the less-crisp movement was easier to avoid swinging out the strike zone against.

In other words, I understand why you think you saw something that wasn't actually there. For a variety of reasons, we've ALL done that on occasion.

[klaiggeb]

Rog, I contend that the numbers, here, don't tell the story.

1-In which part of each inning did he fall behind in the count? Lead off guys? With 2 out?

2-That the percentages DON'T match with his season long percentages to me, are moot. He fell behind in THIS game when that was something he could not afford to do

**Rog** And that's what I think happened to Ryan. He began to tire, so his pitches weren't as crisp. Since they weren't as crisp, he wasn't able to throw them for strikes as consistently. And when he missed, the batters weren't as likely to swing -- both because when his team is way behind and his team needs base runners, hitters will be LESS aggressive (as you recommended, for instance, that Gregor Blanco should be) and because the less-crisp movement was easier to avoid swinging out the strike zone against.

--boly says--- I agree. And I said something to that effect in my post. The more pitches you throw + the more times you throw to 1B(believe it or not, it takes a heavy toll on your arm), the more tired your arm gets.

He threw too many pitches, I contend, because he was behind in counts, PLUS the mental stress of having to pitch in HIGH STRESS situations; A hot Coors yard.

That's why I don't care what his percentage of bad counts were in previous games... it was THAT game in which it cost him.

boly

[Rog]

Boly -- Rog, I contend that the numbers, here, don't tell the story.

1-In which part of each inning did he fall behind in the count? Lead off guys? With 2 out?

Rog -- Here is when and to what extent Ryan fell behind in the count:

2nd Inning, no outs -- behind 2-0.
2nd Inning, no outs -- behind 2-1.

3rd Inning, one out -- behind 2-1

4th Inning, two outs -- behind 3-2.
4th Inning, two outs -- behind 2-0, 2-1.

5th Inning, two outs -- behind 3-0, 3-1, 3-2.

6th Inning, no outs -- behind 3-2.
6th Inning, no outs -- behind 2-0, 2-1.

Man, you're making me work! I'm not sure what you're getting at here.


Boly -- 2-That the percentages DON'T match with his season long percentages to me, are moot. He fell behind in THIS game when that was something he could not afford to do

Rog -- One can't really afford to fall behind in ANY game. Batters hit better when they are ahead of the pitcher. The point is that Ryan got ahead of hitters better than he has over the course of the season, and yet you are criticizing him for not being aggressive enough. You're criticism is that he's USUALLY not aggressive enough. And yet, he entered the game with a 3.73 ERA, which is about league average.

Boly -- He threw too many pitches, I contend, because he was behind in counts

Rog -- But that wasn't he case here. He threw too many pitches because he gave up too many hits. Those hits came in the following situations:

Inning 1 -- 0-0 count

Inning 2 -- 2-0 count
Inning 2 -- 2-2 count

Inning 3 -- 2-1 count

Inning 5 -- 0-1 count
Inning 5 -- 0-0 count
Inning 5 -- 0-0 count

Inning 6 -- 3-2 count
Inning 6 -- 1-1 count
Inning 6 -- 2-1 count

Ryan gave up half his hits with the count even. He gave up one hit ahead in the count. And he gave up four hits when he was behind in the count. In other words, over half the hits he yielded came when he was even or ahead in the count. That's 60%.

Ryan gave up 40% of his hits when he was behind in the count. His season average is to give up 44% of his hits when behind in the count.

So what we see is that Ryan got ahead of more hitters, he threw more first-pitch strikes, and he gave up a smaller percentage of his hits when behind in the count. Virtually every indication was that he was MORE aggressive, not less, in the Rockies game last Wednesday.

Ryan threw too many pitches in part because he had a hard time finishing a couple of hitters off. But mostly he threw too many pitches because he gave up too many hits. And yet most of those hits came when he was NOT behind in the count. The most common count on which he yielded a hit was the very first pitch of the at bat.

In fact, as many of the Rockies' hits (4) came on the first pitch or with Ryan ahead 0-1 as came when he was behind in the count (4). The other two hits came on 1-1 and 2-2 counts. When a team gets as many hits on the first pitch or on the 0-1 pitch as they get with the batters ahead in the count, it's tough to argue the pitcher wasn't being aggressive enough.

If Ryan wasn't aggressive enough in that game, then he hasn't been CLOSE to being aggressive enough over the course of the season. And I just don't believe that is the case.

In the game in question, Ryan threw 2/3rds of his first pitches for strikes. That's easily higher than in any season in Ryan's career.

If Ryan was MORE aggressive than he usually is, how is it that he wasn't aggressive enough? I don't mean to be harsh, but I'm totally baffled on this one. What is it that you're seeing that I'm not, Boly?

You asked about how many outs there were when he fell behind. Well, he fell behind only 8 of the 27 batters he faced. Four of those came with two outs, one came with one out, and three came with no outs. I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but except that he didn't fall behind many hitters with one out, his falling behind seems to have been pretty evenly spread.

You throw more strikes than usual, you throw more first-pitch strikes than usual, and you fall behind fewer batters than usual -- and yet you weren't being aggressive enough? I'm at a loss.

Sometimes here I am baffled at how the evidence can go so strongly in one direction, and yet the conclusion goes the other way. This is one of those instances.

Isn't what you're saying kind of like saying that even though a team got more hits and total bases than usual, it didn't hit well enough? That could really be true pretty much only if the team didn't come close to hitting well enough overall. Or if you said that a pitcher pitched better than usual, but he didn't pitch well enough. Clearly he must be a lousy pitcher.

And while Ryan is no longer great, he isn't bad.

You may say that Ryan has NEVER been great, but I have never heard anyone comment on Ryan's being the most consistent pitcher in the 2011 season and through July, 2012. In only four of his 47 starts did he yield 4 or more earned runs. In only two did he yielded five runs. Not once in those 47 starts did he give up more than 5 earned runs. That's fabulous consistency. I'll bet the number of live ball pitchers who have duplicated that is relatively small.

As of August 8, 2012, he was leading the majors with a 2.22 ERA, and his ERA over the full 2011 season and through July 2012 was 2.50. Clayton Kershaw won both the 2011 and 2012 ERA titles, yet Clayton's ERA wasn't quite as low (2.54) over that period. And even more on point, Clayton wasn't NEARLY as consistent as Ryan was.

Didn't know that, did you? I don't think there are many who do. His agent should.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2433/quoting-spock#ixzz3Chnb6xFV

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[klaiggeb]

Rog, we aren't going to agree on this. We're just not.

You're pulling up numbers which 'seem' to support your case, but I contend, do not.


Not a problem, my friend. We just see it differently.

boly

[Rog]

I'll go along with our not being able to agree, but I'm still trying to learn here. What specifically was it that Ryan did that wasn't being aggressive -- or do you simply feel that he's usually not aggressive enough? Again, I'm not arguing. I'm simply trying to understand your thinking better than I do now.

I won't follow your next post, unless it is with another question or two your answer might raise. Right now my idea isn't to convince you of anything here, but I guess in a way, have you convince me -- or at least to understand better.

[klaiggeb]

Rog. The best way I can explain it is like this:

Whether I want to or not, it's part of my nature to view each game, every play, every at bat as if I were the coach. I don't do it on purpose, it just sort of happens.'

As I watched him in the early innings..1st.. 2nd, he "appeared" to me that he was trying to get ahead in the count by challenging the strike zone.

But as the innings wore on, it occurred to me that THIS performance was looking no different than all of his others; that he was nibbling all of a sudden. Which he hadn't been doing earlier.

From a coaches perspective, in this case, mine, I felt then, and do now, that he "forgot" where he was; that he was no longer cognizant of elements and the hot yard in which he was pitching. He had a massive brain cramp; He went 'stupid.'

His focus returned to what it always has been; nibbling.

Also from my coaching perspective, without Tulowitzki, Gonzalez and Wellin, there was only ONE bat in that lineup to fear; the 1Bman (for some reason, I can't remember his name!!! Stinking old age!!!)

Your numbers show that he didn't have that many situations in which he lost count leverage. My perspective is that nibbling, and either missing or getting hit, caused his situation to snow ball.

There is NO WAY THAT lineup should have lit him or any of our pitchers up. No way!

You look at the numbers and say..."here's what happened."

My observations come during the game, not afterward.

I am the coach "in" the game, so to speak, so 'during' the game I note these observations as if I was Righetti and I ask, "why? Why doesn't Righetti see what I'm seeing?

Dave might not agree with me either.

then again, no 2 coaches always agree.

Anyway, I hope that helps.

boly

[Rog]

I went back and looked pitch by pitch. Don't worry, I'm not commenting on our previous discussion. I did come across a few things of interest, even if not bearing on our previous discussion:

. Location-wise, Ryan made a lot of good pitches.

. The Rockies hit more of those pitches than I expected.

. The umpire had a generous strike zone, and completely missed one pitch, a curve ball well outside that he called a strike.

. An at bat that hurt Ryan badly was McHenry leading off the 6th. It was a nine-pitch battle, with McHenry ending it with a home run. Ryan made several poor-location pitches, with the last one being one too many.

. Vogelsong pitched really well until he got the first two batters in the 5th inning. Then he suddenly lost it, going walk, single, homer, homer, homer, single and single, bracketed around a strikeout.

In the overall, that last fact seems the most important -- and the most shocking.

[klaiggeb]

I, too, was shocked by what took place.

That whole series was straight from the Twilight zone.

No way they score that much... but they did.

And suddenly, for no reason, our staff couldn't get their guys out.

Strange. Really strange.

boly