Angel Hernandez

[klaiggeb]

Once again, Hernandez showed why he shouldn't be just reprimanded for his performance, but suspended or outright fired.

Last night was just a microcosm of what he always is; terrible.


Joe West stinks, but Angel makes him look like the best ever.

His strike zone floats throughout the game, and he ALWAYS comes up with some ridiculous moment, like he did on the Machi balk last night.

I've watched that play a dozen times and I STILL DON'T see the balk.


He's incompetent, he's inconsistant, and he needs to be fired.

But of course, his union will protect him, and thus, baseball is stuck with him.

boly

[Rog]

Boly -- I've watched that play a dozen times and I STILL DON'T see the balk

Rog -- I've posted here many times that I greatly dislike the balk rule as its written, but under the rules, the play was indeed a balk. Kruk and Kuip explained it well.

First, the rule. To me, a balk should be called when a pitcher unfairly tries to deceive a runner. Instead, balks are called based on rules technicalities.

As an example, a left-handed pitcher is able to make moves toward home plate, but as long as he steps at least 45 degrees away from home plate and toward first base, he has made a legal move. Other, lesser moves that aren't designed to deceive the runner but may be more like a hiccup are called balks.

If a pitcher bluffs a throw toward first base without first stepping off the rubber, it's a balk. If he does the same thing toward second or third, it is a legal play. They finally outlawed the old fake to third, throw to first move.

If a pitcher steps back off the rubber, it's a legal play. If he steps off in front of it or to the side, it's a balk.

Now, the balk itself. The balk was called because Machi stood on the rubber in a windup position, then -- without stepping back off the rubber -- moved into the stretch position. He wasn't trying to fool anyone. He gained no advantage. But technically, it was a balk, and under the rules, it was correctly called.

It appeared Hernandez had a horrible night behind the plate, and perhaps he should simply have let the violation go. But what does it say about an umpire's integrity if he doesn't enforce the rules because he's already getting heat and will add to it by making the correct call?

Tough night for Hernandez, and his call simply made it tougher. But on that one call, he maintained his integrity and got it right.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2365/angel-hernandez#ixzz36zMgBpkV

[klaiggeb]

Rog-Rog -- I've posted here many times that I greatly dislike the balk rule as its written, but under the rules, the play was indeed a balk. Kruk and Kuip explained it well.

Tough night for Hernandez, and his call simply made it tougher. But on that one call, he maintained his integrity and got it right.

---boly says---

Rog, Kruk was not on the show, and neither Kuiper nor Wynn could, or did explain it.

I STILL haven't seen the balk, and I disagree that he got onto the rubber in the wind up position.

I say he wasn't in a wind up position because of where his hands were.

That play did NOT have to be called, and I'll take it one step further; the ONLY reason he called it was because the Giants had been barking at him all night long.

Again, my predjudice against umpires. They cheat. Or, if they're not cheating, they allow bias to enter their calls.

boly

[Rog]

Boly -- Rog, Kruk was not on the show, and neither Kuiper nor Wynn could, or did explain it.

Rog -- Kruk was there, but he was cleverly disguised as Randy Winn. Kuip talked about Randy Winn as a basketball player, and he did indeed play guard opposite Steve Nash at Santa Clara University. Randy's a really good guy, and I had the pleasure of throwing the opening jump ball of a San Ramon High alumni game in which he actually jumped center. At the time,he was playing in the minor leagues for Tampa Bay IIRC correctly. I thought he was decent on the show last night, raw but not intimidated.

Boly -- I STILL haven't seen the balk, and I disagree that he got onto the rubber in the wind up position.

I say he wasn't in a wind up position because of where his hands were.

Rog -- The problem was that he was on the rubber somewhat facing the plate rather than facing third base as one would do in the stretch position. I think you make a good point about the hand position, but we have also seen pitchers who begin their windups with their hands held that high.

As I pointed out, I think balks should be called on illegally deceptive movements -- not ticky tacky rules --, but the way the rule is written, that was a balk.

Boly -- That play did NOT have to be called, and I'll take it one step further; the ONLY reason he called it was because the Giants had been barking at him all night long.

Rog -- You're reading his mind now? Don't you think Hernandez took a lot of heat from Bochy without throwing him out? I was surprised how much he took. Kuip speculated that Bruce was even trying to get thrown out.

As for Machi, my guess is that he said a magic word or two. I can understand his frustration, but what is he, a child? Umpires tolerate a lot more from coaches and players than they would from their own kids. If an umpire would discipline his own kids for doing something, why shouldn't he discipline an adult?

Boly -- Again, my predjudice against umpires. They cheat. Or, if they're not cheating, they allow bias to enter their calls.

Rog -- You're a very good man, Boly, but don't you think it is wrong to paint a group of people with a broad brush? I have worked with a lot of umpires, and I have never seen one who cheated. And very few if any who allowed bias to enter their calls.



Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2365/angel-hernandez#ixzz36zVoTP3G

[islandboagie]

I didn't see a balk, but it doesn't really matter. The Giants could have all the calls go their way and they still wouldn't win right now.

I actually give Hernandez credit for calling a review of Hunter Pence's close call at first the previous night. He didn't have to, but he did just to be fair.

[klaiggeb]

Rog-Rog -- You're reading his mind now? Don't you think Hernandez took a lot of heat from Bochy without throwing him out? I was surprised how much he took. Kuip speculated that Bruce was even trying to get thrown out.
---boly says---

Not a case of reading his mind, Rog. It's like "holding" in the NFL. It's only called when it's flagrant.

Same with balks. They are USUALLY, Balking Bob excluded called only when they are flagrent, or meant to decieve the runner.

IF Machi balked, and I still don't think he did, it wasn't flagrent, and thus, didn't need to be called.

It was ticky-tacky, called by a guy whom I contend, was getting even.

You give Hernandez more credit than I do. I don't think he thinks that far ahead, to consider Bochy would chew his fanny.

EVERYONE chews his fanny every time out. That should tell those in charge something.

But obviously, it doesn't.

boly

[klaiggeb]

Rog--- You're a very good man, Boly, but don't you think it is wrong to paint a group of people with a broad brush? I have worked with a lot of umpires, and I have never seen one who cheated. And very few if any who allowed bias to enter their calls.

---boly says---

I need to explain by what I mean when I say "cheat."

I don't mean to imply they bend the rules. Likely most dont.

But I DO imply... no, I'll say it boldly, they ARE biased against players, teams, and situations.

My example for bias would be the first game in this series.

TWO DIFFERENT strike zones.

Even Glenn Kuiper and Ray Fosse admitted such.

Bias-Angel Hernandez, angry at the Giants barking at him, so... even though he's within the rules as HE reads them, calls a ticky-tacky balk.

Situation example: Balking Bob. EVERY time there is the slightest INKLING, ol Bob is throwing that fist into the air when IF it's a balk, it's too minor to call.

Are they ALL like that? No, I don't think they are. I've seen some well called games this year.

Allen and I seem to be the only ones who think, some, many need to be reprimanded and/or fired.

But it never happens..


I paint them all with a broad brush because I've had way too many bad experiences with them, I've watched them screw up too many obvious calls.

And I mean OBVIOUS calls!

For example; that play at 1B a couple of years back when that kid, Galarraga(?) had a no hitter, or was it a perfect game, BLOWN because the umpire was sitting on his head!

And he said so later!

Too late for the kid, Popeye.



I don't know where to find the stat, but I recall what they showed on TV last night, prior to the game, Bochy had challenged 24 plays, and had 16 reversed.

That's 66.7%!

That's an outrageous number to have screwed up!

I've long, long...LONG contended, contrary to the opinion of most others, that umpires do NOT get it right most of the time.

In fact, I've always said it's not even close!

In fact, at 67% (rounding up and THROWING OUT THE OBVIOUS CALLS), they get it WRONG, (and I'll be conservative here) between 1/3 and 2/3 of the really close plays!

That's ridiculous!

Hey, I've umped at a very, very VERY small level.

It's a bitch of a job, and I don't like it. And frankly I stunk at it.

Then again, I never wanted to umpire. I was a counselor at a summer camp and that was part of my job.

But never once, not ONCE did I make a call, good or bad, for a kid I liked or didn't like.

And trust me, there were many, many MANY spoiled rotten, entitled little snot noses whom I would love to have wrung up!

But I didn't.

It's called honor.

It's called integrity.

And in today's world? Those 2 words are often looked upon as 4 letter words.


Come on over to my school some day, Rog, or anyone else on the board.

I'll buy any of you lunch.

Sit with the teachers awhile and hear the nonsense we've had to put up with from helecopter moms and dads; tiger moms, and parents who just don't "love" theire kid, they are IN LOVE with their child!

It's a sickening sight.


Thus, my logic; Way too many of the adults I deal with have neither honor nor integrity.

Further, in fact, it has been estimated that anywhere from 30%-35% of the people in the workforce are either incompetent, lazy, dishonest, or all of the above!

Why would we expect umpires be any different?

I contend they are not.

They are in a position to exercise COMPLETE AND UTTER power over others, and they take advantage of their power and do so.

You know the old saying, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely!"

I know you won't agree, and that's okay.

But my offers still goes for you, or anyone else on the board.


Come to my school for a day, or even a couple of hours.

Lunch is on me.

boly

[rxmeister]

I believe Kuiper said on the air that Angel Hernandez should be fired. He took some flak for that, but the guy is a joke.

[Rog]

Boly -- Allen and I seem to be the only ones who think, some, many need to be reprimanded and/or fired.

But it never happens..

Rog -- We don't know what the requirements are to fire an umpire, but I am virtually sure they can be reprimanded, like virtually any employee. What we also know is that they are evaluated on virtually every game.

As for their not being able to be fired, I agree it doesn't happen often. But I personally know a major league umpire who was fired. I PERSONALLY know him, so I KNOW it happened. Whether it still does, I can't say.

Does it happen often enough? Maybe not, but then again, I don't go over every game comparing the umpire's calls with PITCH/fx, which is what major league umpire supervisors do with them. I don't see every game an umpire officiates.

I've never been involved in evaluating umpires -- although former Giants Assistant GM Ralph Nelson has -- but I have been involved in going over game tapes with Pac-12 basketball referees, including a few who have refereed in the NCAA Final Four. One of them was written up in the Wall Street Journal.

Here was my experience. At first some of the old-timers were resistant. But it didn't take long before each of the referees was rather open-minded to the evaluation, which was done in the referee's locker room immediately after the game. Two of them went on to the MBA. One of those two was fired or resigned after half a dozen years or so in the NBA.

My point is that the opinion here seems to be that the umpires call a game, eat the post-game spread (which is part of the reason many become heavy) and go to their hotel rooms until they come back for the next game. In reality, they review tapes, often with their supervisors.

Bottom line: The umpires almost CAN'T be as bad as they are made out to be here. MLB has its choice among thousands of umpires who would LOVE to umpire in the major leagues. What are the chances they make a lot of mistakes in their hiring -- especially if they know the umpires will be protected over long careers?

If the umpires as truly missing a lot of calls -- and there is no question they miss some, perhaps many -- then the job must be hard to do. Remember, MLB gets it choice of THOUSANDS of umpires and get to watch a large pool of umpires over several years before promoting them to the majors.

Just stop and think about the logic that they will make as many bad choices as this board seems to think. Do you think for instance, Boly, that if your school has the luxury of watching a teach teach over half a dozen years before hiring them, that they will make a lot of mistakes in their hiring.

I'm sure they DO make some mistakes. But then, they haven't watched the teachers they hire perform over a period of years.

Logic says that if the very top umpires in the world miss too many calls, the job is a difficult one. I'll bet some of the MLB umpires have umpired for 15 years at one level or the other by the time MLB hires them.

If we look at these three facts, we can see that the MLB umpires should be very, very good compared to the difficulties of the job:

. Very large pool to choose from.

. Many years to evaluate performance before hiring.

. Heavy review once the umpire is hired.

I can't think of a ONE of our companies that has such a luxury before and after they hire employees.

[Rog]

Boly -- I don't know where to find the stat, but I recall what they showed on TV last night, prior to the game, Bochy had challenged 24 plays, and had 16 reversed.

Rog -- They sometimes show it on TV. IIRC it's slightly below 50% of calls that get reversed.

Boly -- That's 66.7%!

That's an outrageous number to have screwed up!

Rog -- Actually, Boly, it isn't. Think of all the plays that AREN'T challenged. Only a small percentage ARE. And the challenges are made only after instant replay from multiple angles indicates there is a (apparently 50/50) chance the call will be reversed. For only 50% of a small percentage of calls to be reversed isn't really that bad.

As I have often said here, I wish umpires didn't miss ANY calls. But they are human, they have a difficult job, and there is no way they can get them all right.

It is frustrating that the people who think the umpires are incompetent haven't umpired much. And the one who think some may not be doing their job well but not nearly as many as is generally believed here has officiated many games in several sports -- and has been involved in evaluation at the Division 1 college level.

I'm not saying umpires are perfect or even that they couldn't get better. I'm simply saying the job is much tougher than we seem to acknowledge.

I've BEEN there. I'm in the best position to judge. Not the only position. We can all watch games. But the BEST.

Just as Boly is in the best position to judge what goes on in schools. Just as pretty much any of us is able to judge what goes on in our professions.

I've made multi-million decisions that were far more IMPORTANT than the calls I made as a sports official. But many of those big dollar decisions were EASIER than some I made on the field or court. In my business decisions, I usually had plenty of time to analyze. As a sports official, I had to make my judgment in a second or so.

Guess what? I worked very hard at it and I had extreme integrity. But I didn't get them all right. Not even close.

[Rog]

I hadn't thought about this until now, but I must have made over 5 million calls as a sports official.

I officiated over 5000 games, and I'm pretty sure I made at least 100 calls per game. That's 5 million of them.

Of course, I missed about 3 million of them.

[islandboagie]

Making arm and hand gestures for a few hours a day doesn't equate as a difficult job, IMO.

Of course, it's probably a more difficult than I lead on. But, every time I've seen umpires leaving stadiums in the minor or majors it's, in most cases, before the players and coaches.

I've seen umpires after spring training games at eating establishments and they normally have a pretty big appetite.

Rog, you often reference your basketball ref friends to prove whatever point you're trying to make. But show me a basketball ref that has the same physique as Joe West. Obviously basketball referees have a certain physical requirement they need to meet, whereas umpires obviously don't.

I'm sure there are some umpires who like to keep in shape, perhaps to make them better at their jobs, but its clear MLB doesn't have a requirement to stay in shape. So how do you know they have any requirements beyond that?

[Rog]

Boagie -- I'm sure there are some umpires who like to keep in shape, perhaps to make them better at their jobs, but its clear MLB doesn't have a requirement to stay in shape. So how do you know they have any requirements beyond that?

Rog -- I don't know what requirements they have. I do know that MLB has thousands of umpires to choose from and that they review their umpires, with IIRC four supervisors doing so.

With the soccer going on right now, let me tell you a soccer anecdote that involves officiating.

Because international refs and players don't always speak the same language, a referee involved at a high level with British soccer was asked to come up with a system indicating when a player had been warned and when he had been ejected. The referee (Ken Aston) said he'd think about it that night.

As Ken drove his MGB home from work, he hit pretty much all the traffic lights. Suddenly it dawned on him: yellow for caution, and red for stop. Hence the system of yellow and red cards was born.

And as you know, that's about as complex as any referee can get. It would probably be over the heads of umpires.

[Rog]

Boagie -- Making arm and hand gestures for a few hours a day doesn't equate as a difficult job, IMO.

Rog -- They're traffic cops? By the way, my favorite hand signal an umpire makes is the sweeping of the hands and arms to one side to indicate a player was off the bag.