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Closers
May 21, 2014 10:06:50 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on May 21, 2014 10:06:50 GMT -5
I know as I write this, I'm going to catch hell from all, or most of you on the board, but it's not something I haven't said before, so it's not a reaction to last night.
Last year I pointed out that Romo's "no dot" slider no longer has the same bite as it had in 2012.
I've seen the exact same thing this year.
Once in a while he snaps off a dandy, but for the most part, they just roll up there.
Each and every time he closes, I hold my breath, and watch carefully, wondering HOW IN THE WORLD he's getting people out..
Last night, for the 2nd time in the last 3 or 4 opportunities, he got lit up by a bad pitch.
2 or 3 lazy, hanging sliders he got away with.
Then, he hung another, and WHACK! Game over.
I've said this before, I'll say it again; he no longer has the stuff to close.
He doesn't.
I also don't believe he has the same pin-point command that he once had.
This is another point I've been making for the last year +.
Has he been successful?
No question.
Bochy has to stay with him, but I'm not sure we can win the NL with him closing as he wears down as the year progresses.
I'm not a big Casilla fan, but I'd rather a hard thrower out there closing because, as Kruk said last night, you light up the gun at 96 and you can get away with a lot of mistakes.
Throw 89, and roll sliders out there, and you have little margin for error.
So, boagie, and everyone else, I'm fair bait.
Hammer me.
Just remember, this isn't a reactionary post, it's the same thing I've been saying since May of 2013.
boly
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Closers
May 21, 2014 10:51:40 GMT -5
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Post by islandboagie on May 21, 2014 10:51:40 GMT -5
Why would I hammer you? I might be wrong, but I believe I was the one to first point out Romo's diminishing slider. If not, then I saw it at the same time.
I've always said someone else should close, not so much because Romo can't do it, but more because Romo is a nice option in clutch situations in any inning, not just the 9th.
Now I come to the glaring issue of your post..how can you not like Casilla? Since becoming a Giant his ERAs have been 1.95, 1.74, 2.84, 2.16, and this year he's at 1.42.
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Closers
May 21, 2014 11:07:50 GMT -5
Post by Rog on May 21, 2014 11:07:50 GMT -5
Back when Sergio supposedly didn't have the "makeup" to be a closer and was only a set up man, he likely had more ability to close than he has now. He had more consistent stuff and better command.
The slider puts significant strain on the arm, and let's also not forget that Sergio has a recurring problem with his landing knee, a problem which again cropped up recently.
The Giants closer of the future is likely Derek Law. In the meantime, they would likely benefit from closer by committee. Both Sergio and Santiago Casilla have shown an ability to close, and Jeremy Affeldt and especially Javier Lopez are probably the best bets to close out against lefty hitters. Heck, the way he's pitching now, even Jean Machi looks like he could do the job.
Here are my rules for using a team's best relievers:
. Don't use them more than two days in a row.
. Don't automatically use a guy just in a close situation. He likely would benefit from regular work even if no save opportunities present themselves.
. Don't necessarily use your top guy to complete a two-run or particularly a three-run save. Any of the five relievers mentioned above should be able to save a high percentage of these "easy" saves.
. For the most part, protect your relievers' arms as much as you protect leads.
. Use your relievers' arm aggressively to win today's game, but don't forget there is (usually) still a game tomorrow and the next day.
. To the extent options allow it, fill the 12th spot with a rotation of fresh pitchers so that a 13th pitcher won't be necessary except in emergencies. Major league position player benches are short enough as it is.
. As a general rule for relievers and starters alike, don't intentionally walk hitters except in very specific situations. Pitch them carefully, yes. But don't walk them and allow them a one-ninth better chance to hit again.
. If you really want to go lefty-righty to take best advantage of your bullpen, consider using your pitcher as a left or right fielder for a batter or two.
. Don't automatically make lefty-righty switches. Analyze the specifics of the matchup before doing so.
. In general, treat your pitchers as the declining assets they are. Use them in ways that keep their depreciation to a minimum.
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Closers
May 21, 2014 11:31:45 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on May 21, 2014 11:31:45 GMT -5
Boagie--Why would I hammer you? I might be wrong, but I believe I was the one to first point out Romo's diminishing slider. If not, then I saw it at the same time.
I've always said someone else should close, not so much because Romo can't do it, but more because Romo is a nice option in clutch situations in any inning, not just the 9th.
Now I come to the glaring issue of your post..how can you not like Casilla? Since becoming a Giant his ERAs have been 1.95, 1.74, 2.84, 2.16, and this year he's at 1.42.
---boly says---
Boagie, I honestly thought you'd disagree with me. We must have seen it at the same time.
You're right about Casilla. He's been tremendous for us!
I can't explain why I've not been a big fan. I really can't, and that is not fair on my part.
I think his sometimes lack of control scares me away... and really, until this year, he's had good control.
I'll watch more closely.
Thanks for pointing out the error in my thinking.
Old, sometimes hard headed,
boly
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Closers
May 21, 2014 11:36:12 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on May 21, 2014 11:36:12 GMT -5
Rog--. Don't automatically make lefty-righty switches. Analyze the specifics of the matchup before doing so.
. In general, treat your pitchers as the declining assets they are. Use them in ways that keep their depreciation to a minimum.
--boly says---
Rog, I totally agree with you.
But here's the problem; Major League ego.
Continually over the years, they have proven that their ego, usually, gets in the way.
Pitchers have this THING about "Knowing my role."
Thus, managers are compelled to "name" a closer.
That's why I don't think closer by committee will ever work. Egos.
So it's not that I disagree, it's just that we're dealing with people, and that creates the problem.
boly
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Closers
May 21, 2014 12:33:58 GMT -5
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Post by allenreed on May 21, 2014 12:33:58 GMT -5
I think we're overreacting a bit here. Wasn't this Romo's first blown save this year? It happens, even to the best.
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Closers
May 21, 2014 13:05:03 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on May 21, 2014 13:05:03 GMT -5
Allen-I think we're overreacting a bit here. Wasn't this Romo's first blown save this year? It happens, even to the best.
---boly says---
It's his second in the last 2 or 3 opportunities.
But the whole point of my post was what I said last year; he doesn't have closer stuff and shouldn't be our closer.
I gave my reasons why; his slider no longer snaps, consistently, as it once did, and his strikezone command has declined.
boly
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Closers
May 21, 2014 18:31:58 GMT -5
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Post by islandboagie on May 21, 2014 18:31:58 GMT -5
Boly- Boagie, I honestly thought you'd disagree with me. We must have seen it at the same time.
Boagie- We may have seen it at the same time, but I posted it here first.
I don't disagree with you about his slider, but you might be entering panic mode a tad too early if you think he should be replaced as the closer immediately.
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Closers
May 22, 2014 0:34:14 GMT -5
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Post by allenreed on May 22, 2014 0:34:14 GMT -5
Can "closer stuff" be absolutely defined? If you believe it can, please do so. Must one have a certain velocity? I think Trevor Hoffman might disagree. A snapping slider? Again Hoffman, and Mariano Rivera would disagree. I think closer stuff would mean being successful in a large percentage of your save chances. Romo has been especially successful for a team that plays an inordinate number of close games, and wins a good percentage of them. I'm not ready to throw Sergio overboard just yet, especially when his likely replacement had to be helped off the field tonight.
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Closers
May 22, 2014 1:22:44 GMT -5
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Post by islandboagie on May 22, 2014 1:22:44 GMT -5
They didn't have a great fastball or slider. But each did have a pitch that was nearly unhittable. Hoffman had his changeup and Rivera had the cutter. If you take those pitches away from each of them, they likely aren't as successful. Romo's slider is still decent, but it's not at the same level it once was. No longer at the level of Hoffman's changeup or Rivera's cutter.
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Closers
May 22, 2014 2:28:55 GMT -5
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Post by allenreed on May 22, 2014 2:28:55 GMT -5
The slider's still there. It's fine. As I say, you guys are overreacting.
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Post by rxmeister on May 22, 2014 7:03:38 GMT -5
I agree with Allen. I don't think Romo's no dot slider has lost anything, I just think after seeing it for years , batters have realized that they tend to break out of the zone and don't swing. However, this has been offset by Romo improving his change up, which has made him tougher against lefties. As for Tuesday night, we know what tends to happen to sliders at Coors Field. Maybe after hanging a couple, Romo and Hector should have thought up a different plan of attack. I doubt we'll have to worry about this much anyway, as he's a free agent and I think the Giants think Casilla can be the closer next year with the Giants saving some money.
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Closers
May 22, 2014 9:51:42 GMT -5
Post by Rog on May 22, 2014 9:51:42 GMT -5
Mark -- I think the Giants think Casilla can be the closer next year with the Giants saving some money. Rog -- With Law and Hembree on the way, Sergio is almost a sure no-sign. We discussed over the winter how the good, young crop of pitchers should help the Giants deal with their budget and that Sergio would likely be the first victim of this strategy. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2274/closers#ixzz32SJpsWlK
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Closers
May 22, 2014 10:09:48 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on May 22, 2014 10:09:48 GMT -5
Allen--Can "closer stuff" be absolutely defined? If you believe it can, please do so. Must one have a certain velocity? I think Trevor Hoffman might disagree. A snapping slider? Again Hoffman, and Mariano Rivera would disagree.
---boly says---
Yes, it can be defined, Allen.
And you cited two perfect examples.
Closer stuff means, for me, a devestating kill pitch.
Rivera had the cut fastball, Hoffman, a killer change up.
I'll add another; Rod Beck. A splitter that just wasn't hittable.
Romo no longer has that.
boly
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Closers
May 22, 2014 10:11:40 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on May 22, 2014 10:11:40 GMT -5
Mark--I agree with Allen. I don't think Romo's no dot slider has lost anything,
---boly says---
Wow! are we seeing two different things, guys.
I beg ya'all to watch more closely.
Can he locate it as consistantly as before? I say no.
Does it snap like before? I say, no, not even close.
wow, is all I can say.
boly
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Closers
May 22, 2014 10:38:47 GMT -5
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Post by allenreed on May 22, 2014 10:38:47 GMT -5
I think you're looking for trouble where there is no trouble, boly. Sergio hung a couple the other night and it cost him. But I certainly haven't seen a pattern. Remember also that this was in the thin air of Denver. I do worry that Bochy uses Romo too much. If we're not going to sign him for next year, then work Casilla in once in awhile.
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