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Post by donk33 on Mar 17, 2014 12:33:45 GMT -5
The spring training season is closing down and very little talk about how the Giants are doing......some of the things that I noted...Perez looks too good and probably will be sold(ie Jason Ellison)...Pagan is not getting many at bats...Sanchez is not catching many innings......Noonan has a neck as long as Belt...not much hitting, some serious pitching choices have to be made...Petit has been getting lots of chances and not cashing in...Kontos doesn't look too good...is Zito still available?? ...Hicks might be in the lineup....not much being shown by the minor leaguers in camp...let's hear from you insiders...
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Post by allenreed on Mar 18, 2014 1:13:03 GMT -5
Not an insider, but I believe Pagan is having back issues. Perez has indeed looked good as has Hicks. I haven't seen Petit, but the numbers look bad. Hard to get good break on the ball in Az, Petit.depends on his breaking ball being precise.
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Post by Rog on Mar 18, 2014 13:30:07 GMT -5
Allen -- Not an insider, but I believe Pagan is having back issues. Perez has indeed looked good as has Hicks. I haven't seen Petit, but the numbers look bad. Hard to get good break on the ball in Az, Petit.depends on his breaking ball being precise. Rog -- Very good point about Petit. I hadn't thought of it. Pagan, Morse and Belt have had health issues, along with Scutaro, of course. Belt has been a healthy player, but the other three have had poor health histories and are a concern. The issues with Pagan and Morse add to the importance of the fourth and fifth outfielders. Perez has indeed looked very good, and there are rumors afloat that he will be released. Hicks has played exceptionally well, but he has no other history of hitting at all. His career average in limited at bats is .133. If he falls off, he'll likely take over for Arias as the primary infield backup or perhaps take Scutaro's place in the starting lineup. If he continues to hit, of course, he'll be released along with Perez. Buster Posey is having a good spring, but the Giants have no openings at first or third bases, so he too will likely be released. If Madison Bumgarner stumbles, he will remain the opening day starter, but if he continues to pitch well, he too will be released. Hector Sanchez hasn't caught all that much, which means the Giants are preparing him to start, since they will likely be releasing Posey, and Andrew Susac doesn't yet have major league experience. Oh, wait. It's not yet April Fool's Day. Sorry to be premature. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2202/spring-training#ixzz2wL2ZmVwr
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Post by klaiggeb on Mar 19, 2014 10:02:46 GMT -5
boly says--- It's hard to get too excited about Spring Training... and I don't.
But I DO like the fact that the starters seem to be pitching very well, and that inspite of so many split squad games, we are winning.
I also like how incredibly focused the group seems to be. Not just optimistic, but focused.
It would appear that many took last year very personal, which I, as an ex coach, really want to see.
I like it when players play with a chip on their shoulders
Like all teams we have things to be concerned about; Morse and Pagan's nagging owees, Romo's general ineffectiveness.
And oh, let's not forget Scutaro, who looks like the 2014 poster boy for "Bad Back" magazine.
As much as I HATE to admit it, but I'm beginning to think that last year WAS a result of being both mentally, and physically tired from the long 2012 season.
boly
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Post by Rog on Mar 19, 2014 19:22:19 GMT -5
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Post by rxmeister on Mar 21, 2014 7:54:14 GMT -5
Why would they release Juan Perez? He's got several things going for him in the race for fifth outfielder. He's right handed, while the number four outfielder, Gregor Blanco is a lefty. That gives him an advantage over Tyler Colvin, who's a lefty as well. Number two, he's outplayed Colvin this spring. Number three, a couple of the starting outfielders have had health issues this spring, and they're both right handed. Also, Colvin has an injury history and supposedly flunked a physical with Baltimore this past offseason. Colvin's advantages are some previous success at the big league level, and some may think Perez is redundant with Gary Brown around, being that they're similar players, and Brown has had a good spring. I see Perez at least starting the year as the number five outfielder.
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Post by Rog on Mar 21, 2014 12:25:42 GMT -5
Mark -- Why would they release Juan Perez?
Rog -- Clearly they wouldn't. I think Don's just back on his Jason Ellison kick.
I admire Don's compassion for Ellison, who actually had a shot as the Giants' center fielder before the Randy Winn trade, but the fact is that Jason didn't hit at all after the Giants gave up on him.
As for other guys the Giants supposedly gave up on, very few have gone on to do much. The best has been Nate Schierholtz, who has developed into a pretty good platoon player. Coming back to Perez, if the Giants still had Nate, he and Perez might be able to form a satisfactory platoon. If the Giants still had both Nate and Cody Ross, they would be pretty well set at one position.
I think I'd rather have Nate and Ross than Mike Morse and Gregor Blanco, but mostly because of Mike's health issues. Based on cost I would rather have Morse and Blanco at a combined $8.5 million than Ross and Nate at a combined $14.5 million. And now I see that it is ROSS, not Morse, who is going on the disabled list.
The only thing we know for sure is that you just never know.
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Post by islandboagie on Mar 22, 2014 11:28:18 GMT -5
Anyone care to makes sense out of sending Hembree down?
Bochy says Hembree just needs to work on his secondary pitches and Bochy wants pitchers who can pitch more than 1 inning. This might all be true, but this isn't even the final cut.
I think there's more to this. Perhaps Hembree pissed someone off.
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Post by donk33 on Mar 22, 2014 12:17:15 GMT -5
Mark -- Why would they release Juan Perez? Rog -- Clearly they wouldn't. I think Don's just back on his Jason Ellison kick. I admire Don's compassion for Ellison, who actually had a shot as the Giants' center fielder before the Randy Winn trade, but the fact is that Jason didn't hit at all after the Giants gave up on him. dk...the facts are that Jason never hit coming off the bench, but he did start to hit with the other teams when he started...however, as soon as he started to hit he was traded...,and then became a bench player again....the comparison I tried to make was that Ellison hit .44 in Fresno and didn't get to play after his call-up to the Giants...he went to spring training and led the team with a .390, and was traded before they got to SF....he had a great start when he first came up and then went into a slump and was never given a chance to work out of it......I have always been partial to the Giants' farm hands getting a shot before going into the dumpster for some ones castoff...
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Post by Rog on Mar 22, 2014 17:05:49 GMT -5
dk...the facts are that Jason never hit coming off the bench, but he did start to hit with the other teams when he started...however, as soon as he started to hit he was traded...,and then became a bench player again.... Rog -- Let's look at this one logically. If he began to hit and was starting, why would he be traded? And if he was starting to hit, why would the acquiring team put him back on the bench? You might be able to prove to us that your statement is true, but since it is illogical, I'd say the burden of proof lies directly on your shoulders. Don -- the comparison I tried to make was that Ellison hit .44 in Fresno and didn't get to play after his call-up to the Giants...he went to spring training and led the team with a .390, and was traded before they got to SF.... Rog -- You make your best point here. On the other hand, Todd Linden hit better at Fresno and Randy Elliott hit better in spring training than did Jason, and they didn't exactly go on to marvelous careers. I'm just using isolated examples here though, so I'm not really refuting your point. I think the better comment on my part would be that the Giants were no doubt considering Jason's entire body of work, and -- pun intended -- he came up a little short on that. Don -- he had a great start when he first came up and then went into a slump and was never given a chance to work out of it...... Rog -- In reality, Jason had a Puig-like April his rookie season, hitting .457. Then he became human, hitting .261, .262 and .233 the next three months. Worse, his OPS kept declining, from 1.201 in April to .733, .660 and .569. Jason did indeed have a slump -- and it lasted three months. That's when the Giants traded for Randy Winn. Don -- I have always been partial to the Giants' farm hands getting a shot before going into the dumpster for some ones castoff... Rog -- I'm looking forward to your long list of players they didn't give a chance to, cast off, and then went on to become highly productive players elsewhere. I agree with your sentiment here. I just don't see where the Giants often fail to give a guy a shot that is in accordance with the tools he brings to the majors. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2202/spring-training#ixzz2wiwS1D1v
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Post by donk33 on Mar 22, 2014 23:10:54 GMT -5
dk...the facts are that Jason never hit coming off the bench, but he did start to hit with the other teams when he started...however, as soon as he started to hit he was traded...,and then became a bench player again.... Rog -- Let's look at this one logically. If he began to hit and was starting, why would he be traded? And if he was starting to hit, why would the acquiring team put him back on the bench? You might be able to prove to us that your statement is true, but since it is illogical, I'd say the burden of proof lies directly on your should Don -- the comparison I tried to make was that Ellison hit .44 in Fresno and didn't get to play after his call-up to the Giants...he went to spring training and led the team with a .390, and was traded before they got to SF.... Rog -- You make your best point here. On the other hand, Todd Linden hit better at Fresno and Randy Elliott hit better in spring training than did Jason, and they didn't exactly go on to marvelous careers. I'm just using isolated examples here though, so I'm not really refuting your point. I think the better comment on my part would be that the Giants were no doubt considering Jason's entire body of work, and -- pun intended -- he came up a little short on that. Don -- he had a great start when he first came up and then went into a slump and was never given a chance to work out of it...... Rog -- In reality, Jason had a Puig-like April his rookie season, hitting .457. Then he became human, hitting .261, .262 and .233 the next three months. Worse, his OPS kept declining, from 1.201 in April to .733, .660 and .569. Jason did indeed have a slump -- and it lasted three months. That's when the Giants traded for Randy Winn. Don -- I have always been partial to the Giants' farm hands getting a shot before going into the dumpster for some ones castoff... Rog -- I'm looking forward to your long list of players they didn't give a chance to, cast off, and then went on to become highly productive players elsewhere. I agree with your sentiment here. I just don't see where the Giants often fail to give a guy a shot that is in accordance with the tools he brings to the majors. dk..we had this stupid argument before....if he was so bad, why did four organizations sign him after he left the Giants....he was a kid who couldn't hit off the bench...something similar to Barry Bonds....you never understand the human side of baseball such as a kid losing his confidence when he sits on the bench, etc....so it is useless to try to explain it to you....also, things happen to kids...you have to give them their shot when their hot in the minors, not bring them up, sit them on the bench until they lose their timing and then give them a try.....also, two glaring examples of complete miss use of kids were Frandsen and Rohlinger...both called up the day they were beaned and thrown into the lineup the next day....one with a broken jaw....so have your fun, use your second guessing to say they didn't do anything, but there is always more to the story than stats sheets...but you only can recite numbers....kids discarded...Nathan, Grilli, Liriano, Wheeler,Mueller, etc....if you want to see the game logs to show what happened to Jason...with Seattle...20 games off the bench...4-1-2 as a starter and back to the bench....4-1-1 as starter, back to the bench....for 32 games...4-1-4 as starter..back to the bench...last 2 starts 3-01, 3-0-2 back to bench...off to the Reds...finished the year with 9 st arts...27-5-7...gone....next year called up by the Texans...started 2 games with the last one he 4-2-2...and back to the bench...next year he went to camp with the Phils but was cut....
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Post by rxmeister on Mar 23, 2014 10:09:30 GMT -5
...and a discussion about spring training and Juan Perez becomes yet another Jason Ellison argument. At least it didn't become an Obama argument! Back to the subject, Juan Perez hit a tie breaking three run homer yesterday to further cement the fifth outfielder spot for the Giants. Brandon Hicks went deep again, and was 3 for 3, so I don't see how he's not going to make the team as well. I just hope they don't make a decision based on Tony Abreu's contract being guaranteed. Adrianza and Hicks have greatly outplayed him this spring. Six innings of one run ball from Tim Hudson as well, and he's 5 for 6 at the plate this spring, with the one out being a diving catch by an outfielder. Bochy said he will definitely be used as a pinch hitter this year. Giants are 14-9 this spring.
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Post by rxmeister on Mar 23, 2014 13:20:17 GMT -5
That didn't take long. Tony Abreu was just released. Later they sent out Kontos and Runzler.
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Post by Rog on Mar 24, 2014 9:59:05 GMT -5
In reality, none of the candidates for the 6th infielder is very strong (although Brandon Hicks has had one heck of a spring).
Over his career, Hicks has shown excellent pop for a backup infielder, but if he played regularly, he would likely lead the league in strikeouts. In his minor league career, Hicks has struck out nearly once every three at bats.
Adrianza is a very slick fielder who despite a .310 average at Fresno last season has been a good-hit, no-field prototype. The Giants really seem to like him, so if he could just get a few hits ...
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Post by klaiggeb on Mar 24, 2014 15:33:11 GMT -5
--Mark--That didn't take long. Tony Abreu was just released. Later they sent out Kontos and Runzler.
--boly says--- I don't think anyone questioned whether Abreu could hit, but his defense... Sheesh! Cement hands; iron hands, stone hands..."Clank!" kind of sums him up for me.
We aren't the first team to have given up on him, and, and this is just opinion, I'm guessing those hands, or lack-there-of, are at least partly the reason.
Hicks worries me. He's 28, and his offensive history is not good. I mean, when you pull up his minor league numbers OTHER THAN 2013, whenever he got more than 300 at bats, he's a .230 hitter.
All of a sudden, he's learned to hit? Maybe... but I'm not convinced.
I'm going to trust Bochey and company to know best, but at least until I see him, I prefer Adrianza.
boly
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Post by klaiggeb on Mar 24, 2014 15:37:54 GMT -5
--Rog---In reality, none of the candidates for the 6th infielder is very strong (although Brandon Hicks has had one heck of a spring).
Over his career, Hicks has shown excellent pop for a backup infielder, but if he played regularly, he would likely lead the league in strikeouts. In his minor league career, Hicks has struck out nearly once every three at bats.
Adrianza is a very slick fielder who despite a .310 average at Fresno last season has been a good-hit, no-field prototype. The Giants really seem to like him, so if he could just get a few hits ...
---boly says----
all good points, Rog, and I would add one other; Hicks is 28 and HAS a long, and not particulary good, offensive history.
Adrianza is only 24, and still MAY develop into a decent hitter.
heck, Ozzie Smith did. Never great, but for a SS, pretty darned okay!
Same with Omar Vizquel. Both stunk when they first came to the show.
You could consistantly knock the bat out of their hands.
Could happen here. Who knows.
Plus he can run more than some... IF...IF you can trust his minor league SB totals.
boly
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Post by islandboagie on Mar 24, 2014 17:22:40 GMT -5
The game has changed and the way hitters are taught has changed. There's no more slap the ball and run offense. You hafta hit with some power, and if you can't, there's probably some juicing Dominican or Venezuelan who can.
Sadly, Ozzie Smith and Omar Vizquel would likely have a difficult time sticking at the major league level in today's game long enough for them to make the adjustments.
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Post by allenreed on Mar 25, 2014 2:35:49 GMT -5
Is there really an argument to be made for Obama at this point, Mark? The damage he's caused is likely irreparable.
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Post by allenreed on Mar 25, 2014 2:44:01 GMT -5
If one of our biggest worries is our sixth infielder, things must be looking pretty good. No matter who the choice is, barring a major injury or two, how much is he going to play? Especially when your fifth infielder can play all four positions.
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Post by Rog on Mar 25, 2014 10:02:13 GMT -5
Boly -- Adrianza is only 24, and still MAY develop into a decent hitter. heck, Ozzie Smith did. Never great, but for a SS, pretty darned okay! Same with Omar Vizquel. Both stunk when they first came to the show. You could consistantly knock the bat out of their hands. Rog -- Perhaps that is because each showed fine plate control even before the rest of their hitting caught up. The year before Ozzie finally hit over .258 at the age of 30 (He hit .276 that year), Ozzie walked 56 times with only 17 strikeouts. Little different era, but that is TREMENDOUS plate control. Vizquel had nearly as many walks as strikeouts while in the minors. He had 47 walks to only 35 strikeouts in his second full season with Seattle -- even though he hit only .230. Boly -- Could happen here. Who knows. Rog -- Ehire showed decent bat control his first full season in the minors. That eroded until last season, when he walked 54 times to 76 strikeouts between AA Richmond and AAA Fresno. He's only 24, so he still has time to put it together. My own opinion is that he'll hit enough to have a major league utility career based primarily on his fine glove. It's possible he could hit just enough for his glove to make him a starter for a few years. With Hicks' being a strikeout king, I think Ehire will be the one who makes it as the Giants' sixth outfielder. Here's a possible hopeful for Ehire. I believe he has hit four home runs between his September call up last season and his spring training this year. That's one more than he's hit in any one season at any stop in the minors (although he did have six between Augusta and San Jose in 2011). Boly -- Plus he can run more than some... IF...IF you can trust his minor league SB totals. Rog -- Ehire's reputation is having slightly above average speed. He did steal 33 bases at San Jose in 2010, but he was thrown out 15 times, which means he didn't really help the Little Giants in that regard. Last season he was 17 for 25, which means he hurt his team slightly more than he helped it. His best season by far was 2011, when he stole 16 times in 20 attempts. Ehire will do some pinch running -- probably a fair amount of it -- but he's only an average base stealing threat. Can steal you a base; can get thrown out trying. Probably an above-average base runner overall, although I'm making only an educated guess on that one. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2202/spring-training#ixzz2wz9xu4V7
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Post by islandboagie on Mar 25, 2014 10:21:03 GMT -5
If Scutaro were healthy I'd agree with you. Unfortunately he's not and might not be for some time. With that considered, your 6th infielder now becomes the 5th infielder. Still not our biggest worry, but a legitimate one.
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Post by klaiggeb on Mar 25, 2014 14:50:40 GMT -5
--boagie--- If Scutaro were healthy I'd agree with you. Unfortunately he's not and might not be for some time. With that considered, your 6th infielder now becomes the 5th infielder. Still not our biggest worry, but a legitimate one.
---boly says--- I agree, Boagie, not our biggest worrry, but still legit.
It's my opinion, however, that Scutaro is done. Or if not done, he'll never be close to 100% again.
His back didn't heal in the off season, and there is no reason to believe that it will heal now.
At his age it sounds like one of those things that is what it is... and he simply learns to live with it.
Which suddenly makes 2B on our team look like a black hole. I mean, since Kent... we've went out and signed guys but they don't seem to be able to last more than a season or so.
Sanchez, and now Marco?
Sheesh!
boly
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Post by islandboagie on Mar 25, 2014 15:02:22 GMT -5
Yup, and this is why we both mentioned the importance of beefing up our bench during the off season. Unfortunately Sabean didn't read our posts.
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Post by Rog on Mar 26, 2014 8:43:30 GMT -5
Don -- dk..we had this stupid argument before....if he was so bad, why did four organizations sign him after he left the Giants.. Rog -- No one said Jason Ellison was bad. What was said was that he wasn't a starting-caliber player. That Jason HAD to be signed by three four organizations after leaving the Giants shows how little THOSE organizations thought of him. Jason actually got by far is best shot with the Giants, starting 97 games for them. Among his other four organizations, he started 22. For his last major league organization, the Phillies, he didn't play even one major league game. After leaving the Giants, Jason had 107 major league and 926 minor league at bats. He hit .234 in the majors and .249 in the minors. You're absolutely right that Jason hit .406 with Fresno in 192 at bats in 2006. Yet he still managed to bat only .277 after the Giants sent him out that time -- IN THE MINOR LEAGUES. We didn't see Jason hit in the those 192 at bats, but it appears very likely he was one lucky hitter, which -- along with the small sample -- appears to cause the Giants to discount what does appear to be a fabulous batting average. He hit .450 on balls in play, which does give the appearance of a very lucky hitter. When is the last time you saw a hitter with a .406 batting average on balls in play? In 1941 when Ted Williams became the last batter to hit .400 in the majors (.406), Ted's batting average on balls in play was just .377. Do you think Jason hit the ball well enough in the 171 at bats when he put the ball in play to justify anything close to a .450 BABIP when Ted hit just .377 on balls in play while becoming the last major league player to hit .400? Highly unlikely, to the point of being almost impossible. Jason's .406 average was almost certainly based more on luck than on solid contact. His .754 minor league OPS was bad enough; his .650 in the majors was downright poor. Jason hit even worse in the majors and minors for his other four teams than he hit for the Giants. According to Baseball-Reference, Jason played at just below the level of a replacement player during his time in the majors. He played at that level with the Giants, and he played at that level with his other four teams. The closer we examine Jason Ellison before, during and after his time with the Giants, the clearer it becomes he wasn't a good enough hitter to be a major league starter. If he had been, surely one of his other four teams would have spotted it. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2202/spring-training#ixzz2x4fMeXli
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Post by Rog on Mar 26, 2014 8:49:47 GMT -5
Don -- next year he went to camp with the Phils but was cut. Rog -- I think with this one sentence you pretty well summed up why Jason Ellison didn't become a consistent major league starter. The Phillies had him for two years and didn't play him in a single major league game. Jason is still just 35 years old, and yet he hasn't played in the majors in six years or the minors in four. Does that sound like a true major league starting-caliber hitter? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2202/spring-training?page=1##ixzz2x4nTpiXV
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Post by Rog on Mar 26, 2014 8:52:45 GMT -5
Boagie -- If Scutaro were healthy I'd agree with you. Unfortunately he's not and might not be for some time. With that considered, your 6th infielder now becomes the 5th infielder. Still not our biggest worry, but a legitimate one. Rog -- VERY nice use of the subjunctive, and a good baseball point too. Neither Adrianza nor Hicks has yet shown he is good enough for a SIXTH infielder, let alone a fifth. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2202/spring-training?page=1#scrollTo=19278#ixzz2x4oXEyTS
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Post by Rog on Mar 26, 2014 9:02:40 GMT -5
Boly -- I mean, since Kent... we've went out and signed guys but they don't seem to be able to last more than a season or so. Rog -- I believe you overlooked Ray Durham, Boly. Ray was a very good player in all but one of this six seasons with the Giants. With an impressive .797 career OPS with the Giants, I believe he is one of their most underrated players. Ray was a clank with the glove and he had injury problems, but as a Giant, he was worth two wins a year. Certainly I think most are pleased with the play of Hunter Pence, and thus far Hunter has been worth about three wins a season. That an astute observer as you overlooked Ray's five fine seasons with the Giants seems to me to be a pretty good demonstration of how undervalued Ray was during that time. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2202/spring-training?page=1#scrollTo=19279#ixzz2x4pGU2ki
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Post by Rog on Mar 26, 2014 9:10:04 GMT -5
Boagie -- Sadly, Ozzie Smith and Omar Vizquel would likely have a difficult time sticking at the major league level in today's game long enough for them to make the adjustments Rog -- I've got to disagree with you on this one, Boagie. Teams are much smarter now than they were when those guys came up. They would better see the bat control as exhibited by the fine K/BB ratios. They would see that while Omar hit just .220, .247 and .230 over his first three seasons, he was worth four wins according to Baseball-Reference. They would see that while it wasn't until his 7th season that Ozzie Smith hit above .258, he was worth between three and four wins per year because of his glove and ability to get on base. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2202/spring-training?page=1#scrollTo=19280#ixzz2x4rigQGB
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Post by Rog on Mar 26, 2014 9:18:01 GMT -5
Boagie -- this is why we both mentioned the importance of beefing up our bench during the off season. Unfortunately Sabean didn't read our posts Rog -- After each of the past two seasons the Giants have chosen to spend some big bucks to keep their existing players and have had precious few dollars available for the bottom of the bench. I'm not sure how much Brian's not reading our posts had to do with the situation. I believe that both seasons he left enough money in the coffers that the Giants could fix their biggest need or two at the trade deadline. That's what they did in 2010, adding players such as Pat Burrell, Javier Lopez, Ramon Ramirez and Cody Ross after the season started. They did so in 2011, adding Carlos Beltran. And again in 2012 with Scutaro and Hunter Pence. Last season they didn't add, but that appears to be because the Giants judged they weren't a good enough team last season for it to make an important difference. I don't recall a single one of us saying when the Giants re-signed Marco, "This signing is going to hamstring the Giants with regard to bolstering their bench." Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2202/spring-training?page=1#scrollTo=19281#ixzz2x4tn3KfM
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Post by islandboagie on Mar 26, 2014 10:51:11 GMT -5
Rog -- I've got to disagree with you on this one, Boagie. Teams are much smarter now than they were when those guys came up. They would better see the bat control as exhibited by the fine K/BB ratios.
Boagie- I figured someone might disagree. But, I remain steadfast in my comment. If a hitter is batting .250-.260 you might be correct, but .220 is a little too low to stick around for 3+ years. That team would likely upgrade to someone with a little pop or with more consistency. The offensive expectations of the shortstop and catcher have escalated since those two played. That's not my opinion, that's a fact.
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